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What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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Comments

  • #5552
    rm212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭rm212


    brendanwalsh wrote: »
    France and Germany mixing vaccines.

    You’ll be fine.

    You got some protection from your first shot, avoid the second one due to risk of brain clot and when Pfizer is more available you can get that into you.

    I mean... it is very tempting to go that route. Here’s the thing, if we had the luxury of having more supply than demand of vaccines, there’s no chance the AZ vaccine would be used over the mRNA vaccines. Even though the risk is very low, the alternative vaccines over higher protection, faster time to full vaccination and no observed risk of CVST. We are only using it because we are in a desperate position with low levels of supply. Australia have very low rate of infections so they’re being picky and not using AZ or J&J.

    I don’t know.. I’m going to think long and hard about this over the coming weeks.


  • #5553
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,326 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    rm212 wrote: »
    That’s presumably why they said to wait 16 weeks if you’re under 60 and got it but DON’T have a medical condition. They’re waiting on more data as to whether the second dose can be dangerous.

    For people like me with a condition though, they’re going ahead with 12 weeks it seems.

    Anxiety?, don't take me up wrong for questioning it but isn't that more of a mental health than physical health issue, you not any more at risk than anyone else your age. Wouldn't it be prudent to wait the 16 if your not at risk.


  • #5554
    rm212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭rm212


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Anxiety?, don't take me up wrong for questioning it but isn't that more of a mental health than physical health issue, you not any more at risk than anyone else your age. Wouldn't it be prudent to wait the 16 if your not at risk.

    That’s not the health condition I’m getting the vaccine for. And I think it would be prudent to wait the 16 by the way - I’m questioning why they’re using people with conditions as second dose guinea pigs when they’re already partially protected anyway?


  • #5555
    Beanybabog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭Beanybabog


    rm212 wrote: »
    That’s not the health condition I’m getting the vaccine for. And I think it would be prudent to wait the 16 by the way - I’m questioning why they’re using people with conditions as second dose guinea pigs when they’re already partially protected anyway?

    I think because they’re at much higher risk if they get covid? So the benefit outweighs the risk of the vaccine


  • #5556
    Halfdane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49 ✭✭Halfdane


    rm212 wrote: »
    That’s not the health condition I’m getting the vaccine for. And I think it would be prudent to wait the 16 by the way - I’m questioning why they’re using people with conditions as second dose guinea pigs when they’re already partially protected anyway?

    This is why they should offer the AZ to everyone at 12 weeks and make them sign a waiver if they want it. I would happily be a guinea pig at the 12 week mark whereas others (like yourself) would rather wait but are being forced to take it sooner.


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  • #5557
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,326 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    rm212 wrote: »
    That’s not the health condition I’m getting the vaccine for. And I think it would be prudent to wait the 16 by the way - I’m questioning why they’re using people with conditions as second dose guinea pigs when they’re already partially protected anyway?

    I don't think any harm stretching it out, it's winter you want the booster to have maximum effect. Could you just not turn up.
    Yea you would wonder, don't wonder too much though as you could end up in the bolling frog thread.


  • #5558
    rm212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭rm212


    Beanybabog wrote: »
    I think because they’re at much higher risk if they get covid? So the benefit outweighs the risk of the vaccine

    Yeah, but not so much with 1 dose already. The second dose appears to only increase the AZ vaccine effectiveness by a few % from what we have seen - it appears to be mostly to prolong the immunity. I would understand if we were talking about first doses here, but this is people who already have quite a good level of protection.


  • #5559
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,717 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    rm212 wrote: »
    Yeah, but not so much with 1 dose already. The second dose appears to only increase the AZ vaccine effectiveness by a few % from what we have seen - it appears to be mostly to prolong the immunity. I would understand if we were talking about first doses here, but this is people who already have quite a good level of protection.

    Problem is we don't know how long immunity lasts with only one dose. It might conceivably last only six months or something, making the second booster shot perhaps vital.


  • #5560
    rm212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭rm212


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Problem is we don't know how long immunity lasts with only one dose. It might conceivably last only six months or something, making the second booster shot perhaps vital.

    Yes I wasn’t talking about not giving the second dose at all, but why don’t they postpone to 16 weeks as well for that cohort, to gather more data about whether the second dose is safe, which is what they’re doing with those without a medical condition. Those with a medical condition will still be partially protected by dose 1 while they deliberate and collect data on safety.


