Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X Read OP For Mod Warnings

JRant · 14-04-2021 11:42PM

gozunda wrote: »

Where exactly are you pulling your ideas about this " deal" you're talking about?

From the beginning the approach was that the vulnerable would cocoon and the rest of us would engage in a bit if cop on to keep the rate of infection down. And again this idea about "the collapse of the health service" is pure bolloxology. The stared aim was to keep infection rate low to allow the health service cope with all those who did becone seriously ill and require specialist care. And that continues whilst the largest vaccination programme in the states history is rolled out.

Whats for sure is that ongoing moronic twtterings about 'civil liberties' simply sounds like yet another angle on the whole CT refusal to acknowledge the existence of the pandemic or that the current restrictions were brought in to keep the rate of infection down.

As to resources - you may have missed it but yes there has been increased capacity with up to a 1700 covid patients being dealt in dedicated covid wards and icu.

A significant amount of money has been spent on coping with the redeployment of existing healtcare services towards the treatment and management of covid patients and increased real-time ICU admissions.

And yes we have seen a rise in ICU capacity. Available data shows the baseline capacity in ICU increased up to 280 up from 255 in March / April 2020. Afaik the surge capacity for ICU beds stands at approx 350.

It also has to be understood that ICU capacity is not just beds - but also fully trained and available clinical staff, clinical space, clinical equipment, PPE, oxygen supply and Hospital / Hospital Group / HSE system supports. And yes more ventilators were bought although less invasive oxygen support is increasingly used where possible.

Its like some think we're the only country in the world to have used restrictions to help manage the rate of infection. News for ya - we're not.

Sheesh, those pesky civil liberties getting in the way again. Sure, the government should be able to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants and trample all over those civil liberties if they see fit to do so.

An astronomical amount of money has been spent this past year to double our waiting lists and cancel who knows how many procedures, screenings etc.

Whoop de do, we got our ICU capacity back to 2009 levels. Where can I send a congratulatory letter to show my undieing appreciation?

Speaking of ventilators, did Leo's mate ever come up with the ventilators he promised in that multimillion euro deal with zero oversight?

gozunda · 14-04-2021 11:44PM

JRant wrote: »

Sheesh, those pesky civil liberties getting in the way again. Sure, the government should be able to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants and trample all over those civil liberties if they see fit to do so.

An astronomical amount of money has been spent this past year to double our waiting lists and cancel who knows how many procedures, screenings etc.

Whoop de do, we got our ICU capacity back to 2009 levels. Where can I send a congratulatory letter to show my undieing appreciation?

Speaking of ventilators, did Leo's mate ever come up with the ventilators he promised in that multimillion euro deal with zero oversight?

Said no one never.

But yes we're in the midst of a global pandemic. Not that you'd know it on this thread sometimes.

But ya de gubbermint :rolleyes:

shtpEdthePlum · 14-04-2021 11:46PM

JRant wrote: »

Speaking of ventilators, did Leo's mate ever come up with the ventilators he promised in that multimillion euro deal with zero oversight?

No but ROQU is doing the "health passport" for the state, which isn't totalitarian in the least.

drkpower · 14-04-2021 11:47PM

gozunda wrote: »

And yet none of that equates with your story that

The vulnerable were advised to cocoon where possible and health service resources were ramped up so it could cope with those who needed specialist medical treatment. With restrictions brought to try and keep the rate of infection down.

How many times does this have to be repeated. Deaths are not the only issue in relation to this pandemic. A rise in infections means more people get seriously ill and require hospitalisation. And approx 50% of those in hospital with covid are under 65. A rate which was seen prior to vaccination being started.

Well thats exactly how current mutterings about 'civil liberties" comes across. And this pandemic is something the absolute majority of current generations have never had to deal with. So no these restrictions haven't been known in modern times. The risk of rising rates of infection and the impacts of that are significant risks as outlined. And despite the start of the vaccination programme - that risk remains. See Germany currently looking to add additional state wide restrictions because of increasing number of new covid cases there.

