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Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)
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[Deleted User] wrote: »Okay, but at birth, nobody has a gender. They have a sex (or, rarely, have a genetic anomaly and are intersex).
Gender isn’t a concept I get too worked up about tbh, but I understand where people who do support the concept of gender are coming from when they speak of a person’s birth gender - it’s not something which can be observed at birth any more than a person’s sexual orientation can be observed at birth, or a multitude of other characteristics which cannot be observed at birth, but it’s an identity that people are born with, which can develop and manifest and express itself in any number of ways throughout a person’s life. Some people are of the opinion that it manifests in childhood and is fairly cemented by the time children reach puberty.[Deleted User] wrote: »This seems to be back in the territory of dresses & frills = female and mud & blue stuff = boys, though?
It’s firmly in that territory, which is not in and of itself a bad thing IMO.[Deleted User] wrote: »The woman who gave the talk i linked seemed very certain that not all trans people experience dysphoria.
Gender dysphoria is "a concept designated in the DSM-5 as clinically significant distress or impairment related to a strong desire to be of another gender, which may include desire to change primary and/or secondary sex characteristics."
How can something that causes clinically significant distress or impairment not impede someone living their lives in any way, shape or form? It seems like a person's life not being impeded in any way, shape or form would explicitly exclude them from a dysphoria diagnosis.
Because both of these are relatively new concepts - the idea that not all people who are transgender experience gender dysphoria, and the criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria itself, what was once categorised as gender identity disorder according to the DSM, is no longer categorised as a disorder. If a person doesn’t experience distress, then it’s true as you point out - that excludes a person from being diagnosed with gender dysphoria.[Deleted User] wrote: »Do they relate to masculine and feminine gender identity, or to male and female sex? If the former, can a very "butch" woman bring a case if she believes that she has been discriminated against for not presenting as more feminine?
They could apply any way you like really, whatever you’re comfortable with. I don’t mind. However in Irish law they only apply one way, and that is to sex -
18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.
Anyone can pursue a case if they believe they have been discriminated against on the basis of their gender identity, it doesn’t have to be as specific as the example you gave, but there is a famous case that sticks with me (albeit from the US), in which it was determined that a woman was unlawfully discriminated against on the basis that she didn’t behave as she was expected to, being a woman and all
It’s a great example of employment discrimination and I recommend anyone should look it up. I love her reasoning for pursuing a complaint -
In an interview after the decision, Hopkins said of her case: "The explanation I got about why I didn't make partner didn't make sense to me. … I filed suit not because of the money, but because I had been given an irrational explanation for a bad business decision."[Deleted User] wrote: »I'm not of the opinion that people should not be protected from discrimination, by the way. But where there are apparent conflicts between different minority groups insofar as rights go, we need to be able to talk about them and decide whether the conflict warrants any action.
I don't want a transwoman to be excluded from any job on the basis of their gender identity - but I think it's reasonable to exclude them on the basis of their sex from jobs where any non-trans male would be excluded, and to exclude them from some female-only activities or spaces (where the owners or operators of that space believe it necessary), on the grounds that they are not female.
And I do realise that for some trans people, that will be distressing. But it is equally distressing for women to share their spaces with male people, in some situations. And that's before you get to sports, children, regretful detransitioners, or the fact that "I am a transwoman" could be (and has been) used as a cover for male abusers in some situations. Which, again, puts trans people in a very ****ty position. I'm not coming from a place of thinking a trans person's life is easy, or that they're only transitioning for ****s and giggles, and I don't want anyone's lot to be made harder for no reason. But I also think those issues are a lot more than "no reason", and trying to shut down any discussion about them doesn't do any good—least of all for trans people.
I would like trans people to have less of a hard time, generally, and I would also like safeguarding measures for women and children to be protected, and women's sports to be fair. I don't see those as conflicting wants.
