Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X Read OP For Mod Warnings

arccosh · 09-04-2021 12:44PM

thebaz wrote: »

by Yesterday we had vaccinated a million people , surly the vulverable have been vaccinated by now, even allowing for the time for immunity to kick in.

million doses

depending on the vaccine, people may need 2 doses.

so not a million people

edit: number seems to be around the 750,000 mark of people with at least 1 dose

Penfailed · 09-04-2021 12:45PM

Boggles wrote: »

I have no problem admitting I am wrong Penfailed.

But the reality is the majority of construction workers are working.

According to Tom Parlon, 50% of the biggest sites are currently open, which employs the largest amount of workers, add in the fact that not all construction workers are strictly site workers.

Also Tom admitted when asked, that yes he is aware many workers on PUP who are currently working.

Approx 150,000 construction workers in the state.

So my opinion is based on what Tom Parlon has said and what the figures from the relevant departments have published.

So by every single metric and I won't even mention the anecdotal ones, the majority of construction workers are working.

Now the poster you are referring to is aware of this because I have posted it in more detail before, I have determined he is a bad faith poster and will no longer be engaging.

Why did it take so long to respond to the query? If those are the facts and you had them to hand, why wait until you were asked numerous times before responding? That's posting in bad faith.

Klonker · 09-04-2021 12:45PM

Boggles wrote: »

So by every single metric and I won't even mention the anecdotal ones, the [majority of construction workers are working.

It doesn't matter if the majority are working. Absolutely every one of them should be working. We are the only country in Europe with any construction closed and yet we have amoung the lowest rates of infection. How in any way does that make sense when we have a huge housing shortage?

You'll probably respond with 'do you not think there's a correlation between the low rates and construction being closed?` and my answer will be no, I think there's no correlation.

All construction should be back from this Monday, as should golf and tennis and outdoor meeting with another household as well as training groups. None of these things will change the rate on infection here in any meaningful way and would have a huge effect on peoples wellbeing.

GT89 · 09-04-2021 12:45PM

arccosh wrote: »

I have a few mates in construction who never stopped working, even during the strict lockdowns...

Good on them their clearly not bothered by the bs spewed by the government and are trying to earn an honest days living. I hope for their own sake there aren't stasi neighbours trying to report them for trying to earn a living.

If their also on the pup I would say good on them for that also I wouldn't usually support people cheating the system but in this instance the government has cheated everyone in the entire country for the last year. So if they are they are only getting one back on the government.

Stormyteacup · 09-04-2021 12:47PM

Good article on MHQ in IT today.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/mandatory-hotel-quarantine-is-controversial-for-good-reason-1.4532279?mode=amp

Apologies as usual if behind paywall but it’s a good piece.

‘I believe Ministers were simply browbeaten into implementing travel quarantine to assuage an angry and frightened public who were whipped into further frenzy by activist scientists allied with the Government’s political opposition. The public was tricked into believing that quarantine would somehow lead to a loosening of our current exhausting lockdown. They swallowed it whole.

But it was always pure nonsense. Our lockdown came about as a result of domestic transmission that we inflicted upon ourselves. Locking up people in airport hotels will not prevent Irish people mixing in each other’s houses. Nor prevent it spreading in facilities such as meat plants.’

Sums up how ridiculous MHQ is at this point and even if it was implemented as a political move to assuage a panicky public, it’s still baffling that NPHET continue to recommend it.

Penfailed · 09-04-2021 12:47PM

Klonker wrote: »

It doesn't matter if the majority are working. Absolutely every one of them should be working. We are the only country in Europe with any construction closed and yet we have amoung the lowest rates of infection. How in any way does that make sense when we have a huge housing shortage?

You'll probably respond with 'do you not think there's a correlation between the low rates and construction being closed?` and my answer will be no, I think there's no correlation.

All construction should be back from this Monday, as should golf and tennis and outdoor meeting with another household as well as training groups. None of these things will change the rate on infection here in any meaningful way and would have a huge effect on peoples wellbeing.

You are making a completely different point to the one Boggles was making...

Boggles · 09-04-2021 12:48PM

Klonker wrote: »

It doesn't matter if the majority are working

In the context of the conversation where the narrative been pushed is the whole sector is shut down.