Much like the current situation in the UK - that risk will reduce as a larger number are vaccinated. Until then its a waiting game.

The 2 quotes of mine say exactly the same thing!

I never said deaths were the only thing; I said hospitalsations were key. Case numbers are irrelevant (other than being a helpful tracking device)

For me, and I had thought most, civil liberties are a pre-requisite to a happy existence. After all, it tends to be what people fight revolutions over. We don’t tend to,do the same over a right to healthcare for instance. If you want to take that from me - and you apparently do - you need a better justification than rates of infection. Covid is going to be endemic here for some time; we need to get used to it. And as we do, we will need to,focus on a massive spike in cancer and other deaths and bad outcomes directly due to lockdown. There is more than one side to the public health ledger; you are only looking at one side.

ypres5 · 14-04-2021 11:48PM

drkpower wrote: »

+1

Between Canada, aus, nz and Uk, there are c. 5000 Irish doctors practising and the rate of increase has been significantly upwards since the 2009 30pc cut to new entry consultant pay.

The waste to our system is frightening in so many levels

True, we train some of the best medical professionals in the world and we train them for export and it seems the lads at the trough are happy for it to remain so

ypres5 · 14-04-2021 11:53PM

Fandymo wrote: »

The ones that were happy to screw the Aus/Canadian health service and patients?? I’m sure they would definitely stay in Ireland if the NHS or a desert country batted their eyelashes/wallet at them. Not mercenaries at all.

I don't see how emigrating for better career opportunities, working conditions and make someone a mercenary. That's the ridiculous crabs in a bucket claptrap thats got us a 3rd world health service

Chivito550 · 15-04-2021 12:00AM

I'm sick of hearing about a "4th wave". How long do they plan on counting waves for? It's like 4th cousins - people stop counting cousins after second, third at a stretch.

Pure sceptic sh1te this is.

Graham · 15-04-2021 12:03AM

ypres5 wrote: »

I don't see how emigrating for better career opportunities, working conditions and make someone a mercenary. That's the ridiculous crabs in a bucket claptrap thats got us a 3rd world health service

Are we expecting a sudden/dramatic increase in hospitalisations?

Stormyteacup · 15-04-2021 12:17AM

Graham wrote: »

Are we expecting a sudden/dramatic increase in hospitalisations?

Wait - so we’re not preparing for any possible future surge from current virus mutations, existing virus mutations or brand new viruses? We are grand as we are?

Well to be fair if you lockdown a nation, you’ll save a few bob on healthcare.

Graham · 15-04-2021 12:43AM

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Wait - so we’re not preparing for any possible future surge from current virus mutations, existing virus mutations or brand new viruses? We are grand as we are?

I'm trying to reconcile why some posters are calling for a significant relaxing of restrictions at the same time as calling for a ramping up of hospital capacity.

15-04-2021 01:13AM

bb1234567 wrote: »

But that's what I'm talking about, all I hear is that it's ruined, that seems very kind of vague and abstract and with absolutely no context and so it's hard to foresee what kind of consequence it will have for the average person. Especially as a lot of poeple clearly havn't felt any effects of this allegedly ruined economy, and if it was ruined, that wouldn't make sense. Perhaps only ruined for some people then? Or has the impact just not become evident yet, for those others?

Like if it was ruined like in the celtic tiger, then we'd hear more people saying that they are in same economic position as then, when most of the country struggled. Clearly a lot of people are struggling currently no doubt, but obviously a huge number of others aren't yet at least and are certainly living very comfortably still. So that's what I mean, clearly it is nothing like the 2000\s recession yet in it's impact nationally. But why? Why is it unfolding differently? Will everyone be affected? How evenly spread will it be? How long lasting will it be, will it be like other recessions or different, better , worse? My extended family's construction business was devastated in the Celtic Tiger recession, many of my uncles and aunts were going bankrupt. This time, in this ruined economy, none of them seem to be under any financial stress whatsoever. So it is absolutely different in crucial ways to prior recessions. All I hear is people saying economy is destroyed without much other substance added, and it makes it very unclear how much damage has actually been done, how it compares to other ecnomic periods of distress, or what would need to be done to improve it.