  • #5561
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,717 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    rm212 wrote: »
    Yes I wasn’t talking about not giving the second dose at all, but why don’t they postpone to 16 weeks as well for that cohort, to gather more data about whether the second dose is safe, which is what they’re doing with those without a medical condition. Those with a medical condition will still be partially protected by dose 1 while they deliberate and collect data on safety.

    I reckon they're just trying to buy time and keep a close eye on what is happening with second doses in the UK. They've been vaccinating with AZ since December and are pretty much the guinea pigs at the moment.


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  • #5562
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    brendanwalsh wrote: »
    France and Germany mixing vaccines.

    You’ll be fine.

    You got some protection from your first shot, avoid the second one due to risk of brain clot and when Pfizer is more available you can get that into you.
    We can't choose which vaccines we receive, if someone refuses the second AZ vaccine then that's where it ends. I can't see this situation changing even in the Autumn.

    Just on a purely practical level, when a centre receives its allocation of vaccines, they are sent the exact same allocation for the second dose. They won't be shipping a special dose of a different vaccine to a GP surgery for one person who had a change of mind.

    In fact, I wonder if that second AZ vaccine wouldn't simply be going to waste, because a third round of delivery may not be due for any "substitute" recipient. Luckily AZ can be stored in a fridge, but I'm not sure how long it can be stored for in an open vial. Either way, it just creates an unnecessary mess.

    A person is as likely to die in a car crash as to have a brain incident as a result of the AZ vaccine. The AZ shot is probably even safer, considering this person already had it safely. It's an awful lot of hassle to create over a risk level of this nature. If someone were this hesitant about getting into a car, it would be called an irrational phobia.


  • #5563
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,290 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They are just discussing AZ and second doses on Norning Ireland. According to Dr Mary Favier, if you are going to develop the rare adverse clotting reaction you will do so on the first dose, and if you have gone through the initial vaccination without issue, the second one doesn't pose a problem. Seems to be the case that it either WILL definitely cause the rate reaction in those very few with a propensity to it, but that the vast majority simply don't have the immune make-up for that to be a risk at all. It's the not-knowing if you are in that tiny cohort where the problem initially lies, and a genetic test will likely emerge to further determine this risk... however not in time to be of practical benefit any time soon. Hence the more crude overall risk versus benefit algorithm which determines which groups get AZ.


  • #5564
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,127 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Everyone will know what vaccine they will get before they are due to get theirs. It may be on the text message or at the latest when you arrive for your vaccine wherever you are supposed to get it. You will not be blindfolded and jabbed without your consent and you can discuss the vaccine with the vaccinator at the location where you are due to get it. You cannot choose which vaccine you will be getting but you do not have to accept the vaccine on the day either, we live in a free society so you can decide not to take it. There may not be another one for you on the day though so it may take a little while to get an appointment again and even then it may be the same vaccine again.

    This information is all on hse.ie about the vaccines.

    Getting your COVID-19 vaccine
    Which COVID-19 vaccine you will get
    You do not get to choose which vaccine you get. The type of vaccine offered to you will be based on supply.

    Going to a COVID-19 vaccination centre
    Getting your vaccine
    You will be shown to a vaccination booth. You will get your COVID-19 vaccine as an injection in your upper arm.

    The person who gives you your vaccine is called a "vaccinator". They are a trained healthcare professional. They could be a nurse, doctor, pharmacist, advanced paramedic or physiotherapist.

    Your vaccinator will:

    answer any questions you may have
    confirm your consent to get the vaccine
    give you the vaccine
    give you an aftercare advice leaflet
    give you a vaccine record card – this will show the name and batch number of the vaccine you get

    As for the delayed timing of the second doses, at least that is what the recommendation seems to be, makes sense to me. While they are finding out more information about the effects this may have for those that have received it, delay getting the second dose to ensure it is safe. We can always try to give another vaccine to those that is deemed risky than jabbing them and hoping for the best.


  • #5565
    Apoapsis Rex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Apoapsis Rex


    If they are not going to give a different vaccine to the people who received their 1st AZ vaccine dose, then what are they going to do with boosters in 6 months or a year?


