First Aid?

civdef · 29-04-2021 11:29pm #1

Follow up thread to the Kentucky Ballistics 50bmg kaboom video in the OT thread - do you carry any first aid gear with your shooting stuff?

tudderone · 30-04-2021 12:51am

Normally in the car, a first aid kit. You can't carry too much with you or you'd be like Sherpa Tenzing.

Cass · 30-04-2021 12:54am

Carry a lot of first aid gear. Wouldn't say it was an ambulance without the wheels (could do with another option between one and two there), but i carry a fairly good selection of gear from plasters to bandages, surgical tape, cpr mask, heat/cold pack, antiseptic, gloves, scissors, needles, tweezers, eye wash/drops, some meds and of course sudocrem.

I've two packs. One is small and under the rear seat with only basics (plasters, antiseptic wash, bandage or two and a few other basics/essential) and the second is a larger one in the boot with the better supply of stuff (listed above. Which reminds me with the place opening up time to stick it back into the boot.

I got basic first aid training in one of my jobs with a refresher a couple of years later so started carrying them after that. Luckily i've only ever had to use it once, and not on myself.

Grizzly 45 · 30-04-2021 2:38am

Carry a basic 1st aid kit in the car, and a basic trauma kit when hunting or chainsawing.[IE a lot of quick clot , Israeli bandages, tourniquet.] Not much point in carrying more stuff,if you arent qualified to use it, or don't know-how.

The rest of it is in the head stuff anyone should know...CPR, Heimlich maneuver, Mouth to mouth, stroke recognition, stopping bleeding.

cookimonster · 30-04-2021 7:32am

I put a compact first aid kit together last year, mainly for incised / laceration wounds, but I also carry a space blanket and upgraded my old survival bivie bag. I tend only to carry this if hill shooting or bush camping and I keep a basic first aid kit in the car.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

.....IE a lot of quick clot , Israeli bandages, tourniquet.] .......

What quick clot do you have and were did you source it. I did a bit of internet searching last year but never purchased it in the end. I must get back onto it.

As a side bar, what other safety kit do you bring? Mine includes a combination of the following and is dependent on the location and type of hunting I'm at:

Mobile phone - always (charger bank if staying out for very long periods) I also use Google Maps location sharing with my other half.

Torch- head or hand

Walkie Talkies - use them when hunting in groups, very handy in so many ways. But can be used to communicate with emergency services.

Garmin eTrex 10 Outdoor GPS- used in the hills, preprogramed with tracks in and out.

As I said alot of it is dependent on what I do but necessity and experience has thought us to add kit. Ground that we would know very well suddenly becomes alien when heavy fog comes in.

Vegeta · 30-04-2021 9:29am

This a great topic, I am sooo ignorant of first aid. My father is very well trained so I've been lazy about it but getting training and equipment together would be really good goal for when in person training is allowed again.

Anyone recommend a good multi-purpose first aid kit, or are you better off assembling the stuff yourself?

Scalachi · 30-04-2021 10:26am

I probably carry far too much, but I am an Emergency First Responder, Community First Responder/Irish Heart Foundation Instructor, REC3 etc.

So I have a small kit in the range bag, then a couple of bigger kits and an AED in the car.

Everyone should have basics - but know how to use them -Scissors and gloves, a CPR mask, (and know how to do CPR) and then some very simple items like plasters, multiple sizes/types, some basic bandages that you can put on something to stop bleeding, some type of triangular bandage as they have 1001 uses, and probably a foil blanket.. and really, most other items in a basic first aid kit are never used.

After that - call 999/112

Most local Community First Responder Groups, or the Irish Heart Foundation will provide a basic CPR/AED course and cover items like choking and stroke etc for little to no cost.

civdef · 30-04-2021 10:29am

I put the poll choices together a bit tongue in cheek admittedly.
I’d tend more towards the “most of an ambulance” category myself- having a heavy duty responder bag in the car.
I’ve a small kit tucked in with my range bag, enough bits and bobs to tide me over in first few minutes if something nasty happened.

If people are looking for ideas for a good spec kit for stuff related to shooting, this is about the best value I’ve seen commercially given the contents-

https://www.spservices.ie/item/Parabag_ParabagPersonalAttackResponseKit_169_35_5851_1.html?sid=34505c5d48fd1bf729187681bdc7ede0

You might be able to shop around and get the individual bits a but cheaper- but that seems pretty good value.

