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Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)
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They do not spend more time campaiging against trans issues, they campaign not to allow same SEX orientation to be redefined by gender identity.
Denying biological reality is not transphobic. Denying same sex orientation is homophobic.
Their entire organisations reason for existence and campaign focus is transphobic hate.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Biology is scientific fact.I'm not getting into another meaning debate around 'biological reality'. I'm just stating facts (or trying to at least). I'm only quoting what others have said, with at least a nod towards sources (rather than pictures of headlines from Twitter, or worse pictures of headlines from Twitter of "articles" based upon screen grabs of LinkedIn).
I pointed out that other senior public figures referred to them as transphobic to try and clear up the "hate group" remarks of earlier.
Why are the opinions of 'senior public figures' referring to LGB Alliance as transphobic of any importance? I'm sure these 'senior public figures' have a motive, usually financial or to appear to be informed/kind to attract followers or voters.
As I said already, campaigning not to allow same SEX orientation to be redefined by gender identity is neither transphobic or hateful.
It is actually incredible to me that as a lesbian I have to constantly state that same sex attraction is exclusive to that same sex. No biological male or female has ever or will ever change their biology, therefore I can never accept a biological male as a sexual partner, no matter what piece of paper/GRC they have, or if they take some hormones or indeed if they are one of the extremely rare men who bother with surgery.
Organisations like LGB Alliance are needed and wanted by those who are sick of homophobia.0 -
You can keep repeating these statements (it's almost Orwellian at this stage!), but I'm out on this subject. Plenty been said on this thread.Biology is scientific fact.Why are the opinions of 'senior public figures' referring to LGB Alliance as transphobic of any importance? I'm sure these 'senior public figures' have a motive, usually financial or to appear to be informed/kind to attract followers or voters.
Possibly. But it's the UK we are talking about, not exactly known for being currently trans friendly. It still takes a lot for senior public figures to use such terminology publicly and may carry a bit more weight that ingalway or km99 from boards.ie or Twitter or whatever.As I said already, campaigning not to allow same SEX orientation to be redefined by gender identity is neither transphobic or hateful.
It is actually incredible to me that as a lesbian I have to constantly state that same sex attraction is exclusive to that same sex. No biological male or female has ever or will ever change their biology, therefore I can never accept a biological male as a sexual partner, no matter what piece of paper/GRC they have, or if they take some hormones or indeed if they are one of the extremely rare men who bother with surgery.
Organisations like LGB Alliance are needed and wanted by those who are sick of homophobia.
This is not related to anything I have said.0 -
You should really give me the full rhetoric:Their entire organisations reason for existence and campaign focus is transphobic hate.
Trans women ARE women
Trans men ARE men
Non-binary are valid
Trans rights are human rights
If biological sex doesn't exist, why is it so important to say that trans women are women?
If biological sex doesn't exist why the need to transition, to have sex reassignment surgery?
If biological sex is irrelevant or doesn't exist then what even is gender dysphoria?
It is precisely your biology, millions of years of it, that makes a man a man or a woman a woman. To think it is clothes or beliefs or affectations that make you a man or a woman is sexist and frankly tiresome.0 -
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What rights do trans people not have in Britain?
I didn't actually talk about rights in the UK. I said 'friendly' (a subjective term) but it seems to be an increasing hostile environment environment over there.
But (since you asked!) with regards to rights (from the top of my head, I'm sure your favourite search engine of choice will have more):
-Access to healthcare isn't the same as non Trans.
-Getting married without government approval
-Ability to adopt0 -
What rights do trans people not have in Britain?
What countries are friendlier places for trans people?
Km didnt refer to rights. They referred to the UK being trans friendly. It simply isnt when you have so many "feminist" and "lgb" trans hate groups plus a very hostile media particularly the Daily Mail and Sunday Times which constantly try to demonise and villify trans people. The arguments are the same rhetoric used in the 70s and 80s against gay people too - a danger to children, danger in toilets, danger in prisons. Amazing that you see arguments that were once upon a time used homophobically and lesbophobically being rehashed. Im not aware of any other country where there are attempts to try and legislate trans people out of existence (there are many UK campaigners that want to repeal the UK gender recocgnition act) which is actually pretty disgusting.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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I didn't actually talk about rights in the UK. I said 'friendly' (a subjective term) but it seems to be an increasing hostile environment environment over there.