  • #5566
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Apoapsis Rex wrote: »
    If they are not going to give a different vaccine to the people who received their 1st AZ vaccine dose, then what are they going to do with boosters in 6 months or a year?

    The boosters each year will be determined by what variant is going around Australia 6 months before/ who comes up with a vaccine/ who can be bothered to still make covid vaccines/ which brand is cheapest.

    What version of vaccination you have had in 2021 will have no bearing on the version you are given, or if you are even given, in 2022.


  • #5567
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    robinph wrote: »
    The boosters each year will be determined by what variant is going around Australia 6 months before/ who comes up with a vaccine/ who can be bothered to still make covid vaccines/ which brand is cheapest.

    What version of vaccination you have had in 2021 will have no bearing on the version you are given, or if you are even given, in 2022.
    DeGascun has suggested that we may not even need annual shots, save the usual who'd get the flu' jab. All of the predictions about COVID are based on it still circulating widely and not how it behaves in a largely vaccinated world.


  • #5568
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    is_that_so wrote: »
    DeGascun has suggested that we may not even need annual shots, save the usual who'd get the flu' jab. All of the predictions about COVID are based on it still circulating widely and not how it behaves in a largely vaccinated world.

    Yeah, after this year there shouldn't really be any need for half the population to get vaccinated repeatedly for it. At the moment it's still about getting the cases so low that we can open things up again without overwhelming health systems and also so that we can handle influxes of people from other countries.

    Once this has passed it will just be those who normally get the flu jab, possibly extending the range who are offered it a bit more than previously. Then within a couple of years it will be a combination flu/ covid jab. We'll then find the level of cases which society is able to accept, and get on with life.


  • #5569
    rm212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭rm212


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They are just discussing AZ and second doses on Norning Ireland. According to Dr Mary Favier, if you are going to develop the rare adverse clotting reaction you will do so on the first dose, and if you have gone through the initial vaccination without issue, the second one doesn't pose a problem. Seems to be the case that it either WILL definitely cause the rate reaction in those very few with a propensity to it, but that the vast majority simply don't have the immune make-up for that to be a risk at all. It's the not-knowing if you are in that tiny cohort where the problem initially lies, and a genetic test will likely emerge to further determine this risk... however not in time to be of practical benefit any time soon. Hence the more crude overall risk versus benefit algorithm which determines which groups get AZ.

    In reality though, this is positive PR to try to encourage people not to give up on the vaccine, despite all the negative news. There have been so few second doses of this vaccine given world wide and this brain clotting is a very rare side effect, there is just absolutely not enough data available for someone to make the definitive claim that if you were fine with the first shot, you'll be fine with the second.

    They are still not even able to 100% confirm a link between the vaccine and the blood clots, never mind them knowing that it targets a specific genetic makeup. They are honestly completely in uncharted waters and the AZ vaccine continues to be used purely out of the necessity of our supply chains being limited.


  • #5570
    Zipppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭Zipppy


    Anyone any ideas what happens to those under 60s who were due AZ vax this week?


  • #5571
    rm212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭rm212


    robinph wrote: »
    Yeah, after this year there shouldn't really be any need for half the population to get vaccinated repeatedly for it. At the moment it's still about getting the cases so low that we can open things up again without overwhelming health systems and also so that we can handle influxes of people from other countries.

    Once this has passed it will just be those who normally get the flu jab, possibly extending the range who are offered it a bit more than previously. Then within a couple of years it will be a combination flu/ covid jab. We'll then find the level of cases which society is able to accept, and get on with life.

    I really, really hope it works out as nice and rosy as that, that would be amazing. I've been fearing it might not be so simple...


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  • #5572
    funnydoggy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭funnydoggy


    Zipppy wrote: »
    Anyone any ideas what happens to those under 60s who were due AZ vax this week?

    Today's ones are cancelled, but the hse will advise from here. It's so frustrating being in the dark like this.


  • #5573
    deeperlearning
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 269 ✭✭deeperlearning


    In the UK, the bulk of their vaccines are AZ and they cannot afford to stop using the AZ vaccine as they are completely dependent on it for their vaccine programme. Hence, it is used on everyone over 30.