Sure, I get where you’re coming from, and Irish Law doesn’t consider it unlawful discrimination in many of the scenarios you’re describing, it explicitly allows for discrimination as a means of achieving a legitimate aim (now what constitutes a legitimate aim is dependent upon context in each case of course), and similar conflicts of interest have arisen in cases where there are competing rights such as competing rights in cases involving parents and their children, or employers and employee for example. People appear to overlook the fact that there are nine protected characteristics which can give rise to a conflict of rights between parties involved. Acknowledging the idea of granting people rights and protections in Law, doesn’t take away rights from anyone else. It’s the role of the Courts to determine what rights apply in each and every case, and it’s the role of the Courts to balance competing rights.
Personally speaking (and this is no reflection on you, but a general comment), I’d hate to live in a society where I could no longer lawfully discriminate against feminists on the basis of their political beliefs which I don’t share, or men who wear skinny suits… always make me recoil in horror. Like most people though, I’m capable of keeping my indignation in check (most of the time!) for the sake of being civil towards people who I find personally disgusting.0 -
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Does anyone have anything positive to say about transgenderism here?I think this answer epitomises the the vast majority of the thread for me. Even when asked for a single positive thing about transgendered people the solitary response is a negative one.
Those are two very different concepts you’re conflating there though.
I see nothing positive about transgenderism, which I consider to be a political ideology, but I wouldn’t hold that against people who are transgender. It’s just not a characteristic I ever consider has any influence when evaluating a person’s character.
As for the dunnes response, ‘twas a mic drop moment, credit where it’s due 0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »Those are two very different concepts you’re conflating there though.
I see nothing positive about transgenderism, which I consider to be a political ideology, but I wouldn’t hold that against people who are transgender. It’s just not a characteristic I ever consider has any influence when evaluating a person’s character.
As for the dunnes response, ‘twas a mic drop moment, credit where it’s due
And to be fair I’ll be the first to stick my hand up and say I am in no way some kind of expert in all this and I would be quite likely to put my foot in it unintentionally. It’s a difficult subject, but the point is that you have to be discussing things with people in good faith, I don’t think much of that is happening in all honesty.0 -
I think this answer epitomises the the vast majority of the thread for me. Even when asked for a single positive thing about transgendered people the solitary response is a negative one.
It is kind of a stupid question though. I mean, it is either akin to demanding one ''say something positive about red-haired people'' or ''say something positive about tall people''. Like, uh, their hair looks great on film and they can reach high things. What do you want? Are they not just people like everyone else, some good, some bad, some funny, some arseholes? Is there something extra special one has to say about it or them or anyone or anything?
Transgenderism in itself is no cake walk I imagine for most people who experience it.
First of all there is the existential pain of being alienated from your natal body through experiences of dysphoria, or conditioning from various potential factors, and the general bloody discombobulation of it all, which much be horrid.
But even more so is the possible if not likely lifelong dependency on chemicals which can exert a consequential health toll. And perhaps the results of surgery which may disappoint, may not alleviate discomfort and may give rise to their own problems. It is a trial, I am sure.
But overall civil life in the developed world accommodates people of various shades and inclinations quite well, and has done so for quite some time, so most people muddle along as best they can, trans or not trans. I know some trans people online who seem as happy as Larry and are extremely amusing, smart and witty people thoroughly contented in their lives.
Then there do seem to be those who are extremely angry and upset and agitated and cause trouble, but there are many other people with unreasonable expectations when it comes to the ideological demands of identity politics. So there's that.
And there are co-morbidities which are quite common statistically like anxiety and depression etc and, well, I guess that's life. Research has found a notable degree of childhood trauma co-morbid with transgenderism, so that will always give rise to issues.
None of all this negates the fact that there are injustices and incoherencies that must be resolved with respect to what is generally called gender theory ideology and its wholesale imposition upon everyone. The ideology itself is often not supported by transgender people. Personally, despite the constant assumptions (le mot du jour! surely
) I am against gender theory ideology, not trans people. 0 -
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It is kind of a stupid question though. I mean, it is either akin to demanding one ''say something positive about red-haired people'' or ''say something positive about tall people''. Like, uh, their hair looks great on film and they can reach high things. What do you want? Are they not just people like everyone else, some good, some bad, some funny, some arseholes? Is there something extra special one has to say about it or them or anyone or anything?
