Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

MAULBROOK · 01-04-2021 06:15PM

Get the order in for the PC21's and set them up for SAAB Gripen training, that would be a start.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/newssaab-pilatus-join-forces-to-offer-pc-21-aircarft-to-swedish-air-force-4206660/

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 01-04-2021 08:23PM

MAULBROOK wrote: »

Get the order in for the PC21's and set them up for SAAB Gripen training, that would be a start.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/newssaab-pilatus-join-forces-to-offer-pc-21-aircarft-to-swedish-air-force-4206660/

If they install a propeller at the front of the gripen then the aer corp may consider it. I can’t see them ever buying a jet of any sort unless its plush for a minister. I thought at the start of last year when our coast was a catwalk for the Russians that maybe they would consider it but looking at there attitude towards the general service and the navy it’s a pipe dream.

ohnonotgmail · 01-04-2021 10:00PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

Based on back in the Meccano days, they were able to screen pilots early on for fast jet-multi engine or rotary wing. Those who didn't make the grade were given non flying roles long before they start costing HM Govt too much. That's what the RAF Regt is for...

Gate goes up. Gate goes down.

roadmaster · 01-04-2021 10:12PM

Oh to have the OPW in charge of Defence

roadmaster · 01-04-2021 10:22PM

Dohvolle wrote: »

€60m Each you say? How about we rent them from you instead for 10 years, at €8m per year, and after that we sell them at auction?

Larry's man was trying not to laugh

newcavanman · 02-04-2021 05:54AM

Yawlboy wrote: »

But getting back to my original point, the Typhoon would be an excellent choice for air defence fighter. Reckon the UK would let them go very cheaply to us.

A good friend of min is ex RAF and now works for Bae. Hei is closely involved With Typhoon support for the RAF. He says the Tranche Ones are impossible to support and the RAF line crews will be celebrating their retirement. They are almost entirely incompatible with the rest of the fleet.
Frankly i dont ever see an Irish government having the balls or vision to buy fast jets. The only realistic possibility is that we end up with something akin to the Baltic Air Policing mission.. Of course as we won't join NATO, the only possible outcome is an EU mission
That at least might provide a bit of variety, if it was everto happen

roadmaster · 29-04-2021 09:44PM

Slightly off topic, the Pc9s are carrying out live fire excerise this week in gormanstown . But the air corps on Facebook also said the glen, Did they always do fixed wing firing there?

29-04-2021 09:50PM

Said it before and will say it again, closest we are getting to a jet fighter is a trainer / close combat.

L159 is the best of the bunch in that regard for it's money

1o059k7ewrqj3n · 29-04-2021 10:09PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpXaYHLtW4k

We should order Viggen.

ohnonotgmail · 29-04-2021 10:14PM

Steyr 556 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpXaYHLtW4k

We should order Viggen.

you want to order a plane that entered service 50 years ago and was retired 16 years ago?

saabsaab · 29-04-2021 10:32PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you want to order a plane that entered service 50 years ago and was retired 16 years ago?

It looks cool!

ohnonotgmail · 29-04-2021 10:38PM

saabsaab wrote: »

It looks cool!

you're probably biased on that

sparky42 · 29-04-2021 10:43PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Said it before and will say it again, closest we are getting to a jet fighter is a trainer / close combat.

L159 is the best of the bunch in that regard for it's money

So offering very little extra from what we have with a lot more costs... Any chance you work for the DOD?

sparky42 · 29-04-2021 10:44PM

saabsaab wrote: »

It looks cool!

It's a basic Canard Delta wing fighter, what's so special about it, and as mentioned why in the name of god would we buy decommissioned planes like that?

sparky42 · 29-04-2021 10:45PM

Just a reminder, Finland's new fighter procurement is about to get final tenders, BAE submitted theirs for the Eurofighter today, that's Finland, a neutral nation...

banie01 · 30-04-2021 09:44AM

sparky42 wrote: »

Just a reminder, Finland's new fighter procurement is about to get final tenders, BAE submitted theirs for the Eurofighter today, that's Finland, a neutral nation...

A neutral nation yes, but with a long established and fairly high tech armed forces, an acrimonious and increasingly sabre rattling neighbour to the east and no actual delusions as to the difference between "neutrality" and actually being able to defend one's state.