But (since you asked!) with regards to rights (from the top of my head, I'm sure your favourite search engine of choice will have more):
-Access to healthcare isn't the same as non Trans.
-Getting married without government approval
-Ability to adopt
What healthcare do they not get? Do not all people have to go on waiting lists for all treatments? Are trans people being pushed to the back of the queue for cancer treatment, diabetes? If you are specifically talking about gender treatment then yes there are long lists, like many more life threatening conditions and now that so many people are currently identifying as trans that lists naturally get longer, it's not discrimination, it's numbers - numbers are not transphobic.
With a GRC you can get married: The Gender Recognition Act 2004 enables transsexual people to marry in their acquired gender. A transgender person may legally marry / enter into a civil partnership in their acquired gender, provided this has been formally recognised by the Gender Recognition Panel and a gender recognition certificate issued.
Please tell me about the law in UK that prevents trans people adopting? As far as I am aware all people who wish to adopt are treated the same under Equality Law, as long as they meet the criteria they will be considered along with everyone else.
Still waiting to hear about all those other friendlier countries that treat trans people better than UK?0 -
And re 'friendly' and the earlier point of public figures being susceptible to changing their opinion to suit public opinion or for other gains:
Let's not forget the UK government themselves commissioned a study that led to recommendations that self ID would be a good thing (and in turn debunked many of the myths that we regularly "debate" on this thread) but done a u-turn that was pretty much based on how it would play to public opinion.0 -
And re 'friendly' and the earlier point of public figures being susceptible to changing their opinion to suit public opinion or for other gains:
Let's not forget the UK government themselves commissioned a study that led to recommendations that self ID would be a good thing (and in turn debunked many of the myths that we regularly "debate" on this thread) but done a u-turn that was pretty much based on how it would play to public opinion.
It went to public consultation. There was general support. Then TERFs whipped up a storm of hate and villifcation.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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What healthcare do they not get? Do not all people have to go on waiting lists for all treatments? Are trans people being pushed to the back of the queue for cancer treatment, diabetes? If you are specifically talking about gender treatment then yes there are long lists, like many more life threatening conditions and now that so many people are currently identifying as trans that lists naturally get longer, it's not discrimination, it's numbers - numbers are not transphobic.
With a GRC you can get married: The Gender Recognition Act 2004 enables transsexual people to marry in their acquired gender. A transgender person may legally marry / enter into a civil partnership in their acquired gender, provided this has been formally recognised by the Gender Recognition Panel and a gender recognition certificate issued.
Please tell me about the law in UK that prevents trans people adopting? As far as I am aware all people who wish to adopt are treated the same under Equality Law, as long as they meet the criteria they will be considered along with everyone else.
Yep, so if you knew the answer to your own question, then there is not much point in me replying- you can ask and answer the questions on your own!
I do disagree of course with most of your assertions (a GRC to marry is not the same as just getting married. Many non gender related clinics will not treat anyone waiting on gender clinic appointments. Many GPs will not refer to gender clinics. Waiting lists are massive, yes all treatments require some waiting lists, but 3-5 years to get an appointment is not really practical on any level. For some this *is* life threatening.. but of course you know all of this and obviously you disagree with this too so... ??)Still waiting to hear about all those other friendlier countries that treat trans people better than UK?
Cool! But I don't need to answer your questions. I didn't make a comment about the UK in comparison to any other country, I just made a subjective comment about the friendliness of the UK.
You asked the question, I'll let you knock out an answer - I don't really have a list in mind.0 -
Just signed up online for my Covid vaccination.
Male ✓
Female
No other gender options available, not that I'd need one.0 -
I do disagree of course with most of your assertions.
But which bits? Because this "I have arguments that disprove everything you're saying but I'm far above actually typing them out" schtick is getting old.
Nobody can force you to engage of course, but you're repeatedly making assertions and then disagreeing when contradicted without actually saying why or how or presenting the evidence by which the rest of us might get more information. It makes engaging with you pretty frustrating.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »But which bits? Because this "I have arguments that disprove everything you're saying but I'm far above actually typing them out" schtick is getting old.
