What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

KrustyUCC

josip wrote: »

J&J delivered 20m doses in the US in March.
And there have been 4 clot cases incl 1 death reported.
How does that stack up against AZ?

In UK Over 20 million doses of the AZ vaccine have been given in the UK so far. According to the MHRA, the risk of a serious blood clot as a result of the jab is approximately one in 250,000 people vaccinated, or four in a million.

Must find the EU figures

drunkmonkey

astrofool wrote: »

As far as I know the trial is with a different dosing and/or to see if the efficacy goes up significantly with a second jab, the one dose schedule was the primary trial being run (just as Moderna and Pfizer are running additional trials for boosters and children and also tracking data from Israel closely to see if there is any guidance they should change).

re: clotting cases, it will depend on the age groups being vaccinated as to whether it's an issue or not.

How are they allowed test these vaccines on healthy children it's always something that's confused me. What county are these children from?

PaulJoseph22

astrofool wrote: »

I'd say, if in doubt, go anyway, at worst you won't get vaccinated. If the follow up appointment was 12+ weeks away, it's AZ, if it's 3-4 weeks away, it's mRNA.

It doesn’t state on the letter or text about follow up appointment.

KrustyUCC

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Isn't their hand going to be forced we can't exactly go Gung ho considering all the leaking news about it.
It's main selling point is it's a one jab shot but the second jab is in phase 3.

From what i was hearing on the radio earlier J&J same type of vaccine as AZ so speculation was that worries about same issues

If we had to remove J&J as well as AZ thats 35% of our Q2 vaccineslimited to 60-69 year olds

I'd hate to see J&J fail similarly to AZ as we need the 605,000 into people below 60

rm212

I’m 25. I’ve had one dose of AZ and had really bad side effects at first. Those subsided then and I was fine. Two weeks exactly after the first dose I started getting severe chest pain, shortness of breath, a feeling that my lungs couldn’t full expect, stomach pains - all the symptoms they said to look out for with the serious AZ side effects. I went to A&E yesterday and they checked everything out and thankfully gave me the all clear, they just put it down to my anxiety, but I was bloody terrified.

After all of this, I’m not sure if I want to get the second. Not just because of the blood clotting risk, but every passing day it seems like it gets revised down to be less effective and more bad news comes out about it.

Also, when it comes to booster shots for new variants, mRNA is built perfectly to adapt to this. But the viral vector technology might not be so easy, it might take a long time and a completely different setup to get that working for AZ and J&J. The question then is.. if you’ve been vaccinated with AZ as your base vaccine and then have to later get some Pfizer booster for a new variant, will that be less effective than if you got a Pfizer base vaccine? Who knows really, but all I can say is... personally, I don’t trust this vaccine very much anymore and I don’t think the technology is up to par with mRNA. I’m really sceptical about getting the second dose.

Each to their own though, I’m absolutely not saying that others shouldn’t get the AZ if they want it and are happy to take the risk. I just wish I didn’t get the first dose as I’d feel much more confident with Pfizer, and that’s what I’d be getting had I not received my AZ dose 1.

KrustyUCC

KrustyUCC wrote: »

From what i was hearing on the radio earlier J&J same type of vaccine as AZ so speculation was that worries about same issues

If we had to remove J&J as well as AZ thats 35% of our Q2 vaccineslimited to 60-69 year olds

I'd hate to see J&J fail similarly to AZ as we need the 605,000 into people below 60

Can people not sign a waiver?

Its an emergency situation.

Government acting like there is zero chance of covid?

Maybe a handful of deaths due to blood clotting based on extrapolation, but a return to normality.

Nobody would really care if less than 5 blood clotting deaths brought this crisis over by the summer.

Too cautious.

Hopefully it can be reversed or amended in time.

astrofool

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How are they allowed test these vaccines on healthy children it's always something that's confused me. What county are these children from?