The Finns also have quite a tricky history of until relatively recently balanced buying Russian and NATO compatible equipment with the aim of ensuring credible conventional deterrence of Russia.
The have a long standing territorial dispute with Russia over Karelia, that is not currently pursued because there are no Finns left in Karelia.

The Finn's also have a recent martial history, granted they are often forgotten as being part of the Axis but, they have a relatively recent and even though they lost the continuation war, a successful military history that shapes attitudes to defence spending.
They are on course for 2% of GDP or more spend on defence.
I don't think that level of spending would ever happen here barring in the aftermath of an attack or similar.

banie01 · 30-04-2021 09:50AM

Dohvolle wrote: »

Saab will be detailing their proposal to the public this morning. Will be interesting to see the final offer.

I do think if a capability review of the offers was weighted towards running costs and actual proven compatibility with Finnish needs, which are similar enough to Sweden's even down to their military cooperation and past Saab use (albeit quite historic now) that the Gripen E would win the bid.

Its hard to see past a US win here tho, even the German's are buying US if the current rumours are to be believed.
F18E/F are likely the choice there to add EAD suppression and keep nuclear capability post Tornado's final retirement.

30-04-2021 09:51AM

sparky42 wrote: »

So offering very little extra from what we have with a lot more costs... Any chance you work for the DOD?

It offers far far more than what we have for not much extra.

ohnonotgmail · 30-04-2021 09:55AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It offers far far more than what we have for not much extra.

far more than we have, not enough for what we need. If we are getting jets we need to get an interceptor. the L159 is not an interceptor.

sparky42 · 30-04-2021 01:01PM

banie01 wrote: »

I do think if a capability review of the offers was weighted towards running costs and actual proven compatibility with Finnish needs, which are similar enough to Sweden's even down to their military cooperation and past Saab use (albeit quite historic now) that the Gripen E would win the bid.

Its hard to see past a US win here tho, even the German's are buying US if the current rumours are to be believed.
F18E/F are likely the choice there to add EAD suppression and keep nuclear capability post Tornado's final retirement.

To be fair the Germans are also buying new Typhoons as well, but as you say it’s to keep the nuclear capabilities. For Finland I expect the US is going to put huge pressure on them to buy American, be interesting to see if the go F18 E/F or 35.

ohnonotgmail · 30-04-2021 01:03PM

sparky42 wrote: »

To be fair the Germans are also buying new Typhoons as well, but as you say it’s to keep the nuclear capabilities. For Finland I expect the US is going to put huge pressure on them to buy American, be interesting to see if the go F18 E/F or 35.

what leverage would the US have over Finland?

banie01 · 30-04-2021 01:11PM

sparky42 wrote: »

To be fair the Germans are also buying new Typhoons as well, but as you say it’s to keep the nuclear capabilities. For Finland I expect the US is going to put huge pressure on them to buy American, be interesting to see if the go F18 E/F or 35.

Agreed, its unfortunate for Eurofighter though that the Germans aren't seeking to develop a similar Nuke and suppresion of EAD role for the Eurofighter.
That said, I'd guess the EF's wing area makes sustained high speed, low level flight uncomfortable to say the least.
That part of the flight envelope is one that the tornado excelled at.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what leverage would the US have over Finland?

The Finns already fly the legacy F18 and as such there is a high degree of compatibility between their existing F18 specific ground maintenance equipment and training.
They could well spin in training cost savings and compatibility with already in place systems as well as the usual industrial offsets.

the transition for pilots from legacy F18 to F18e is also designed to be very straightforward so ground training and flight training costs are reduced for moving to the E versus an entirely new platform.
In addition to that, Boeing will likely bend over backwards to make any deal for F18s very attractive. They are haemorrhaging cash and need as many military contracts as possible IMO.

Heraldoffreeent · 30-04-2021 02:50PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what leverage would the US have over Finland?

banie01 wrote: »

Agreed, its unfortunate for Eurofighter though that the Germans aren't seeking to develop a similar Nuke and suppresion of EAD role for the Eurofighter.
That said, I'd guess the EF's wing area makes sustained high speed, low level flight uncomfortable to say the least.
That part of the flight envelope is one that the tornado excelled at.