Nobody can force you to engage of course, but you're repeatedly making assertions and then disagreeing when contradicted without actually saying why or how or presenting the evidence by which the rest of us might get more information. It makes engaging with you pretty frustrating.
I edited my post while you typed this.
What have I been contracted on? I've only really stuck to facts, not opinion. People want to debate facts, which in not really into.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »But which bits? Because this "I have arguments that disprove everything you're saying but I'm far above actually typing them out" schtick is getting old.
Nobody can force you to engage of course, but you're repeatedly making assertions and then disagreeing when contradicted without actually saying why or how or presenting the evidence by which the rest of us might get more information. It makes engaging with you pretty frustrating.
The poster just went into more detail in the post above yours explaining the how and why.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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What sources are you parrotting? The ones posted earlier?I'm not getting into another meaning debate around 'biological reality'. I'm just stating facts (or trying to at least). I'm only quoting what others have said, with at least a nod towards sources (rather than pictures of headlines from Twitter, or worse pictures of headlines from Twitter of "articles" based upon screen grabs of LinkedIn).
I pointed out that other senior public figures referred to them as transphobic to try and find the balance with the hate group categorisation.
They aren't very neutral articles, are they?
The first sentences in every one (bar, funnily enough the Scottish Sun one) would have given that away to a neutral observer.
Going by someone quoting articles in blogs and 'Pink News' (!), more than likely collected/bookmarked from within an echo chamber, isn't advisable.
Maybe go directly to source and yes, I agree not to rely on Twitter if no primary, neutral source included.The issue is never the issue; the issue is always the revolution.
The Entryism process: 1) Demand access; 2) Demand accommodation; 3) Demand a seat at the table; 4) Demand to run the table; 5) Demand to run the institution; 6) Run the institution to produce more activists and policy until they run it into the ground.
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You can keep repeating these statements (it's almost Orwellian at this stage!), but I'm out on this subject. Plenty been said on this thread.
Possibly. But it's the UK we are talking about, not exactly known for being currently trans friendly. It still takes a lot for senior public figures to use such terminology publicly and may carry a bit more weight that ingalway or km99 from boards.ie or Twitter or whatever.
This is not related to anything I have said.
You see now, who told you that??The issue is never the issue; the issue is always the revolution.
The Entryism process: 1) Demand access; 2) Demand accommodation; 3) Demand a seat at the table; 4) Demand to run the table; 5) Demand to run the institution; 6) Run the institution to produce more activists and policy until they run it into the ground.
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What sources are you parrotting? The ones posted earlier?
They aren't very neutral articles, are they?
The first sentences in every one (bar, funnily enough the Scottish Sun one) would have given that away to a neutral observer.
Going by someone quoting articles in blogs and 'Pink News' (!), more than likely collected/bookmarked from within an echo chamber, isn't advisable.
Maybe go directly to source and yes, I agree not to rely on Twitter if no primary, neutral source included.
I wouldn't normally count the Wikipedia as a source (that's all I looked to), but that is how low the bar is on this thread. That's the absolute minimum and it still manages to be better than 90percent if what is posted here (including pink news, Twitter, daily mail, Photoshopped headlines, out of context excerpts from books etc).0 -
You see now, who told you that??
I know what you are saying. I'm aware of my own bias and the danger of echo chambers.
The UK does tho seem to be becoming less Trans friendly, but maybe that's just the amount of daily mail I see on this thread..
I didn't make a quantifiable statement here, how could I!0 -
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I wouldn't normally count the Wikipedia as a source (that's all I looked to), but that is how low the bar is on this thread. That's the absolute minimum and it still manages to be better than 90percent if what is posted here (including pink news, Twitter, daily mail, Photoshopped headlines, out of context excerpts from books etc).
The first 7 words of the Wikipedia entry for "Trans man" are:
A trans man is a man who
The second instance of "man" there is linked to the Wikipedia entry for "Man", and the first 7 words of that one are:
A man is an adult male human.
The "male" is linked to the Wikipedia entry for "male", which begins:
Male (♂) is the sex of an organism that produces the gamete known as sperm, or the gamete that fuses with the female gamete.
Sooo that all ends up being completely illogical gobbledegook. A trans man does not produce sperm.
