Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

km991148 · 07-05-2021 11:58am

I think the keyword there is "might"?

Would be interesting to see the training materials (that picture is really not much on its own - if thats it then its a bit mad to represent via a barbie and a GI Joe - especially in UK/Ireland).

I'm not being facetious btw - generally when I am posting its really to try and get the full picture - the signal to noise ratio is too high when we keep getting snippets from twitter and the like.

volchitsa · 07-05-2021 12:05pm

km991148 wrote: »

I think the keyword there is "might"?

Would be interesting to see the training materials (that picture is really not much on its own - if thats it then its a bit mad to represent via a barbie and a GI Joe - especially in UK/Ireland).

I'm not being facetious btw - generally when I am posting its really to try and get the full picture - the signal to noise ratio is too high when we keep getting snippets from twitter and the like.

How is "might" the key word? It's clearly saying that there is a gender identity spectrum and that people who are more like Barbie are more girly, and those like GI Joe are boys.

The "might" is only about the extent of an individual's variation, not about whether or not looking like Barbie means you're closer to being a girl. That's a hateful stereotype which is presented as a fact.

Probes · 07-05-2021 12:07pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is a slide that was used in a teacher training course by Mermaids.

To me this slide seems to say the exact opposite of what you are suggesting, it says that a girl does not have to be feminine but could still be a girl.

km991148 · 07-05-2021 12:09pm

volchitsa wrote: »

How is "might" the key word? It's clearly saying that there is a gender identity spectrum and that people who are more like Barbie are more girly, and those like GI Joe are boys.

The "might" is only about the extent of an individual's variation, not about whether or not looking like Barbie means you're closer to being a girl. That's a hateful stereotype which is presented as a fact.

yeah - I don't know - I don't agree with stereotyping either. I'm trying to find the source of this image beyond twitter or when it was published/used (or even if it was! - I am sure it probably was, there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest it was, but little context on how it was presented). So much context missing I cant work out what I am more annoyed about :pac:

volchitsa · 07-05-2021 12:10pm

Probes wrote: »

To me this slide seems to say the exact opposite of what you are suggesting, it says that a girl does not have to be feminine but could still be a girl.

No. You're right that it could (possibly) be used for that, although there are no pictures of girls under the "boy" pictures so it's not a great way of doing that.

Anyway it's definitely not that here because it was used by a trans group to demonstrate their argument that boys who were attracted to barbie-type things were in fact girls born in the wrong bodies, and vice versa for girls who liked running around assault courses.

Probes · 07-05-2021 12:12pm

volchitsa wrote: »

No. You're right that it could do, but not here because it was used by a trans group to demonstrate their argument that boys who were attracted to barbie-type things were in fact girls born in the wrong bodies, and vice versa for girls who liked running around assault courses.

Going by the amount of wrong assumptions that have been made to date in this thread I think I would have to see the presentation or the context to be able to take your assumption at face value.

volchitsa · 07-05-2021 12:16pm

Probes wrote: »

Going by the amount of wrong assumptions that have been made to date in this thread I think I would have to see the presentation or the context to be able to take your assumption at face value.

Look at it again, as I just have: where in the image does it suggest that a girl who likes GI Joe things is anything other than a boy? For your interpretation to work, you'd have to have girl figures above GI Joe, and boy figures above the Barbie.

No, it's actually saying that if you're a girl who likes GI Joe, that proves that you're really in some way a boy, and a boy who likes Barbie is in reality a girl.

There's literally nothing in it that enables girls to think they can like boys' toys and yet still be girls.

volchitsa · 07-05-2021 12:22pm

This seems to be an article written in The Times based ona recording of one such training session:

https://twitter.com/k8_lister/status/1076972986316611584?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1076972986316611584%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.attitude.co.uk%2Farticle%2Factivists-hit-back-at-the-sunday-times-for-transphobic-fear-mongering%2F19963%2F

Also this, in the Spectator, byt a teacher who took part in one of the courses:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/don-t-tell-the-parents

Probes · 07-05-2021 12:26pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Look at it again, as I just have: where in the image does it suggest that a girl who likes GI Joe things is anything other than a boy? For your interpretation to work, you'd have to have girl figures above GI Joe, and boy figures above the Barbie.