The Finns already fly the legacy F18 and as such there is a high degree of compatibility between their existing F18 specific ground maintenance equipment and training.
They could well spin in training cost savings and compatibility with already in place systems as well as the usual industrial offsets.

the transition for pilots from legacy F18 to F18e is also designed to be very straightforward so ground training and flight training costs are reduced for moving to the E versus an entirely new platform.
In addition to that, Boeing will likely bend over backwards to make any deal for F18s very attractive. They are haemorrhaging cash and need as many military contracts as possible IMO.

Aren't the Finns after buying the Growler? Hard to see them going for anything other than the F/A 18 if thats already on board.

Larbre34 · 30-04-2021 03:09PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It offers far far more than what we have for not much extra.

Simply not true.

L159 is a trainer / light strike. PC-9 is a trainer / light strike. Both are so far off fast interceptor capability that it doesn't matter it they do 600 kph or 900 kph, to get across the Country and catch up to any aggressor or rogue aircraft, you need 2,000 kph+ and so there is simply zero logic to bringing on the L159 with all its additional technical demands, simply to stick on an annual report that we have some jets.

You're forgetting too, in the aftermath of 9/11 some of the L39/L59/L159 models were evaluated by the Air Corps at Baldonnell for interception purposes and found to be unsuitable. I remember them doing aerobatic flights over South Dublin at the time.

That post 9/11 period was the most likely in modern history for the Air Corps to have got Government approval to buy them, but, put yourself in their shoes. Had the Government bought 10 or 12 of the type and made a huge deal of them to an anxious public and had an emergency situation arisen where the 159s were unable to perform as the Government and the public expected, there would have been a scandal. There were (and still are) ancillary issues such as the lack of a primary radar system making interceptors effectively moot.

And so, the only upcoming combat aircraft acquisitions of use in the coming years would be the replacement of the PC-9s with something like a PC-21, and the purchase or lease of fast interceptor / air superiority fighters and a military radar and support structure to operate them.

jonnybigwallet · 30-04-2021 03:48PM

Indeed. Another more viable option with decent interception capabitity at a good price is the KIA F series in one of its more advanced variants with a few of the training version in the squadron....

sparky42 · 30-04-2021 04:56PM

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Aren't the Finns after buying the Growler? Hard to see them going for anything other than the F/A 18 if thats already on board.

No the Growler is on offer for the purchase along with the E/F.

30-04-2021 07:30PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

far more than we have, not enough for what we need. If we are getting jets we need to get an interceptor. the L159 is not an interceptor.

Your not getting a genuine 4th gen interceptor so you're option is pc9 which takes days to add rocket pods or the l39 which is a better trainer and has at least some intercept ability ie missiles with greater speed and distance.

The pc9 serves absolutely no defensive purpose. It's a pure trainer. A basic one at that.

For the limited increase in costs I think the gains are worth it and now importantly, could fit into a budget

MAULBROOK · 30-04-2021 08:02PM

We have 26 aircraft, 16 fixed wing. 4 are new and nearly all the rest are up for replacement.
Lets not forget the Helicopters are no spring chickens, 13/14 years old.
Their is not a hope in hell we are getting a small fleet of jets.

saabsaab · 30-04-2021 08:13PM

MAULBROOK wrote: »

We have 26 aircraft, 16 fixed wing. 4 are new and nearly all the rest are up for replacement.
Lets not forget the Helicopters are no spring chickens, 13/14 years old.
Their is not a hope in hell we are getting a small fleet of jets.

We are the westernmost outpost of the EU and between us and mainland EU there is a destabilized UK might be time for such a force.

ohnonotgmail · 30-04-2021 08:20PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Your not getting a genuine 4th gen interceptor so you're option is pc9 which takes days to add rocket pods or the l39 which is a better trainer and has at least some intercept ability ie missiles with greater speed and distance.

The pc9 serves absolutely no defensive purpose. It's a pure trainer. A basic one at that.

For the limited increase in costs I think the gains are worth it and now importantly, could fit into a budget

an L39 is not an interceptor and is of no use for that role. by the time it reaches the target the target will be at home having its dinner.

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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