Wikipedia isn't really a better source than Twitter. It's just clinging onto some residual prestige from before it got awful.
I apologise for jumping the gun with my last post. I didn't see you'd edited before I replied.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »The first 7 words of the Wikipedia entry for "Trans man" are:
A trans man is a man who
The second instance of "man" there is linked to the Wikipedia entry for "Man", and the first 7 words of that one are:
A man is an adult male human.
The "male" is linked to the Wikipedia entry for "male", which begins:
Male (♂) is the sex of an organism that produces the gamete known as sperm, or the gamete that fuses with the female gamete.
Sooo that all ends up being completely illogical gobbledegook. A trans man does not produce sperm.
Wikipedia isn't really a better source than Twitter. It's just clinging onto some residual prestige from before it got awful.
I apologise for jumping the gun with my last post. I didn't see you'd edited before I replied.
I didn't say Wikipedia was a particularly credible source. I went there for the very basic facts around lgb alliance. At the time where you had it being described as a hate group and also being compared to the innocent ol' RSPCA. In the middle of two viewpoint I commented from the wiki which has some publicly available newspaper quotes as well.
It was quoted for some very rudimentary fact checking, of which it is suitable in that context. It's not like I pulled a study from it used it as the basis for my master's dissertation ffs.
Don't forget all the other posts that count in the 00s of pages of this thread..0 -
It was quoted for some very rudimentary fact checking, of which it is suitable in that context. It's not like I pulled a study from it used it as the basis for my master's dissertation ffs.
Don't forget all the other posts that count in the 00s of pages of this thread..
Fair enough.
People can also just go to the source and look at LGB Alliance's website, too: https://lgballiance.org.uk/about/
It shows what they're about in their own words and I think anything that a trans rights activist would consider to be hateful or bigoted is right there on the page. No need to rely on the opinions of "prominent people" when we can just make up our own minds.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Fair enough.
People can also just go to the source and look at LGB Alliance's website, too: https://lgballiance.org.uk/about/
It shows what they're about in their own words and I think anything that a trans rights activist would consider to be hateful or bigoted is right there on the page. No need to rely on the opinions of "prominent people" when we can just make up our own minds.
Maybe, but I'm not so sure. To an activist who is on the lookout for certain terms etc, yeah of course.
To clarify - I didn't call them a hate group either.0 -
Its entire raison d'etre is about trans hate - nothing else at all.
Here we see the cofounder throwing all LGBT youth under a bus https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5207235/lgb-alliance-lgbt-clubs-schools-teachers/
I don't see any need for LGBT clubs in schools either. There weren't any when I went to school and frankly I find the idea a bit odd. In any case to say he's throwing lgbt's 'under a bus' is just silly. I have no issue with the UK's so called 'lgbt lessons' which merely acknowledge gay people, and perhaps some people should be more concerned with the people in the UK who object to the lessons than with LGB Alliance.Here we see the LGB Alliance hate group make ridiculously stupid claims that trans existence will make lesbians extincthttps://www.gscene.com/news/lesbians-denounce-lgb-alliance/
This is in relation to the concern that gay youth, masculine girls for example, may be considered by their parents to be transgender rather than gay.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/25/lesbians-facing-extinction-transgenderism-becomes-pervasive/The LGB Alliance’s mission statement refers to clinicians concerned about a culture of “transing out the gay” at the Tavistock Clinic in London, which specialises in offering gender identity development services (GIDS).
I don't know much about this but I can see there's more to it than you are suggesting.Here we can see all of the main reasons for their existence are about nothing other than opposing trans existence https://medium.com/@mxfoxfox/yes-the-lgb-alliance-is-a-hate-group-4d0ea268f590
That is merely a blog, no more valid than any opinion voiced on this forum. "Fox [blogger] is a London based trans drag artist & queer muslim activist"
Think I'll pass on that one.Here we can see a lot of their lies and transphobia debunkedhttps://gcn.ie/debunking-misinformation-lgb-alliance-ireland
Those are not lies, those are opinions that you disagree with, debunked by a biased publication. Debunk away, but lies?Here and here we can clearly see that they ally themselves with many many people who are not only transphobic, homophobic and biphobic as well as linked to extreme religious conservatives
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance
That is a wiki that can be written and edited by anyone. He's another wiki that reads less hysterically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance
"There is nothing to suggest the LGB Alliance has sought or welcomed such supporters, but when asked by PinkNews to denounce neo-Nazis, the LGB Alliance refused"
More likely they didn't refuse but just hung up. So the article is clearly a blatant attempt to link them with neo-nazis. And people wonder why noone takes The Pink News seriously.