No, it's actually saying that if you're a girl who likes GI Joe, that proves that you're really in some way a boy, and a boy who likes Barbie is in reality a girl.

There's literally nothing in it that enables girls to think they can like boys' toys and yet still be girls.

I don't think it's about playing with toys, they are representations of masculinity and femininity. I don't see that as only boys play with GI Joe, I see GI Joe as a representation of a masculine character. Again, the wider context needs to be understood before any condemnation occurs. I don't know much about Mermaids or their ideals, but the fact that we can interpret the slide so differently indicates that the slide by its self is not sufficient in portraying what it is meant to represent. We need the wider context.

km991148 · 07-05-2021 12:28pm

Anyway, for me it still seems that generally it's not the case that girls should play with Barbie's or boys train sets (maybe of we went back to the 30/40s and asked my parents generation?). No families or people I know think that way (of any gender or gender identity or whatever).

So based on my own worldview, I don't see anything wrong with my statement that generally this 'pink = a girl' is prevalent. That was my only point, before the out of concept excerpt was posted.

km991148 · 07-05-2021 12:29pm

volchitsa wrote: »

This seems to be an article written in The Times based ona recording of one such training session:

https://twitter.com/k8_lister/status/1076972986316611584?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1076972986316611584%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.attitude.co.uk%2Farticle%2Factivists-hit-back-at-the-sunday-times-for-transphobic-fear-mongering%2F19963%2F

Also this, in the Spectator, byt a teacher who took part in one of the courses:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/don-t-tell-the-parents

Yeah I found that spectator article too. It didn't really confirm it, but I only skimmed it.

Probes · 07-05-2021 12:32pm

volchitsa wrote: »

This seems to be an article written in The Times based ona recording of one such training session:

https://twitter.com/k8_lister/status/1076972986316611584?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1076972986316611584%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.attitude.co.uk%2Farticle%2Factivists-hit-back-at-the-sunday-times-for-transphobic-fear-mongering%2F19963%2F

Also this, in the Spectator, byt a teacher who took part in one of the courses:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/don-t-tell-the-parents

The Twitter thread seems to confirm what I was saying regarding Barrie and GI Joe, they are representing masculine and feminine characters, they aren't literal toys only to be played with by either boys or girls.

km991148 · 07-05-2021 12:36pm

Probes wrote: »

The Twitter thread seems to confirm what I was saying regarding Barrie and GI Joe, they are representing masculine and feminine characters, they aren't literal toys only to be played with by either boys or girls.

Shame the original video isn't available. Its an interesting example.

Probes · 07-05-2021 12:45pm

Honestly, I do find this thread a little depressing, it seems to be full of assumptions and edge cases with only negative connotations, and then these negative connotations are associated with transgender people. Does anyone have anything positive to say about transgenderism here?

volchitsa · 07-05-2021 12:46pm

Probes wrote: »

The Twitter thread seems to confirm what I was saying regarding Barrie and GI Joe, they are representing masculine and feminine characters, they aren't literal toys only to be played with by either boys or girls.

Of course they aren't just those two literal toys, that's not the point.

Where in that drawing, is there a place for girls who like playing with GI Joe to still be girls? It clearly indicates that if you like GI Joe (or physical activities and that sort of thing, not just literally GI Joe, obviously), that means you're on the "boy" end of the spectrum.

If it was saying that you could be a girl and still like playing soldiers or whatever, there would be a girl associated with the GI Joe end of the spectrum. There isn't.
And that's because Mermaids is run by a woman who says she thought her son was gay (at 2!) because he loved playing with girly things, and only later "discovered" that he was in fact a girl. It's what Mermaids was all about.
https://twitter.com/green_susie100/status/1217834484202135552?lang=en

Probes · 07-05-2021 12:50pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Of course they aren't just those two literal toys, that's not the point.

Where in that drawing, is there a place for girls who like playing with GI Joe to still be girls? It clearly indicates that if you like GI Joe (or physical activities and that sort of thing, not just literally GI Joe, obviously), that means you're on the "boy" end of the spectrum.