They're part of a trial of volunteers, they also bring it down age group by age group, so Pfizer's trials were ran on 16+, the next set of trials were at 12-16, then they'll move onto something like 6-12 validating safety all the way through (I'm guessing they start with reduced doses at first to test for allergies or bad reactions before figuring out the optimum dosage for efficacy and doing larger trials).

drunkmonkey

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I'd hate to see J&J fail similarly to AZ as we need the 605,000 into people below 60

Do we though, Leo didn't seem to think so, herd immunity is a few years off, once the at risk and soon to be at risk are vaccinated doesn't that fix the overwhelming the hospitals problem so restrictions can finish.

stephenjmcd

rm212 wrote: »

I’m 25. I’ve had one dose of AZ and had really bad side effects at first. Those subsided then and I was fine. Two weeks exactly after the first dose I started getting severe chest pain, shortness of breath, a feeling that my lungs couldn’t full expect, stomach pains - all the symptoms they said to look out for with the serious AZ side effects. I went to A&E yesterday and they checked everything out and thankfully gave me the all clear, they just put it down to my anxiety, but I was bloody terrified.

After all of this, I’m not sure if I want to get the second. Not just because of the blood clotting risk, but every passing day it seems like it gets revised down to be less effective and more bad news comes out about it.

Also, when it comes to booster shots for new variants, mRNA is built perfectly to adapt to this. But the viral vector technology might not be so easy, it might take a long time and a completely different setup to get that working for AZ and J&J. The question then is.. if you’ve been vaccinated with AZ as your base vaccine and then have to later get some Pfizer booster for a new variant, will that be less effective than if you got a Pfizer base vaccine? Who knows really, but all I can say is... personally, I don’t trust this vaccine very much anymore and I don’t think the technology is up to par with mRNA. I’m really sceptical about getting the second dose.

Each to their own though, I’m absolutely not saying that others shouldn’t get the AZ if they want it and are happy to take the risk. I just wish I didn’t get the first dose as I’d feel much more confident with Pfizer, and that’s what I’d be getting had I not received my AZ dose 1.

In your case honestly follow the dosing schedule. You've not experienced anything that wasn't expected in terms of side effects. If you've been given it now aged 25 then your at higher risk than most people. Would only make sense to get the 2nd dose when your called for it. Also its not a less effective vaccine, it prevents serious illness and death.

With regards to getting mRNA as the 2nd dose, it's only in trials really. It's not recommended by regulators, honest I'd rather get 2 doses of AZ than be a guinea pig for mixing of vaccines which I don't see happening here anytime soon

Happydays2020

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Not many.

0.

They are making it up as they go.

drunkmonkey

astrofool wrote: »

They're part of a trial of volunteers, they also bring it down age group by age group, so Pfizer's trials were ran on 16+, the next set of trials were at 12-16, then they'll move onto something like 6-12 validating safety all the way through (I'm guessing they start with reduced doses at first to test for allergies or bad reactions before figuring out the optimum dosage for efficacy and doing larger trials).

They're testing in 6mt+ how can they volunteer, I'd even say the same for 6 to 12yr olds, who's volunteering these kids and from where. I'm not sure that's legal in Europe at least.

rm212

stephenjmcd wrote: »

In your case honestly follow the dosing schedule. You've not experienced anything that was expected in terms of side effects. If you've been given it now aged 25 then your at higher risk than most people. Would only make sense to get the 2nd dose when your called for it.

With regards to getting mRNA as the 2nd dose, it's only in trials really. It's not recommended by regulators, honest I'd rather get 2 doses of AZ than be a guinea pig for mixing of vaccines which I don't see happening here anytime soon

Oh sorry for being a bit unclear with my first post, I didn’t mean that I want like, one dose of mRNA as a second dose, that’s not what I meant. I meant I’d prefer to get a full course ie. 2 doses of mRNA, to get full protection via that vaccine (obviously this is a hypothetical in an ideal world where vaccines are freely available). The AZ vaccine would be well out of my system by the time I’d be getting the first mRNA dose in this hypothetical scenario and there’s no risk with taking another vaccine, vaccines are mixed all the time (like the flu vaccine actually has many different flu variants each year, and children are given 3 in 1, 5 in 1 etc), they’ve done a lot of studies on whether multiple different vaccines can be dangerous.

But I haven’t made a decision on what to do yet... I don’t know... I really don’t even feel like AZ is going to be effective over the long term any more. It seems crap against the variants too. But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me, thank you. It’s something I will be very, very carefully considering and weighing up in my head.

