Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

km991148

ingalway wrote: »

You won't answer because you can't.
Censorship and ageism. So progressive.

Nah that's your sarcastic take on it. You have all the answers to your own questions already, what can I add? I'm not here for an argument. You seem to think I oppose every one of your views and paint everything as us Vs them. I'm just sick if it tbh.

km991148

ingalway wrote: »

They never do. There are only so many ways you can accuse people of hate, transphobia, being a nazi etc but when it comes down to reasonable questions that should be easily answered if the facts and logic support them then they block/ignore until the next chance for meaningless name calling arrives.
It helps the cause to be honest, people who are maybe on the fence or don't know much beyond "be kind" "they only want to use the toilet" "biological sex is a white male colonial construct" "the third sex is real, intersex people exist"!
We have replaced religious doctrine with a gender identity cult. Men in frocks replaced by women in dresses.

Case in point. You don't think this post is a tad contradictory?
Name calling is only allowed if it's in agreement with your own views?
This is the sort of thing I'm rather tired of. And we talk about honesty!

km991148

ingalway wrote: »

You won't answer because you can't.
Censorship and ageism. So progressive.

Ageism? Explain? 'Generation' as in the new round of people and re regs contributing to the thread? Not many people of my age get accused of ageism!

ingalway

ingalway wrote: »

You won't answer because you can't.
Censorship and ageism. So progressive.

It is a weird angle - one must stay quiet and let new ie younger opinion havers hold sway.
LOL, as the kids say

km991148

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is a weird angle - one must stay quiet and let new ie younger opinion havers hold sway.
LOL, as the kids say

It certainly is a weird angle!! Its almost like a deliberate mis interpretation of my post. The new generation comment was regarding the likes of yourself who is brand new to the thread. i.e. the new round of people that have joined the conversation. If you notice, most of the old round of people have long since moved on, presumably as they have just got fed up with the same back and forward nonsense.

Feck all to do with actual age of posters..

(And I only meant myself with regards to stepping away, the old stalwarts of the thread on all sides can of course hang around and spread their opinion, why on earth would I want to stop that!)

On age, most people I know on the gender theory critical side are in their 30s and 40s. There are plenty of older ones too, and more power to them - women often experience a sense of protectiveness towards younger women as they themselves grow older.
And I have heard it said recently quite a lot that there has been a new swelling of numbers in the gender theory critical camp from women in their early 2Os who are moving more towards what I suppose are called ''rad fem'' positions - they have seen through the bunkum of things like ''sex work is work'' and pornography is empowering, we all love the bones of it, and the attempt to up-end the sex-based root of various issues to have them replaced by gender identity instead as a focus.

It has been interesting even in recent years to watch people's professed opinions change or be withdrawn - I remember when very straight middle aged people were coming out to support drag queen story time for toddlers and telling anyone who had an issue with the poor child Desmond is Amazing being pimped all over the media that it was somehow a weirdness in objectors that they had any objection. That they were bigots etc. I doubt that would happen now as people have gradually seen the back story to say Desmond, or now that the moment of kids rolling round on the bellies of drag queens has passed.

More recently people have adopted positions of defending experimental treatment of children by saying things like doctor knows best or who am I to say etc, and stop now or children will die, but now the tables are turning on that also. More and more civilised countries are examining the issues more deeply and calling a halt and it turns out that the so-called bigots and objectors had a damn good point to make after all.

I think it will go on like this. Sense gaining ground. For example in the arena of sport and so on. And everyone of any sex or any gender identity can be accommodated in a decent way that is humane and reasonable and that does not result in injustices or incoherent anomalies.

isha

isha wrote: »

It is a weird angle - one must stay quiet and let new ie younger opinion havers hold sway.
LOL, as the kids say

To be fair -- and I am not on his side of the argument -- it was clear to me that km991148 means newer posters, not young posters. The thread is bound to be repetitive at this stage.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To be fair -- and I am not on his side of the argument -- it was clear to me that km991148 means newer posters, not young posters. The thread is bound to be repetitive at this stage.

Fair enough. You are probably right.

Still odd. Is it normal to ask in other threads that posters stand aside for the new posters to share their dinner pics, watches pics, weather forecasts, opinions on multiculturalism etc etc. In fact, change the weather forecaster for the love of God - I am finding this cold weather and its forecasts very repetitive!

Edited to add that in fairness news on this subject is arriving every day. New policies, new cases, new conflicts of interest, new compromises etc. It will very much be a hot topic for quite some time.

isha

isha wrote: »

O they have seen through the bunkum of things like ''sex work is work'' and pornography is empowering, we all love the bones of it, and the attempt to up-end the sex-based root of various issues to have them replaced by gender identity instead as a focus.
.

Where did that even come from? Seriously?