If it was saying that you could be a girl and still like playing soldiers or whatever, there would be a girl associated with the GI Joe end of the spectrum. There isn't.
And that's because Mermaids is run by a woman who says she thought her son was gay (at 2!) because he loved playing with girly things, and only later "discovered" that he was in fact a girl. It's what Mermaids was all about.
https://twitter.com/green_susie100/status/1217834484202135552?lang=en

Like, I think you need to watch the presentation if you can somehow, you’re misinterpreting it and it’s clear in the Twitter thread you linked to. GI Joe and Barbie and representative of ultra masculine and feminine characters (or people). I assume they are used because they are relatable to young children. The whole point of the slide is that you can be a girl and still be as masculine as you want.

volchitsa · 07-05-2021 12:51pm

Probes wrote: »

Like, I think you need to watch the presentation if you can somehow, you’re misinterpreting it and it’s clear in the Twitter thread you linked to. GI Joe and Barbie and representative of ultra masculine and feminine characters (or people). I assume they are used because they are relatable to young children. The whole point of the slide is that you can be a girl and still be as masculine as you want.

So where do transgender people come into it then? You think Mermaids is saying they don't exist? You're literally interpreting the exact opposite of what Mermaids say.

Probes · 07-05-2021 12:53pm

volchitsa wrote: »

So where do transgender people come into it then? You think Mermaids is saying they don't exist? You're literally interpreting the exact opposite of what Mermaids say.

I think you need to sit down and read carefully through the Twitter thread you linked to. Here is a prominent point taken from it:

https://twitter.com/k8_lister/status/1076973015144022016?s=20

km991148 · 07-05-2021 12:54pm

Lol now there is an argument based on assumptions based upon assumptions.. :pac:

volchitsa · 07-05-2021 1:05pm

Probes wrote: »

I think you need to sit down and read carefully through the Twitter thread you linked to. Here is a prominent point taken from it:

https://twitter.com/k8_lister/status/1076973015144022016?s=20

This isn't true though, they did say that. Nowadays they're going back over the past trying t make it more moderate - but listen to Susie Green's Ted talk where she says exactly that. She even says her husband had less of a problem with a "straight" trans daughter than with a homosexual son.

I know they don't say that all children who play with the "wrong" toys are necessarily trans, but they do say (and did so far more strongly until a couple of years ago when it became untenable) that it's a "clue" as to whether a child may be trans.

Probes · 07-05-2021 1:09pm

volchitsa wrote: »

This isn't true though, they did say that. Nowadays they're going back over the past trying t make it more moderate - but listen to Susie Green's Ted talk where she says exactly that. She even says her husband had less of a problem with a "straight" trans daughter than with a homosexual son.

I know they don't say that all children who play with the "wrong" toys are necessarily trans, but they do say (and did so far more strongly until a couple of years ago when it became untenable) that it's a "clue" as to whether a child may be trans.

Sorry but you’re going to have to link to whatever it is you’re taking about. It’s very clear in this thread that there are assumptions and edge cases galore and it’s difficult to take anything at face value, particularly when it’s posted by someone who just self-owned their own argument.

volchitsa · 07-05-2021 1:31pm

Probes wrote: »

Sorry but you’re going to have to link to whatever it is you’re taking about. It’s very clear in this thread that there are assumptions and edge cases galore and it’s difficult to take anything at face value, particularly when it’s posted by someone who just self-owned their own argument.

https://www.ted.com/talks/susie_green_transgender_a_mother_s_story?language=en

(One comment in a reply does not disprove the argument BTW. Any more than your claim that the image could be about anti stereotyping proves that it is.)

Probes · 07-05-2021 1:37pm

volchitsa wrote: »

https://www.ted.com/talks/susie_green_transgender_a_mother_s_story?language=en

(One comment in a reply does not disprove the argument BTW. Any more than your claim that the image could be about anti stereotyping proves that it is.)

Thanks I actually just watched that Ted Talk myself, which was incredibly enlightening. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for a parent in her position, or for the child either.

However, I must say that I’m completely confused by what your point is to be honest. I can’t see anything in the Ted Talk that is disapproving of Mermaids, and it doesn’t suggest anywhere that the husband is homophobic and prefers a transgendered child.