KrustyUCC

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Do we though, Leo didn't seem to think so, herd immunity is a few years off, once the at risk and soon to be at risk are vaccinated doesn't that fix the overwhelming the hospitals problem so restrictions can finish.

Vaccines are our way out

Only once a sufficient amount of people are vaccinated will major easing of restrictions happen

Any easing of restrictions is linked to the progress of the vaccination program

That 80% of adults having one dose by end of June is key to having any hope of staycations or hospitality open in the country

drunkmonkey

rm212 wrote: »

I’m 25. .

Did you have to sign anything or were given anything to agree with before getting it.

Basically informed consent.

rm212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Did you have to sign anything or were given anything to agree with before getting it.

Basically informed consent.

Nope, nothing. They just handed me some leaflets and said to watch for any rare side effects.

stephenjmcd

rm212 wrote: »

Oh sorry for being a bit unclear with my first post, I didn’t mean that I want like, one dose of mRNA as a second dose, that’s not what I meant. I meant I’d prefer to get a full course ie. 2 doses of mRNA, to get full protection via that vaccine (obviously this is a hypothetical in an ideal world where vaccines are freely available). The AZ vaccine would be well out of my system by the time I’d be getting the first mRNA dose in this hypothetical scenario and there’s no risk with taking another vaccine, vaccines are mixed all the time (like the flu vaccine actually has many different flu variants each year, and children are given 3 in 1, 5 in 1 etc), they’ve done a lot of studies on whether multiple different vaccines can be dangerous.

But I haven’t made a decision on what to do yet... I don’t know... I really don’t even feel like AZ is going to be effective over the long term any more. It seems crap against the variants too. But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me, thank you. It’s something I will be very, very carefully considering and weighing up in my head.

Best advice is to not make up your mind from reading posts on here or things in the media to be honest, there's some highly sensational things in both. Have a chat with your GP or consultant whichever may be the case. They'll be able to hopefully put you at a bit more ease

drunkmonkey

KrustyUCC wrote: »

That 80% of adults having one dose by end of June is key to having any hope of staycations or hospitality open in the country

Here's the problem 80% of the adults is no use we've a young population, it's been stated we need 80% of the population vaccinated for herd immunity that includes from baby's up.

I can't see it happening without making it mandatory and I can't see an emergency use vaccine being made madatory for people at no risk of the disease.

PaulJoseph22

What a farce this vaccination drive is turning out to be, no notice, no planning, nothing.

drunkmonkey

rm212 wrote: »

Nope, nothing. They just handed me some leaflets and said to watch for any rare side effects.

No warning on the leaflets?

Halfdane

rm212 wrote: »

Oh sorry for being a bit unclear with my first post, I didn’t mean that I want like, one dose of mRNA as a second dose, that’s not what I meant. I meant I’d prefer to get a full course ie. 2 doses of mRNA, to get full protection via that vaccine (obviously this is a hypothetical in an ideal world where vaccines are freely available). The AZ vaccine would be well out of my system by the time I’d be getting the first mRNA dose in this hypothetical scenario and there’s no risk with taking another vaccine, vaccines are mixed all the time (like the flu vaccine actually has many different flu variants each year, and children are given 3 in 1, 5 in 1 etc), they’ve done a lot of studies on whether multiple different vaccines can be dangerous.

But I haven’t made a decision on what to do yet... I don’t know... I really don’t even feel like AZ is going to be effective over the long term any more. It seems crap against the variants too. But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me, thank you. It’s something I will be very, very carefully considering and weighing up in my head.

I’m in a similar boat now having gotten the first dose of AZ three weeks ago (I’m 26). Today’s news worried me about the effectiveness of this vaccine in the long run, particularly given the new 16 week wait time. There’s no studies about this yet, so how are we to know what the efficacy of the vaccine will be with an extra month added on between doses? I hope they use data to re-evaluate their decision before it comes to my 12 week mark, as I’ll have doubts otherwise.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No warning on the leaflets?