    In Ireland, it is just over 20% of our supplies but we still need it for now. Hence, it is only used for 60-69 year-olds and this group will use up to 800,000+ doses which will be supplied in Q2. In July, we won't need AZ as there are plenty of other vaccines coming on stream.

    In the US, there is now a plentiful supply of vaccine. The US won't use AZ on anyone.


  • #5574
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,754 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    deeperlearning wrote: »
    In the UK, the bulk of their vaccines are AZ and they cannot afford to stop using the AZ vaccine as they are completely dependent on it for their vaccine programme. Hence, it is used on everyone over 30.

    In Ireland, it is just over 20% of our supplies but we still need it for now. Hence, it is only used for 60-69 year-olds and this group will use up to 800,000+ doses which will be supplied in Q2. In July, we won't need AZ as there are plenty of other vaccines coming on stream.

    In the US, there is now a plentiful supply of vaccine. The US won't use AZ on anyone.

    And yet people are acting as if the sky is falling in.


  • #5575
    Cazale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭Cazale


    Sister in law got her first AZ vaccine in late February. Travelled in a car for 30 minutes with a work colleague at weekend who wasn't vaccinated and ended up getting covid from her. Danger of letting the guard down thinking one vaccination is enough.


  • #5576
    dogbert27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,905 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    Cazale wrote: »
    Sister in law got her first AZ vaccine in late February. Travelled in a car for 30 minutes with a work colleague at weekend who wasn't vaccinated and ended up getting covid from her. Danger of letting the guard down thinking one vaccination is enough.

    Even with 2 doses of vaccine it still does not stop you from getting Covid. It just means the symptoms are significantly reduced.


  • #5577
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    deeperlearning wrote: »
    In Ireland, it is just over 20% of our supplies but we still need it for now. Hence, it is only used for 60-69 year-olds and this group will use up to 800,000+ doses which will be supplied in Q2. In July, we won't need AZ as there are plenty of other vaccines coming on stream.

    What are you basing those predictions on?


  • #5578
    josip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,059 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Bambi wrote: »
    What are you basing those predictions on?

    Perhaps this ?

    https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1379770246194737157?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1379770370434158595%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fvbulletin%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D116815271

    I would expect July doses to be at least the same as June.
    Pfizer will (reliable) deliver more doses in June than AZ hope (unreliable) to, in all of Q2.
    Pfizer July doses alone, would clear any AZ-related Q2 deficit.


  • #5579
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,432 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    deeperlearning wrote: »
    In the UK, the bulk of their vaccines are AZ and they cannot afford to stop using the AZ vaccine as they are completely dependent on it for their vaccine programme. Hence, it is used on everyone over 30.
    In Ireland, it is just over 20% of our supplies but we still need it for now. Hence, it is only used for 60-69 year-olds and this group will use up to 800,000+ doses which will be supplied in Q2. In July, we won't need AZ as there are plenty of other vaccines coming on stream.
    In the US, there is now a plentiful supply of vaccine. The US won't use AZ on anyone.

    Jansen is a similar profile virus to AZ, it would not surprise me if it faces similar issues as AZ with clots.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #5580
    weisses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,821 ✭✭✭weisses


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Jansen is a similar profile virus to AZ, it would not surprise me if it faces similar issues as AZ with clots.

    Being looked into

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/09/eu-agency-examines-reports-of-blood-clots-with-jj-covid-vaccine


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  • #5581
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    deeperlearning wrote: »
    In the UK, the bulk of their vaccines are AZ and they cannot afford to stop using the AZ vaccine as they are completely dependent on it for their vaccine programme. Hence, it is used on everyone over 30.

    In Ireland, it is just over 20% of our supplies but we still need it for now. Hence, it is only used for 60-69 year-olds and this group will use up to 800,000+ doses which will be supplied in Q2. In July, we won't need AZ as there are plenty of other vaccines coming on stream.

    In the US, there is now a plentiful supply of vaccine. The US won't use AZ on anyone.

    Currently, yes, the main UK supplier is Astra Zeneca. Pfizer is only the 6th biggest order which the UK has placed though, and they have only received half of it so far. They have the vast majority of vulnerable groups vaccinated, and hundreds of millions of other vaccines on order which will arrive just as soon as anywhere else gets them. Whilst the UK rate of vaccination is slowing down from last month, I don't see any disaster looming there.


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