Celox is the haemostatic agent I’ve been buying- seems to have a good evidence base and is pretty available.

All these bits of gear are no use without training - there are good sources of information available online from reputable sources, but it’s hard to beat good practical hands on training.

riffmongous · 30-04-2021 10:38am

Nothing better than a practical course to be honest, for CPR and the recovery position especially. You need that muscle memory

Feisar · 30-04-2021 10:38am

I bring nothing, stupidly. A friend cut himself badly dressing a deer a few years back. I should carry some sort of quick clot effort. But as Grizz said, there's no point in having half an A&E setup with me because I wouldn't have a clue how to use it.

kunekunesika · 30-04-2021 10:38am

I can carry a tiny bought first aid kit, a big roll of surgical tape and a spare tea towel!!! ( triangular bandage equivalent). I also carry a plb (personal locator beacon) in my pack for that really serious situation ( have the plb for other stuff, not sure I'd buy one just for stalking, but they are getting cheaper).

kunekunesika · 30-04-2021 10:42am

Just checked there, a Mc Murdo PLB will set you back 230euro. Not too bad, but everyone will be able to find you, even in an area of zero/poor coverage. Get your bolt fluted and you'll have the weight covered.

cookimonster · 30-04-2021 10:44am

I have the inner red pouch from this set as my go to field first aid kit-

https://www.military1st.ie/mo-m02-cd-02-helikon-modular-individual-med-kit-olive-green.html

You can get a fair bit of stuff into it and it will fit in a fanny pack or top of a small haversack

civdef · 30-04-2021 11:09am

Did some more browsing around- this looks like great value at €35.

https://www.douglasforestandgarden.ie/product/stein-personal-bleed-control-kit/

I’d just add a shears or knife suitable for cutting clothing to it- but a lot of shooters would have that anyway.

The tourniquet it comes with isn't as easy to use as a CAT, but still a lot better than having to improvise.

otmmyboy2 · 30-04-2021 11:44am

I do think it'd be an idea to have some ranges arrange a combination of the relevant parts from the EFR and BTEC PHECC courses for any interested members.

I've done up to EFR as part of voluntary work but I would be interested in a refresher and some practical training on tourniquet usage.

For those interested:
https://www.phecit.ie/PHECC/Education_and_careers/Recognised_institutions_and_courses/Emergency_First_Response_-_Basic_Tactical_Emergency_Care/PHECC/Education_and_careers/Recognised_institutions_and_courses/EFR-BTEC.aspx

But it need not be the entire EFR & BTEC courses, just a subset thereof.

If a range or group would be up for it I've actually a buddy who is both a very experienced first aid trainer and a paramedic to boot who I think would be up for teaching it.

CJhaughey · 30-04-2021 12:53pm

Mountain man medical in the US has an online Trauma course which is free, worth doing even if you have no FA experience.
I can't link to it on my work PC as it is blocked....
It covers a lot of the things that you might find in outdoors scenarios and I found it worthwhile as you can do it in stages not all in one go.

otmmyboy2 · 30-04-2021 1:05pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Mountain man medical in the US has an online Trauma course which is free, worth doing even if you have no FA experience.
I can't link to it on my work PC as it is blocked....
It covers a lot of the things that you might find in outdoors scenarios and I found it worthwhile as you can do it in stages not all in one go.

https://www.mountainmanmedical.com/course/emergency-trauma-response/

For those interested, it does look like an interesting course, might do it this weekend.

Grizzly 45 · 30-04-2021 1:42pm

[

QUOTE=cookimonster;117037841]

What quick clot do you have and were did you source it. I did a bit of internet searching last year but never purchased it in the end. I must get back onto it.

https://israelifirstaid.com Pretty much a one-stop-shop for1st aid kits and stuff. Shipping is a bit stiff, but the stuff is fresh and hasn't been sitting on some shelf for decades.