If there were more complex , but clearly conveyed, arguments on the public platfems about the economy, maybe we'd see more people stand against restrictions, if the impact it will have on them indivdually long term is told to them straight.

Why is it unfolding differently to the previous recession as you ask.

Maybe one reason is because people were never before paid to stay at home, during the last recession people emigrated in their thousands as there were no jobs here.

Another could be that people are forbidden from opening their businesses, whereas during the last recession businesses weren’t told to close but just went bust.

Another could be that there was no covid before and there is therefore nothing to compare it to.

You ask a lot of good questions this is just one take on it. Probably other factors in there too.

GT89 · 15-04-2021 01:15AM

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm sick of hearing about a "4th wave". How long do they plan on counting waves for? It's like 4th cousins - people stop counting cousins after second, third at a stretch.

Pure sceptic sh1te this is.

https://youtu.be/lYSIGISTWh8

gozunda · 15-04-2021 01:38AM

drkpower wrote: »

The 2 quotes of mine say exactly the same thing!

Nope.

The two quotes - the first which details some mysterious 'deal'

drkpower wrote:

The ‘deal’ was that we suspend our liberties to protect the vulnerable and avoid the actual collapse of the health service. Both have been achieved.

The second which talks of some type of "mantra"

drkpower wrote:

Protect the vulnerable/protect the health service was the very mantra at the very outset of the pandemic.

The fact remains that from the offset- it was well detailed that the vulnerable were to cocoon where possible, restrictions were brought in to help reduce and keep down the rate of infection so healthcare services could continue to cope with treating those who did get seriously ill.

drkpower wrote: »

I never said deaths were the only thing; I said hospitalsations were key. Case numbers are irrelevant (other than being a helpful tracking device)

This was your comment regarding managing the rate of infection where you referred to death

drkpower wrote:

Keeping the infection rate low of itself is of little use; in younger age groups the morbidity and mortality of cv19 is not dissimilar to other infectious diseases ...

A point irrelevant as pointed out approx 50% of those in hospital with covid are under 65. And the death rate / mortality is not the only consideration. And case numbers have been an important predictor of the numbers likley to be hospitalised tidate.

drkpower wrote: »

For me, and I had thought most, civil liberties are a pre-requisite to a happy existence. After all, it tends to be what people fight revolutions over. We don’t tend to,do the same over a right to healthcare for instance. If you want to take that from me - and you apparently do - you need a better justification than rates of infection. Covid is going to be endemic here for some time; we need to get used to it. And as we do, we will need to,focus on a massive spike in cancer and other deaths and bad outcomes directly due to lockdown. There is more than one side to the public health ledger; you are only looking at one side.

We know the restrictions (brought in under emergency legislation) are there for a reason. And are temporary in nature due to the emergency of the pandemic. Its not like Ireland has decided to align itself politically and sociological with North Korea or wherever. We have restrictions due to an ongoing global pandemic

Again the control of the rate of infection was to provide for those who got ill / seriously ill access to healthcare care services. We now have vaccination. With that the rate of infection for all age groups will fall. That means going forward covid will be most likley managed by repeated annual vaccination.

And yes it is acknowledged that other medical services and treatments were limited for cancer etc. Part of that was to help reduce the risk of those cocooning from being infected but also to ensure that healthcare resources were directed where there was immediate need. I believe approx 50% of such treatments overall were affected so not all. And yes these conditions will have to be prioritised as soon as possible.

What is for certain - that these treatments would not have gone ahead - where we had repeated scenes like those of January / February 2021.

Penfailed · 15-04-2021 07:03AM

rob316 wrote: »

I don't see foreign travel been reinstated this summer at all, not because of the virus but for economic reasons. The hospitality sector will need a boost and what better way than to keep us all in rip off republic. I'll sit out my back for the summer than pay 2 grand for a house down in Kerry for a week.