Also, it wasn’t just one comment in the Twitter thread, the whole thread is about how the presentation is being misreported. I’m not sure why you posted it at all to be honest. I think I may have completely misunderstood your opinion and it might help to clarify it.

volchitsa · 07-05-2021 1:41pm

Probes wrote: »

Thanks I actually just watched that Ted Talk myself, which was incredibly enlightening. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for a parent in her position, or for the child either.

However, I must say that I’m completely confused by what your point is to be honest. I can’t see anything in the Ted Talk that is disapproving of Mermaids, and it doesn’t suggest anywhere that the husband is homophobic and prefers a transgendered child.

Also, it wasn’t just one comment in the Twitter thread, the whole thread is about how the presentation is being misreported. I’m not sure why you posted it at all to be honest. I think I may have completely misunderstood your opinion and it might help to clarify it.

Maybe that's not the full length one, I'm a bit busy at the moment and didn't have time to check. If you're interested, look it up, there are even full transcripts around.

Probes · 07-05-2021 1:46pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

volchitsa wrote: »

Maybe that's not the full length one, I'm a bit busy at the moment and didn't have time to check. If you're interested, look it up, there are even full transcripts around.

You’re saying they edited it to remove parts that were critical of Mermaids and her husband? I mean, I doubt it. I guess it could happen, but given the amount of speculation and assumption in this thread to date I’d have to say that it would be very unlikely.

I’m genuinely confused, you seem to be posting a lot of things that provide evidence contrary to your opinion.

One eyed Jack · 07-05-2021 2:49pm

volchitsa wrote: »

Saying “Goodnight Sir” is transphobic harassment apparently. I think for most women that (or similar) wouldn’t even figure on the list of incidents of harassment.

volchitsa wrote: »

How is "might" the key word? It's clearly saying that there is a gender identity spectrum and that people who are more like Barbie are more girly, and those like GI Joe are boys.

The "might" is only about the extent of an individual's variation, not about whether or not looking like Barbie means you're closer to being a girl. That's a hateful stereotype which is presented as a fact.

Do you reckon what you describe as a hateful stereotype that most women would also figure that associating pink with girls was a hateful stereotype?

Plenty of women took issue with the idea of being referred to as ‘cis’, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that anyone would take issue with being referred to in a way which they considered disrespectful. Some people go OTT in their expressions of indignation, most people don’t, nor would most people describe associating pink with girls as a hateful stereotype.

One eyed Jack · 07-05-2021 3:01pm

mohawk wrote: »

It always comes down to gender stereotypes. None of us 100% meet these stereotypes.

The vast majority of people do, that’s where the concept of stereotypes comes from.

mohawk wrote: »

How did we go from telling our girls they could be whatever they wanted to telling them they aren’t girls if they don’t perform femininity well enough.

We didn’t. Most people still tell girls (and boys) they can be anything they want? It just wouldn’t occur to most people that to their child that means they are the opposite sex. Everyone has their limits on just what is acceptable to them, and what isn’t. Generally when they say a child can be anything they want, they mean it in a positive and encouraging way, not that the child actually literally can be anything they want. That would just be silly.

07-05-2021 3:06pm

Transcript of a Mermaids training course.

Part 1: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aeFV0T6j4PXvm1xZBS_50oSJYV-_gO8YMoFjKjNA_9Y/mobilebasic

Part 2: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NDOMlo2aEpBl2ySfKdEWCb1H94tZciKiqUffjH1ku0Y/mobilebasic

The trainer seems very personable and nice, and she makes lots of jokes and guides people through what she's saying with relatable stories and examples, and talk of "jelly babies" (the figures in the picture I put above).

Relevant quote:

So, very basically, you are cisgender if your brain jelly baby and your biology jelly baby are in alignment, so if it says male on your birth certificate and you feel as though you are a man you are cisgendered. If it says female on your birth certificate and you feel as though you are a woman you are cisgender. Trans or transgender is an umbrella term and it just means that the brain jelly baby and the biology jelly baby are not in alignment to varying degrees.