Then yes it is pertinent, wouldn't you agree?

As for the sites that are currently closed, yes it's time for the workers to go back working for the minted property developers.

09-04-2021 12:49PM

"There might be restrictions on construction but I anecdotally know that the majority of people are breaking them so it's grand and also the restrictions are absolutely necessary" is the weirdest take.

arccosh · 09-04-2021 12:53PM

GT89 wrote: »

Good on them their clearly not bothered by bs spewed by the government and are trying to earn an honest days living. I hope for their own there aren't stasi neighbours trying to report them for trying to earn a living.

If their also the pup I would say good on them for that also I wouldn't usually support people cheating the system but in this instance the government has cheated everyone in the entire country for the last year. So if they are they are only getting one back on the government.

the point was that not all construction was/still is closed, as people are liking to make out

W123-80's · 09-04-2021 12:55PM

lawred2 wrote: »

"variants can overcome vaccines"

Is that a valid challenge to anything given what is known right now?

In your opinion!

Of course it is.

Variants will constantly be monitored, it would be wreckless, irresponsible and incredibly arrogant not to monitor them.

Bad news relating to Variants;

https://theconversation.com/new-covid-variants-have-changed-the-game-and-vaccines-will-not-be-enough-we-need-global-maximum-suppression-157870

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/09/coronavirus-covid-live-updates-us/

Good news relating to Variants;

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-04-07/covid-19-vaccines-work-well-against-california-variant

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/30/covid-variants-t-cells-in-blood-samples-of-recovered-covid-patients-recognize-strains.html

Leaving Variants out of any discussion on Covid19 vaccines & opening up would be silly.

09-04-2021 12:55PM

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Good article on MHQ in IT today.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/mandatory-hotel-quarantine-is-controversial-for-good-reason-1.4532279?mode=amp

Apologies as usual if behind paywall but it’s a good piece.

‘I believe Ministers were simply browbeaten into implementing travel quarantine to assuage an angry and frightened public who were whipped into further frenzy by activist scientists allied with the Government’s political opposition. The public was tricked into believing that quarantine would somehow lead to a loosening of our current exhausting lockdown. They swallowed it whole.

But it was always pure nonsense. Our lockdown came about as a result of domestic transmission that we inflicted upon ourselves. Locking up people in airport hotels will not prevent Irish people mixing in each other’s houses. Nor prevent it spreading in facilities such as meat plants.’

Sums up how ridiculous MHQ is at this point and even if it was implemented as a political move to assuage a panicky public, it’s still baffling that NPHET continue to recommend it.

I was listening to Lord Sumption on the Spiked podcast this week and he makes a similar point. Governments acted outside of existing pandemic planning a decade in the making because the public, frightened by videos out of China of people keeling over in the street and body bags piling up and mass graves being dug (for chickens, but whatever), and from Italy of full ICU wards and Italian people singing their haunting songs out the window in abandoned streets, tripped into "something must be done" mode and thus something was done.

It's an interesting listen if you have some busy work or driving to do for an hour. https://youtu.be/b5-GakxDVvc

Faugheen · 09-04-2021 12:57PM

thebaz wrote: »

I stated we flatennd curve , we have vaccinated the vulnerable , we have had nearly 6 months of lockdown , I stated people are suffering from over anxiety and depression . and fed up. NPHET and the HSE are both under Department of Health .

Let's look at your 'statements':

"NPHET are ruling the country with caution and fear." - False.

"The vulnerable are vaccinated" - False

"Do they care about other issues?" - not their job

"It is NPHETS responsibility to care for the overall holistic health of Ireland too." - False

"The vulnerable are vaccinated." - False, again

"Should we not be looking at easing restrictions?" - Not NPHET's decision to make.

"Well I would have assumed (and hoped) they would work with HSE in ensuring what is best for overall health of country, along with ther mandate to control COVID." - one would assume, and they would be wrong. NPHET is for responding to medical emergencies. Like the National Emergency Co-ordination Group is tasked with responding to highly dangerous weather events and how to keep people safe.

"Insinuating anyone that does not agree with you or NPHET are stupid." - I said had no clue about what NPHET's role was. I said you wanted to move the goalposts for any reason to point the finger at them instead of the gutless politicians who want to take credit for the good news and hide behind NPHET and blame them for the bad news.