Recently Feminism in Ireland did want to decriminalise prostitution for sex workers, but also supported the criminalisation of clients. This isn't really supporting sex workers, as it ends their ability to work if properly applied. That seemed to be the default Irish feminist position but within a few years, support of sex workers becomes the norm.

How does a movement which abhors the "male gaze" support porn.

fvp4

fvp4 wrote: »

Where did that even come from? Seriously?

Recently Feminism in Ireland did want to decriminalise prostitution for sex workers, but also supported the criminalisation of clients. This isn't really supporting sex workers, as it ends their ability to work if properly applied. That seemed to be the default Irish feminist position but within a few years, support of sex workers becomes the norm.

How does a movement which abhors the "male gaze" support porn.

Isha said that young women are seeing that "sex work is work" and "porn is empowering" are bunkum - meaning they are turning against those ideas.

That was how I read it anyway.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where did that even come from? Seriously?

Recently Feminism in Ireland did want to decriminalise prostitution for sex workers, but also supported the criminalisation of clients. This isn't really supporting sex workers, as it ends their ability to work if properly applied. That seemed to be the default Irish feminist position but within a few years, support of sex workers becomes the norm.

How does a movement which abhors the "male gaze" support porn.

Don't know. Had a wee think about that very think while driving back from a job this morning and no answers came. I know the angry answers eg how men somehow did a sly job and convinced women about the empowerment stuff, but I don't believe that kind of misandrist stuff. It might simply boil down to money and the market directing social movements. Honestly. Don't know.

km991148

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair enough. You are probably right.

There is no probably about it. I made it quite clear multiple times and you choose to misinterpret this.

There was no request for anyone to stand aside, more that people other than myself can continue the same old arguments with new posters such as yourself. I'm all for inclusivity!

Regarding new news, it would be lovely to talk about such things, but considering there is not much of that happening and it's the same old soap boxing (from multiple sides) then it's why I am saying let the new generation continue (interacting with the other longstanding posters*)



*I can't believe this last part has to be spelled out because it seems to have been misunderstood, but there you go!

km991148

And talking about censorship - Remember the campaign on feedback thread a few folks had to shut the thread down :pac: accusing me of censorship is like sitcom sort of stuff really - I've always said discussion should continue!

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/trans-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-set-to-make-history-at-tokyo-olympics?__twitter_impression=true

Laurel Hubbard goes to Tokyo..

ingalway

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/trans-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-set-to-make-history-at-tokyo-olympics?__twitter_impression=true

Laurel Hubbard goes to Tokyo..

Just saw that myself. Perversely I hope Hubbard does well so it shows to a wider audience just how dreadful it is to have a biological male competing in a female category. Fortunately it's not a team sport so no concerns about Women getting seriously injured. Of course it means women who have trained and sacrificed for years will no doubt lose out on a medal and podium place.

ingalway

km991148 wrote: »

There is no probably about it. I made it quite clear multiple times and you choose to misinterpret this.

Comedy Gold.

Sadler Peak

isha wrote: »

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/trans-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-set-to-make-history-at-tokyo-olympics?__twitter_impression=true

Laurel Hubbard goes to Tokyo..

What a great day for women's sport, so brave. :cool:

Baggly

ingalway wrote: »

Just saw that myself. Perversely I hope Hubbard does well so it shows to a wider audience just how dreadful it is to have a biological male competing in a female category. Fortunately it's not a team sport so no concerns about Women getting seriously injured. Of course it means women who have trained and sacrificed for years will no doubt lose out on a medal and podium place.

Mod

You are done in this thread. Dont post here again.

ingalway

ingalway wrote: »

Just saw that myself. Perversely I hope Hubbard does well so it shows to a wider audience just how dreadful it is to have a biological male competing in a female category. Fortunately it's not a team sport so no concerns about Women getting seriously injured. Of course it means women who have trained and sacrificed for years will no doubt lose out on a medal and podium place.

Laurel Hubbard actually has a bit of an interesting life story. As an aside. Their dad is a wealthy entrepreneur who started a food company which was very centred on social justice issues, kind of ahead of the times of social justice issues. Dick Hubbard was also Mayor of Auckland for a few years.

I don't see why a separate category could not exist for trans women who have been through male puberty and records could be set and countered in that category over time and places. Same for trans men. They could lift weights as people who have had a female puberty and set records achievements goals to be challenged etc.

km991148

ingalway wrote: »

Comedy Gold.

I know!

EddieN75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Laurel Hubbard actually has a bit of an interesting life story. As an aside. Their dad is a wealthy entrepreneur who started a food company which was very centred on social justice issues, kind of ahead of the times of social justice issues. Dick Hubbard was also Mayor of Auckland for a few years.

I don't see why a separate category could not exist for trans women who have been through male puberty and records could be set and countered in that category over time and places. Same for trans men. They could lift weights as people who have had a female puberty and set records achievements goals to be challenged etc.