I don't really know that much aboukt LGB Alliance so I did a little googling...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4KrvvFVwi0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4KrvvFVwi0
....just to get a feel for Kate Harris, co founder of LGB Alliance.
Now I just had a cursory listen to those but one issue that stood out is that homosexuality has been redefined by Stonewall (of which Harris is a former member) to be about sexual attraction to gender rather than biological sex.
And yes it appears they have....
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/glossary-terms#hF.A.Q
HOMOSEXUALThis might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.
So, a genuine concern I think. I have some thoughts on why they did that I'll leave for later.
So all in all your continuous claims that LGB Alliance are a 'hate group' set up for the only purpose to be a hate group cuz they hate transgender people so much, really doesnt sound plausible. Unless of course you have evidence that proves such, otherwise I'm not sure you can continue to make these accusations repeatedly without hard proof. I'm sure the mods would agree.0 -
For most human beings it is not going to be possible to make/ encourage their erotic attraction comply with gender identities.
Erotic attraction is not cerebral, it cannot be disciplined by right think. No matter what, I will not want to have intimate relations with a female genitalia, no matter how masculine the trans man. It is not about genital fetish. There are skin differences, smell, deportment, pheromones, life experience, so many things.
Some people will of course be attracted to gender identity rather than the sexed body - of course.
But it cannot catch on as a general thing due to our deeply instinctive erotic drive. Ideology cannot change it.
What is to be done about the reality of that? Redefining erotic attraction based on identity rather than sex is nigh on impossible for the majority. Enshrining new definitions, such as Stonewalls mentioned above, while it might appear kinder, is not a reflection of reality.0 -
You should really give me the full rhetoric:
Trans women ARE women
Trans men ARE men
Non-binary are valid
Trans rights are human rights
If biological sex doesn't exist, why is it so important to say that trans women are women?
If biological sex doesn't exist why the need to transition, to have sex reassignment surgery?
If biological sex is irrelevant or doesn't exist then what even is gender dysphoria?
It is precisely your biology, millions of years of it, that makes a man a man or a woman a woman. To think it is clothes or beliefs or affectations that make you a man or a woman is sexist and frankly tiresome.
I saw this post and read through the remaining 3 pages to see if anyone would argue or even address it.
Nobody did.0 -
I saw this post and read through the remaining 3 pages to see if anyone would argue or even address it.
Nobody did.
A lot of this has already been discussed (several times) earlier in the thread. There were more posters and more discussion. Now it's just a bit of s shouting match - sure in the post you quoted the poster is setting up an argument with themselves!
In fact nearly everything is back full circle, I don't really see anything new to learn or understand on this thread. Time to let the new (and "new") generation of posters at it for a while.0 -
I saw this post and read through the remaining 3 pages to see if anyone would argue or even address it.
Nobody did.
They never do. There are only so many ways you can accuse people of hate, transphobia, being a nazi etc but when it comes down to reasonable questions that should be easily answered if the facts and logic support them then they block/ignore until the next chance for meaningless name calling arrives.
It helps the cause to be honest, people who are maybe on the fence or don't know much beyond "be kind" "they only want to use the toilet" "biological sex is a white male colonial construct" "the third sex is real, intersex people exist"!
We have replaced religious doctrine with a gender identity cult. Men in frocks replaced by women in dresses.0 -
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A lot of this has already been discussed (several times) earlier in the thread. There were more posters and more discussion. Now it's just a bit of s shouting match - sure in the post you quoted the poster is setting up an argument with themselves!
In fact nearly everything is back full circle, I don't really see anything new to learn or understand on this thread. Time to let the new (and "new") generation of posters at it for a while.
You won't answer because you can't.
Censorship and ageism. So progressive.0
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This discussion has been closed.
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