Great logic...

arccosh · 15-04-2021 07:12AM

Graham wrote: »

I'm trying to reconcile why some posters are calling for a significant relaxing of restrictions at the same time as calling for a ramping up of hospital capacity.

this...

oxymoron life

Sobit1964 · 15-04-2021 07:13AM

Graham wrote: »

I'm trying to reconcile why some posters are calling for a significant relaxing of restrictions at the same time as calling for a ramping up of hospital capacity.

To deal with the problems that have been created by the lockdown?

Fandymo · 15-04-2021 07:35AM

ypres5 wrote: »

I don't see how emigrating for better career opportunities, working conditions and make someone a mercenary. That's the ridiculous crabs in a bucket claptrap thats got us a 3rd world health service

The moving away wasn’t the issue. It was the ditching of the jobs/patients they had when what seemed like a better deal came along. You think they wouldn’t do the same when here?? I remember an Irish nurse crying on the radio when Covid was ramping up in WA, because all the paddy drs and nurses had decided to leave, with no notice, and she’d no idea how she was going to do a roster with the staff she had left.

Quantum Erasure · 15-04-2021 07:37AM

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm sick of hearing about a "4th wave". How long do they plan on counting waves for? It's like 4th cousins - people stop counting cousins after second, third at a stretch.

Pure sceptic sh1te this is.

Have you ever seen fire in zero gravity? It's beautiful. It's like liquid it... slides all over everything. Comes up in waves. And they just kept hitting him, wave after wave. He was screaming for me to save him....

Fandymo · 15-04-2021 07:38AM

Graham wrote: »

I'm trying to reconcile why some posters are calling for a significant relaxing of restrictions at the same time as calling for a ramping up of hospital capacity.

Are you new to Ireland?? Every year, pre-Covid we have this thing called a winter. Every winter we have over crowded hospitals, patients in the corridors, patients stuck on trolleys, hell one year we even had corpses on trolleys leaking all over the place. Were you happy with that?

JRant · 15-04-2021 07:41AM

gozunda wrote: »

Said no one never.

But yes we're in the midst of a global pandemic. Not that you'd know it on this thread sometimes.

But ya de gubbermint :rolleyes:

Just because there's a pandemic doesn't give the government carte blanche to do whatever they like. It is supposed to be a proportional response. Even the health act that they are using states that. Proportional should mean as the risk goes down our civil liberties should be returned. That's not happening and if anything they are becoming more draconian.

I see you mentioned that screenings etc were cancelled to reduce the risk for those that were cocooning. That's a complete paradox though. All it does is move the risk from one type of disease to another, seemingly with no plan on when or how they can get back to a proper level of healthcare for non COVID illnesses.

the kelt · 15-04-2021 07:45AM

Graham wrote: »

I just don't believe there are hundreds of medical staff clamouring to get back here for what would amount to temporary jobs (or permanent for that matter).

I think we're better off concentrating on preventing hospitalisations than increasing capacity at this stage.

Reducing case numbers and hospitalisations (and keeping them low) while increasing vaccinations is the solution.

The issue is even if COVID had never existed increasing capacity was always required.

Unless we plan to just lockdown now every time flu season hits in a world post COVID

JRant · 15-04-2021 07:47AM

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Have you ever seen fire in zero gravity? It's beautiful. It's like liquid it... slides all over everything. Comes up in waves. And they just kept hitting him, wave after wave. He was screaming for me to save him....

Very underrated movie.

big syke · 15-04-2021 07:56AM

Graham wrote: »

I'm trying to reconcile why some posters are calling for a significant relaxing of restrictions at the same time as calling for a ramping up of hospital capacity.

So you have to want one or the other???

_Kaiser_ · 15-04-2021 07:59AM

gozunda wrote: »

Said no one never.

But yes we're in the midst of a global pandemic. Not that you'd know it on this thread sometimes.

But ya de gubbermint :rolleyes:

More like "but but... the pandemic!" from some really.