Grizzly 45 · 30-04-2021 2:20pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Nothing better than a practical course to be honest, for CPR and the recovery position especially. You need that muscle memory

For those who need a quick&dirty CPR...70s Disco can save someone's life. If you know the Bee Gees song Stayin Alive the beat is almost the same as a CPR required beats of 100 beats a minute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI9LXlSUmp0

civdef · 30-04-2021 2:44pm

So does “Another one bites the dust”, by Queen, just don’t sing it out loud when you’re doing the compressions ðŸ˜‚

CJhaughey · 30-04-2021 8:23pm

Pace yourselves lads, recommended is 100bpm but if you are doing compressions only you can’t do it for more than about 15 mins. Even if fit its a lot of effort. I would say slow it down a bit especially if help is not immediately coming, you don’t want to stop as clots start forming and that’s not a good thing. Make sure you are stripped off as you will get hot pretty quickly and you don’t want to stop to take off your jacket.
I instruct this and I don’t think I could do more than 15 mins at 100bpm, but if you have a buddy then it’s possible to do a lot more as you take turns and count each other in. Don’t forget to keep checking airway as well.

Grizzly 45 · 30-04-2021 8:58pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Pace yourselves lads, recommended is 100bpm but if you are doing compressions only you can’t do it for more than about 15 mins. Even if fit its a lot of effort. I would say slow it down a bit especially if help is not immediately coming, you don’t want to stop as clots start forming and that’s not a good thing. Make sure you are stripped off as you will get hot pretty quickly and you don’t want to stop to take off your jacket.
I instruct this and I don’t think I could do more than 15 mins at 100bpm, but if you have a buddy then it’s possible to do a lot more as you take turns and count each other in. Don’t forget to keep checking airway as well.

So that's Motorheads' "Ace of Spades" out then?250 BPM full tempo.:eek::D
If you have a good rock drummer in the crowd to take over, you are sorted.100 BPM is a nice walk in the park for those lads.:D

otmmyboy2 · 30-04-2021 9:25pm

Interesting pamphlet from Stop The Bleed, covering the basics:
https://www.bleedingcontrol.org/-/media/bleedingcontrol/files/stop-the-bleed-booklet.ashx

slipperyox · 30-04-2021 9:31pm

Packet of tampons for me

civdef · 30-04-2021 9:46pm

slipperyox wrote: »

Packet of tampons for me

I'll be the buzz-kill on that one:

https://www.crisis-medicine.com/heavy-flow-is-not-massive-hemorrhage-tampons-dont-belong-in-ifaks/

slipperyox · 30-04-2021 9:57pm

civdef wrote: »

I'll be the buzz-kill on that one:

https://www.crisis-medicine.com/heavy-flow-is-not-massive-hemorrhage-tampons-dont-belong-in-ifaks/

Knew id hook 1

civdef · 30-04-2021 10:01pm

Well done so.

Traumadoc · 30-04-2021 10:10pm

Saw an interesting video where a mountain biker managed to sever his femoral artery and his mates stemmed the flow by kneeling on the bleeding point.

https://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/member/WARNING-GRAPHIC-CONTENT-Cedric-Gracias-Reunion-Island-Crash,24315/iceman2058,94

Don't really carry anything much in the field , maybe a small pack for gauze dressings and a gauze bandage , keep in the car a "full" medical pack including ambu bag , basic and advanced airway stuff , defibrillator etc.

Doubt I could keep up chest compressions for more than 5 minutes - we usually swap compressors every 2 minutes or use a machine.

slipperyox · 30-04-2021 10:19pm

sodium polyacrylate was used in tampons, but banned, toxic shock etc
They were useful then, and my brother in law used them in Iraq.

But the problem with these trauma kits, is if your conscientious enough to buy, your probably so safe as to never need it. In fact most kits will never meet a causality, and expire.

Everyday objects have saved more lives, not withstanding.

civdef · 30-04-2021 10:29pm

Dangerous, nasty things those bikes - someone should ban them.

Great video, thanks for posting, will be adding that to the training playlist.

Traumadoc wrote: »

Saw an interesting video where a mountain biker managed to sever his femoral artery and his mates stemmed the flow by kneeling on the bleeding point.

https://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/member/WARNING-GRAPHIC-CONTENT-Cedric-Gracias-Reunion-Island-Crash,24315/iceman2058,94

Don't really carry anything much in the field , maybe a small pack for gauze dressings and a gauze bandage , keep in the car a "full" medical pack including ambu bag , basic and advanced airway stuff , defibrillator etc.