From the guardian:

"However, a number of scientific papers have recently shown people who have undergone male puberty retain significant advantages in power and strength even after taking medication to suppress their testosterone levels. Hubbard lived as a male for 35 years, and did not compete in international weightlifting. But since transitioning in 2012 she has won several elite titles"

Necro

Do we have to go over this every single time there's a mod action folks?

Take it up with the mod via PM, or start a thread in the Help Desk. Discuss it here and get sanctioned. The site policy regarding this hasn't changed in donkey's years.

volchitsa

Saying “Goodnight Sir” is transphobic harassment apparently. I think for most women that (or similar) wouldn’t even figure on the list of incidents of harassment.

https://twitter.com/clairenotdead/status/1389726019729379329?s=21

Also, look at how terrified the staff seem to be.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

All their talk about pigtails and frilly dresses and pretty shoes makes me wonder if there was a strong discrepancy between how they treated their son and daughter that made "being a boy" look more appealing. They certainly have massive, unhealthy, and pretty misogynistic hangups about gender and what is involved in "being a girl".

This.
It's perfectly possible to be a woman/girl without pink frills and dainty shoes.
Not following someone else's idea of what a girl is doesn't make someone a boy.

wadacrack

volchitsa wrote: »

Saying “Goodnight Sir” is transphobic harassment apparently. I think for most women that (or similar) wouldn’t even figure on the list of incidents of harassment.

https://twitter.com/clairenotdead/status/1389726019729379329?s=21

Also, look at how terrified the staff seem to be.

"Transgender" people are much more likely to suffer from mental health issues . This is evidence of that. Sad times when society wants to fight against human nature.

volchitsa

volchitsa wrote: »

Saying “Goodnight Sir” is transphobic harassment apparently. I think for most women that (or similar) wouldn’t even figure on the list of incidents of harassment. .

It would barely even register as having happened if someone called me "sir".

But this is pure identity politics, narcissism and powerseeking. You can tell by how that person talks. They've separated their own good/oppressed identity "transgender" from another bad/oppressor identity "****ing cis people", and now they seek to centre themselves in every interaction by insisting that other people participate in propping up their own alleged view of themselves.

This is not how identity works and never has been. You control only what you present to the world, and your "identity" is the resulting impression people have of you, which is affected by many different factors. Not least of which are your attitude and affability. That person can insist they're a woman until the cows come home, they might even manage to make other people legally obliged to utter the cantations, but they cannot control what other people think of them. And that appears to be what truly drives them to this sort of madness.

It's sad. And it's a scandal that this person will be "affirmed" by a medical wing held hostage, and indulged by people terrified of being "outed" as bigots by social media clout chasers and potentially fired, instead of getting the help they so obviously need.

As I said before, needing other people's approval so much that a single syllable can send you into a tailspin is not healthy. And the people pretending it is some sort of dreadful, heinous crime in order to show "solidarity" are in many cases actively harming those they profess to care about.

mohawk

GreeBo wrote: »

This.
It's perfectly possible to be a woman/girl without pink frills and dainty shoes.
Not following someone else's idea of what a girl is doesn't make someone a boy.

It always comes down to gender stereotypes. None of us 100% meet these stereotypes. The first Christmas I can remember I got a train set. One year I got a Barbie and I was disgusted. My sister and me hated dresses with a passion and so only wore them on special occasions when given no other choice. We wanted to wear runners and trousers so we could run around with our friends. We were not unusual just tomboys like lots of other girls. Some girls just can’t be bothered with wearing pretty shoes and clothes.
How did we go from telling our girls they could be whatever they wanted to telling them they aren’t girls if they don’t perform femininity well enough.

km991148

mohawk wrote: »

How did we go from telling our girls they could be whatever they wanted to telling them they aren’t girls if they don’t perform femininity well enough.

I don't think this is generally the case tho?

mohawk

mohawk wrote: »

It always comes down to gender stereotypes. None of us 100% meet these stereotypes. The first Christmas I can remember I got a train set. One year I got a Barbie and I was disgusted. My sister and me hated dresses with a passion and so only wore them on special occasions when given no other choice. We wanted to wear runners and trousers so we could run around with our friends. We were not unusual just tomboys like lots of other girls. Some girls just can’t be bothered with wearing pretty shoes and clothes.
How did we go from telling our girls they could be whatever they wanted to telling them they aren’t girls if they don’t perform femininity well enough.

This is a true story - brace now because it is emotional.
For my 13th birthday - becoming a teen and all that - I asked (begged!) for my first pair of jeans and a pair of doc martens. On my birthday I got a golden sparkling tight viscose polo neck and a pair of bright orange flares. Which I had to wear to my party. I looked like a long lost BeeGee sister.
It is a wonder I am not the Queen of Disgruntled Identity Warriors.

km991148

km991148 wrote: »

I don't think this is generally the case tho?

This is a slide that was used in a teacher training course by Mermaids.