As you can see, she directly conflates "feeling feminine" (which is how she has heretofore referred to the Barbie-to-GI-Joe "jelly babies", as being a spectrum of gender from very feminine to very masculine) with "feeling like a woman". Seems a strange thing to assert after spending a very long time setting up gender as a spectrum that can apply to anyone of any sex.

A very masculine woman is... still a woman.

She explains "non-binary" thusly:

There's lots of different ways of explaining non-binary but if you're well outside of the LGBT bubble the easiest way to describe it really is that somebody's brain jelly baby is just right in the middle so they obviously don't feel a draw or an identification with either of the binaries. So it can be either no binary at all or a combination, an equal combination of both.

But a man who is sort of neutral in terms of gender is... still a man.

Gender-fluid:

So if someone is gender-fluid the easiest way to describe it really is that their brain jelly baby is [inaudible]. So, most people, your brain jelly baby is fixed by the time you're 4. Some people will remain fluid and it's quite common in children, it's quite common in teens, and some of those will settle in their birth gender and some of them won't.

No clue what a "birth gender" is but it sounds like a horrible imposition. Gender isn't involved in birth. Sex is observed and noted.

When someone in the audience challenges a statistic she brings up about suicide in trans teens, the trainer says:

I would say though please don’t assume that because someone is intelligent and in academia they don’t also have the ability to also be transphobic, because I see that a lot.

Which is a pretty telling response, and makes the rest of her talk make a lot more sense.

One eyed Jack · 07-05-2021 3:34pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No clue what a "birth gender" is but it sounds like a horrible imposition. Gender isn't involved in birth. Sex is observed and noted.

It relates to a persons sense of their identity as it relates to gender, an intangible concept, a psychological phenomenon associated with a persons sexual identity. It’s not something that occurs to people generally speaking as the vast majority of people are not transgender, meaning nothing more than their gender identity and their sex correspond to each other.

In individuals where this isn’t the case, they experience gender dysphoria, and for some people it’s stressful to experience cognitive dissonance between their mind telling them one thing, and their physical senses telling them something else. For some people who experience gender dysphoria it’s of no consequence and doesn’t impede them living their lives in any way, shape or form.

My own personal opinion on it is that I really couldn’t care less for the gender stuff, it’s an intangible identity, have at it as many labels as anyone wants. There are still only two genders recognised by the State, and they relate to a persons sex by way of ensuring people have the right to have their preferred gender identity recognised in Irish law and to be protected from unlawful discrimination on the basis of their gender identity as well as all the other intangible protected characteristics of a person’s identity recognised in Irish law such as ethnicity, religion, etc.

Probes · 07-05-2021 3:50pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Transcript of a Mermaids training course.

Part 1: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aeFV0T6j4PXvm1xZBS_50oSJYV-_gO8YMoFjKjNA_9Y/mobilebasic

Part 2: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NDOMlo2aEpBl2ySfKdEWCb1H94tZciKiqUffjH1ku0Y/mobilebasic

The trainer seems very personable and nice, and she makes lots of jokes and guides people through what she's saying with relatable stories and examples, and talk of "jelly babies" (the figures in the picture I put above).

Relevant quote:

As you can see, she directly conflates "feeling feminine" (which is how she has heretofore referred to the Barbie-to-GI-Joe "jelly babies", as being a spectrum of gender from very feminine to very masculine) with "feeling like a woman". Seems a strange thing to assert after spending a very long time setting up gender as a spectrum that can apply to anyone of any sex.

A very masculine woman is... still a woman.

She explains "non-binary" thusly:

But a man who is sort of neutral in terms of gender is... still a man.

Gender-fluid:

No clue what a "birth gender" is but it sounds like a horrible imposition. Gender isn't involved in birth. Sex is observed and noted.

When someone in the audience challenges a statistic she brings up about suicide in trans teens, the trainer says:

Which is a pretty telling response, and makes the rest of her talk make a lot more sense.

She is pretty clear in that presentation that being on that spectrum does not mean you are trans. She is very clear in saying that if you feel like you're a woman, but you're in a males body then you could be transgender. To be clear, an effeminate male does not necessarily consider themselves a woman.

Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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