Doubt I could keep up chest compressions for more than 5 minutes - we usually swap compressors every 2 minutes or use a machine.

cookimonster · 01-05-2021 1:55am

slipperyox wrote: »

Everyday objects have saved more lives, not withstanding.

Done a fair share of driving lads to dressing clinics after they managed to slice themselves open, in fairness we'd have a good first aid kit to hand but nothing beats a a final wrap of the bandage with good old cling film.

The amount of times I've seen or used paper napkins wrapped in cling film as a temporary bandage to get you through service. Actually seen one lads finger tip been swiped to the side while the other lad tried to rescue the food on the chopping board.

riffmongous · 01-05-2021 9:14am

CJhaughey wrote: »

Pace yourselves lads, recommended is 100bpm but if you are doing compressions only you can’t do it for more than about 15 mins. Even if fit its a lot of effort. I would say slow it down a bit especially if help is not immediately coming, you don’t want to stop as clots start forming and that’s not a good thing. Make sure you are stripped off as you will get hot pretty quickly and you don’t want to stop to take off your jacket.
I instruct this and I don’t think I could do more than 15 mins at 100bpm, but if you have a buddy then it’s possible to do a lot more as you take turns and count each other in. Don’t forget to keep checking airway as well.

You probably won't need to do it for more than 15 mins though

After about 4 minutes practice I noticed I was struggling with the rhythm.

We trained the buddy system too, it's great also for reducing the gap between compressions and breaths, very fluid.

There are also apps available online for timing that everyone could download and have on their phone permanently

CJhaughey · 01-05-2021 11:43am

riffmongous wrote: »

You probably won't need to do it for more than 15 mins though

You keep going until you either cannot do it any longer or the Doc says they are dead.
My brother is a co-responder with London Ambulance and they get a lot of them where the person is a deader, they still do it until they get to a Hospital or a Doc says stop. Ribs breaking etc keep going....
People can be brought around especially if cold and apparently dead.

Traumadoc · 01-05-2021 2:56pm

My favourite Training video:

GooseB · 01-05-2021 3:35pm

I know there's a YouTube entertainment thread but since this relates to a shooting accident and the medical treatment afterwards I thought I'd post it here.

slipperyox · 01-05-2021 5:10pm

Never have that one last shot after the last shot:)

Luckily he had Heisenberg to save him

tudderone · 01-05-2021 5:38pm

Seeing as we are on the subject, i was out with the dog the other morning and there was an elderly woman lying on the footpath after getting a nasty fall. Two lads in a car had stopped and were giving aid, turns out they were detectives. Anyway if i was a few minutes earlier, i would have been first on scene and to be honest i really would not have known what to do.

Is there anywhere i can do a decent first aid course ? St.Johns Ambulance or something like that ?

civdef · 01-05-2021 5:53pm

Courses are a bit thinner on the ground than normal with Covid (and a lot harder to deliver), but there are loads of training providers around generally speaking.

Certified training runs from 4 hours for a CFR (cpr and AED) course, to 3 days for FAR (occupational) training.
There are more advanced training levels available too, but generally only do these if you have a specific need (and opportunities to keep skills up).

A lot of people get training for free through their work - no harm in asking there anyway.

There are free courses around - but generally they'll be non-certified. Community CFR groups do often offer free CPR courses though.

Adult education centres and Local Enterprise boards can be a good source of subsidised FAR courses. If someone is unemployed they can sometimes get them through SOLAS.

There are a few instructors on this thread even (myself included). If there was enough interest I'm sure we could put together a free course for shooters once restrictions ease off.

Grizzly 45 · 01-05-2021 6:02pm

civdef wrote: »

There are a few instructors on this thread even (myself included). If there was enough interest I'm sure we could put together a free course for shooters once restrictions ease off.

Sign me up for one.

riffmongous · 01-05-2021 7:33pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

You keep going until you either cannot do it any longer or the Doc says they are dead.
My brother is a co-responder with London Ambulance and they get a lot of them where the person is a deader, they still do it until they get to a Hospital or a Doc says stop. Ribs breaking etc keep going....
People can be brought around especially if cold and apparently dead.