Transgenderism in itself is no cake walk I imagine for most people who experience it.
First of all there is the existential pain of being alienated from your natal body through experiences of dysphoria, or conditioning from various potential factors, and the general bloody discombobulation of it all, which much be horrid.
But even more so is the possible if not likely lifelong dependency on chemicals which can exert a consequential health toll. And perhaps the results of surgery which may disappoint, may not alleviate discomfort and may give rise to their own problems. It is a trial, I am sure.
But overall civil life in the developed world accommodates people of various shades and inclinations quite well, and has done so for quite some time, so most people muddle along as best they can, trans or not trans. I know some trans people online who seem as happy as Larry and are extremely amusing, smart and witty people thoroughly contented in their lives.
Then there do seem to be those who are extremely angry and upset and agitated and cause trouble, but there are many other people with unreasonable expectations when it comes to the ideological demands of identity politics. So there's that.
And there are co-morbidities which are quite common statistically like anxiety and depression etc and, well, I guess that's life. Research has found a notable degree of childhood trauma co-morbid with transgenderism, so that will always give rise to issues.
None of all this negates the fact that there are injustices and incoherencies that must be resolved with respect to what is generally called gender theory ideology and its wholesale imposition upon everyone. The ideology itself is often not supported by transgender people. Personally, despite the constant assumptions (le mot du jour! surely ) I am against gender theory ideology, not trans people.
I don’t think it’s stupid, particularly given some of the nonsense spouted in the thread, for instance the made up conversation you posted that was apparently an example of what a child would have to say in court to a transgendered rapist (!)0 -
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I don’t think it’s stupid, particularly given some of the nonsense spouted in the thread, for instance the made up conversation you posted that was apparently an example of what a child would have to say in court to a transgendered rapist (!)
A child would never have to speak to their rapist in court.
Since we last chatted it has been posted that Sweden has stopped giving children experimental medication under the age of 16, and that a very strong trans woman is going to the Olympics to compete against women.
Anything positive or otherwise to say about these developments?
Here are Feagaiga Stowers and Iuniarra Sipaia at the Pacific Games in 2019. Feargaiga lost the gold by a margin of 7 kilos of weight lifted. That is quite a lot. Stowers had come through tremendous childhood adversity to represent Samoa in those games. Is it fair Hubbard lifts in the same division? Have you something positive or otherwise to say about this?
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As I said above, I’m no expert and I’m quite able to put my foot in it and get my terminology wrong. That doesn’t negate the point that you’ve come in here only to post a negative, much like others. I suppose it was possible to even not post anything at all, which would have been better.
That’s not very fair, nor is it in good faith, which means giving a person the benefit of the doubt. I read the dunnes post as answering the question from his perspective - it’s a good thing that transgenderism is rare, because I view it as a political ideology, which it is, in the broader context of identity politics. In that sense, I can understand why someone would suggest that the only positive thing that could be said about transgenderism is that it’s rare. I wasn’t expecting it, made me laugh
You read it differently, in a spirit which I can say with 100% certainty was not the intention. It’s just another reason to be grateful that transgenderism is rare. The fault isn’t in using the wrong terminology or not being an expert (tumblr “experts” will give you some idea of how divisive an ideology it is), the fault is in not giving others the benefit of the doubt.0 -
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[Deleted User] wrote: »Here are Feagaiga Stowers and Iuniarra Sipaia at the Pacific Games in 2019. Feargaiga lost the gold by a margin of 7 kilos of weight lifted. That is quite a lot. Stowers had come through tremendous childhood adversity to represent Samoa in those games. Is it fair Hubbard lifts in the same division? Have you something positive or otherwise to say about this?
Both ladies look absolutely gutted. I don't think that it's fair at all
Click on the photo and zoom in. They look disgusted0 -
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![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
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