I got the leaflet and an extra print out describing the re-instating of AZ in Ireland and side effects of blood clots to look out for.

rm212

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Best advice is to not make up your mind from reading posts on here or things in the media to be honest. Have a chat with your GP or consultant whichever may be the case. They'll be able to hopefully put you at a bit more ease

Yeah I get that, and I might do that and have a chat with them about it, but honestly it’s mostly from reading scientific studies that I’m getting swayed - that combined of course with the fact they’ve said they’re not going to use it for people in my circumstances anymore, unless you’ve already had dose 1. I really don’t want this to come off as entitled at all, I totally understand lots of people would love to get the AZ right now, I’m just afraid after my A&E experience and the fact the all of the rare blood clotting warning signs are things I experience every other day with my chronic anxiety disorder.. so I can’t tell for sure what’s causing them.

Halfdane

rm212 wrote: »

Yeah I get that, and I might do that and have a chat with them about it, but honestly it’s mostly from reading scientific studies that I’m getting swayed - that combined of course with the fact they’ve said they’re not going to use it for people in my circumstances anymore, unless you’ve already had dose 1. I really don’t want this to come off as entitled at all, I totally understand lots of people would love to get the AZ right now, I’m just afraid after my A&E experience and the fact the all of the rare blood clotting warning signs are things I experience every other day with my chronic anxiety disorder.. so I can’t tell for sure what’s causing them.

If it’s any consolation, I believe that there haven’t been any cases of blood clotting after the second dose, only the first. Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong anyone.

rm212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No warning on the leaflets?

It said that there have been reports of rare blood clotting events that are not confirmed to be linked to the vaccine, and then a list of symptoms to watch out for, just in case.

rm212

Halfdane wrote: »

If it’s any consolation, I believe that there haven’t been any cases of blood clotting after the second dose, only the first. Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong anyone.

That’s true I think, but so so few second doses have been given due to the 12 week gap, so it’s not really indicative of anything.

astrofool

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They're testing in 6mt+ how can they volunteer, I'd even say the same for 6 to 12yr olds, who's volunteering these kids and from where. I'm not sure that's legal in Europe at least.

Here's some information on how it's done in Ireland:
https://www.nationalchildrensresearchcentre.ie/childrens-clinical-research-unit/taking-part-in-clinical-trials/

But, how did you think any medicine for children was ever approved?

Halfdane

rm212 wrote: »

That’s true I think, but so so few second doses have been given due to the 12 week gap, so it’s not really indicative of anything.

That is a good point.

namloc1980

Remember when the main issues with AstraZeneca was the questionable trial data and the spat over supply problems with the EU.....good times.

rm212

Halfdane wrote: »

That is a good point.

That’s presumably why they said to wait 16 weeks if you’re under 60 and got it but DON’T have a medical condition. They’re waiting on more data as to whether the second dose can be dangerous.

For people like me with a condition though, they’re going ahead with 12 weeks it seems.

brendanwalsh

rm212 wrote: »

Oh sorry for being a bit unclear with my first post, I didn’t mean that I want like, one dose of mRNA as a second dose, that’s not what I meant. I meant I’d prefer to get a full course ie. 2 doses of mRNA, to get full protection via that vaccine (obviously this is a hypothetical in an ideal world where vaccines are freely available). The AZ vaccine would be well out of my system by the time I’d be getting the first mRNA dose in this hypothetical scenario and there’s no risk with taking another vaccine, vaccines are mixed all the time (like the flu vaccine actually has many different flu variants each year, and children are given 3 in 1, 5 in 1 etc), they’ve done a lot of studies on whether multiple different vaccines can be dangerous.

But I haven’t made a decision on what to do yet... I don’t know... I really don’t even feel like AZ is going to be effective over the long term any more. It seems crap against the variants too. But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me, thank you. It’s something I will be very, very carefully considering and weighing up in my head.

France and Germany mixing vaccines.

You’ll be fine.

You got some protection from your first shot, avoid the second one due to risk of brain clot and when Pfizer is more available you can get that into you.

josip

astrofool wrote: »

Here's some information on how it's done in Ireland:
https://www.nationalchildrensresearchcentre.ie/childrens-clinical-research-unit/taking-part-in-clinical-trials/

But, how did you think any medicine for children was ever approved?

Yeah, they're not shy about asking parents to sign up their kids for any studies they've got ongoing.
6 hours after our son was born prematurely (27+4), a doctor spent 30 minutes with us going through their list of studies, outlining what they hoped to discover and asking us to sign him up for each one.
Many of them required taking additional blood.