Can be brought back but with what level of brain damage after 15 mins..

riffmongous · 01-05-2021 7:35pm

tudderone wrote: »

Seeing as we are on the subject, i was out with the dog the other morning and there was an elderly woman lying on the footpath after getting a nasty fall. Two lads in a car had stopped and were giving aid, turns out they were detectives. Anyway if i was a few minutes earlier, i would have been first on scene and to be honest i really would not have known what to do.

Is there anywhere i can do a decent first aid course ? St.Johns Ambulance or something like that ?

I always recommend the Red Cross since I had good experiences there

tomtucker81 · 01-05-2021 8:16pm

I have always put a decent first aid kit in the bag. Its compact and fits in a pouch. Contains plasters, bandages and scissors, wipes, gloves, tape, dressing pads and a forst aid blanket. It's actually an Oxford motorcycle first aid kit. Very compact and good handy stuff in it. Only ever used once when i carelessly sliced my thumb while dealing with a deer. Would recommend lads have one. Better looking at it than for it. Can't seem to attach a pic but the pack fits in my hand. Really compact and came in very very useful the one time it was needed

otmmyboy2 · 01-05-2021 8:40pm

civdef wrote: »

If there was enough interest I'm sure we could put together a free course for shooters once restrictions ease off.

Interested too, I'd be happy to get a refresher & help out if you need.

tudderone · 01-05-2021 9:55pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Can be brought back but with what level of brain damage after 15 mins..

Yes, there was a fly-on-the-wall hospital programme on the other night. A young woman had a heart attack and was brought in where they were able to stabilise her, but she was without oxygen for so long that her brain was basically dead. They turned the life support off after 3 days

.

CJhaughey · 02-05-2021 7:27pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Can be brought back but with what level of brain damage after 15 mins..

Maybe brain damage but maybe not, I'm not the one to make that decision.
All I can do as a first aider is provide it to the best of my ability.
I know of people pulled out of cold water after a long time that were revived and suffered no ill effects seemingly.
Again, just do what you are trained to do.
Good CPR is about 25% effective.

CJhaughey · 02-05-2021 7:53pm

If anyone wants an IPOK they are available pretty reasonably from Varusteleka.
Ideal for a basic anti-hemorrhage kit with a CAT, wound packing gauze, Flat bandage and a pair of all important gloves.
https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/nar-ipok-first-aid-kit/67464?cb=ogknxn2j&utm_medium=email&utm_source=custobar&utm_campaign=propagandakirje-05-2021-en&utm_content=products

civdef · 02-05-2021 8:28pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Again, just do what you are trained to do.
Good CPR is about 25% effective.

I've been fortunate to see a good few cases in the day job where the chain of survival works and the person makes a good recovery. In every single one of those cases, bystander CPR was underway when emergency services arrived on scene.

Short version is that unless bystanders attempt CPR, the person has really very little chance.

CJhaughey · 02-05-2021 8:44pm

civdef wrote: »

I've been fortunate to see a good few cases in the day job where the chain of survival works and the person makes a good recovery. In every single one of those cases, bystander CPR was underway when emergency services arrived on scene.

Short version is that unless bystanders attempt CPR, the person has really very little chance.

That's what I tell my students, you do nothing, and that person is dead.

Attempt CPR and even if its not 100% correct that person has a hell of a lot better chance than none at all.
There was a case just a few years back where a schoolgirl of 13-14 in Dublin witnessed a person collapse and had just had CPR training, and put it to use and saved that persons life.

It really doesn't take that much and these days with compressions only being advised it is easier than ever with no 30:2 to remember.

Traumadoc · 02-05-2021 9:06pm

Totally agree, bystander CPR is critical.

civdef · 02-05-2021 9:17pm

In fairness, looking at the average demographic profile of the typical shooting club - CPR is a topic everyone at a range probably needs too, and more likely to be used than a CAT....

CJhaughey · 02-05-2021 10:07pm

civdef wrote: »

In fairness, looking at the average demographic profile of the typical shooting club - CPR is a topic everyone at a range probably needs too, and more likely to be used than a CAT....

and a defib on site.

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First Aid?

What first aid gear do you have with you when shooting? 25 votes

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