A pandemic which makes a very small number in this country sick, and even fewer that die (both of which are an extremely good thing), and we have now almost fully vaccinated the most vulnerable yet some continue to persist with the notion that there's a deadly plague out there.

"But... case numbers!" is another one that's used - ever hear the phrase "a difference that makes no difference, IS no difference", because for the majority of people in this country that's what being a case means to them. Many don't even realise they have Covid unless told by a test.

Again... 13 months on, less than 5000 deaths in a population of 4.9 million. There were more deaths in a single quarter last year from cancer, dementia and other causes than there have from Covid overall.
Hospitals NOT overrun and only a handful in ICU now, and a year's worth of data and experience with Covid yet the messaging is the same as it was in the early phases last year when we knew nothing about this virus.

I genuinely do not understand why some continue to deny the above or for what reasons. It's either a refusal to back down at this stage for fear of losing face, or because they personally are somehow benefitting (saving money WFH, enjoying the extra time with family etc).

If it's because they genuinely believe that Covid is still the deadly killer it was feared to be in February/March 2020 then frankly that just doesn't stack up with the actual data, and they really should turn off RTE and the daily NPHET scaremongering at this stage.

When the real extent of the damage that has been done to the economy, employment, communities and mental health comes to light, coupled with the inevitable scandals around the decisions that have been made, and of course the return to austerity to pay for it all, I wonder if they'll still be thinking it was all worth it.

Lumen · 15-04-2021 08:03AM

the kelt wrote: »

The issue is even if COVID had never existed increasing capacity was always required.

Unless we plan to just lockdown now every time flu season hits in a world post COVID

More ICU capacity does not change the case for lockdown. Germany has several times our ICU capacity, and yet the German cabinet had just approved an "emergency brake" to force states to impose measures.

the kelt · 15-04-2021 08:12AM

Lumen wrote: »

More ICU capacity does not change the case for lockdown. Germany has several times our ICU capacity, and yet the German cabinet had just approved an "emergency brake" to force states to impose measures.

I never said it did. That’s why I said even if COVID never existed!

Im presuming no COVID = no lockdown!

Although I’m beginning to wonder for the future post COVID

It’s is kinda funny hearing arguments against getting our health service running as well as it possibly can be, because it doesn’t help with COVID yet suggest that all people are concerned about these days is preventing a COVID death and nothing else and it’s called a straw man argument by said same people.

_Kaiser_ · 15-04-2021 08:22AM

the kelt wrote: »

I never said it did. That’s why I said even if COVID never existed!

Im presuming no COVID = no lockdown!

Although I’m beginning to wonder for the future post COVID

And with good reason IMO. Not only has the precedent now been set, but it's deeply worrying how many people are content to just give up their rights and freedoms based on little more than speculation and fearmongering for the most part.

the kelt · 15-04-2021 08:29AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

And with good reason IMO. Not only has the precedent now been set, but it's deeply worrying how many people are content to just give up their rights and freedoms based on little more than speculation and fearmongering for the most part.

As I said above in an edit.

It’s is kinda funny hearing arguments against getting our health service running as well as it possibly can be, because it doesn’t help with COVID yet suggest that all people are concerned about these days is preventing a COVID death and nothing else and it’s called a straw man argument by said same people.

Why do I get a feeling that once COVID is done and dusted and hospitals are over run every winter and more people are dying from other diseases missed or not treated during these times that a lot of people won’t actually give a ****e but will sit up till all hours every night to defend COVID policy

Graham · 15-04-2021 08:31AM

Fandymo wrote: »

Are you new to Ireland?? Every year, pre-Covid we have this thing called a winter. Every winter we have over crowded hospitals, patients in the corridors, patients stuck on trolleys, hell one year we even had corpses on trolleys leaking all over the place. Were you happy with that?

Cool story Fandymo, what has that got to do with relaxing restrictions?

JeffKenna · 15-04-2021 08:35AM

Graham wrote: »

Cool story Fandymo, what has that got to do with relaxing restrictions?

It's why people might want to relax restrictions yet call for a ramp up of hospital capacity.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X Read OP For Mod Warnings