So no, you didn't just state what you claimed above. You made numerous false claims in a bid to further your own agenda and you were found out to know nothing about what NPHET's purpose is.

Yet I am the 'nasty' one for calling it out. Don't gaslight me.

Silentcorner · 09-04-2021 12:57PM

arccosh wrote: »

I think October 2020 and the numerous stats from Southern hemisphere countries over the last few months (which were in summer btw) have something to say about your bull****

We do not need to look at other countries especially one's at the other side of the planet....viral infections will behave differently in different parts of the world, climate, population, population density, the health of the population are all factors that differ from place to place.

We have 12 months of data from this country.

What the data is telling us is crystal clear.

The cases rose in Oct, they will again this Oct, they will then surge twice between Oct - March...like the flu does every year....it is those surges where the virus case numbers shoot up in the space of a week or two that put's pressure on the health system.

Boggles · 09-04-2021 12:59PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

We do not need to look at other countries especially one's at the other side of the planet....viral infections will behave differently in different parts of the world, climate, population, population density, the health of the population are all factors that differ from place to place.

We have 12 months of data from this country.

What the data is telling us is crystal clear.

The cases rose in Oct, they will again this Oct, they will then surge twice between Oct - March...like the flu does every year....it is those surges where the virus case numbers shoot up in the space of a week or two that put's pressure on the health system.

Have France a different peak flu season?

Silentcorner · 09-04-2021 01:02PM

Boggles wrote: »

Have France a different peak flu season?

What do I know...why would I care I live here...

I'd imagine viral infections spread a little differently through a population of 5 million and a population of 55 million....

aidoh · 09-04-2021 01:03PM

I'm interested to hear peoples' thoughts on what restrictions, if any, will be relaxed come May 4th.

- will it still be illegal for me to get my mop chopped?

- will I be able to sit outside a restaurant?

- will I be able to book a hotel room / Air BnB etc.?

- will I be able to go into a "non-essential" shop or will we see a return to click and collect (hated that last summer).

It feels eactly like last year to me. I'm not expecting much at all this summer beyond meeting people for a picnic / coffee / few beers in the local park. Probably be "allowed" rent a cottage for a staycation somewhere in August.

Please God let us have some good weather at least!

Boggles · 09-04-2021 01:03PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

What do I know...why would I care I live here...

I'd imagine viral infections spread a little differently through a population of 5 million and a population of 55 million....

So the virus is only seasonal in Ireland?

What are the chances?

We lucked on that one.

Silentcorner · 09-04-2021 01:08PM

Boggles wrote: »

So the virus is only seasonal in Ireland?

What are the chances?

We lucked on that one.

Ha ha haaaa...

Flu season will vary from place to place...the New York flu season is a lot different to the Florida flu season....the French flu season will be different to the Irish flu season...time of year, population and population density, the health of that population differ from place to place it is that simple Boggles....it is just science.

uli84 · 09-04-2021 01:14PM

Click & collect from May? They must be kidding, a lot of shops (Penneys, TK maxx) not doing it, that means they’ll be closed for half a year, madness. I do hope Northern Ireland will be faster, Newry here I come

titan18 · 09-04-2021 01:14PM

aidoh wrote: »

I'm interested to hear peoples' thoughts on what restrictions, if any, will be relaxed come May 4th.

- will it still be illegal for me to get my mop chopped?

- will I be able to sit outside a restaurant?

- will I be able to book a hotel room / Air BnB etc.?

- will I be able to go into a "non-essential" shop or will we see a return to click and collect (hated that last summer).

It feels eactly like last year to me. I'm not expecting much at all this summer beyond meeting people for a picnic / coffee / few beers in the local park. Probably be "allowed" rent a cottage for a staycation somewhere in August.

Please God let us have some good weather at least!

I'll go

- will it still be illegal for me to get my mop chopped? Yup, still illegal

- will I be able to sit outside a restaurant? You can sit outside one now, just no food will be served so I'd imagine this will be the same

- will I be able to book a hotel room / Air BnB etc.? Book one for 2022

- will I be able to go into a "non-essential" shop or will we see a return to click and collect (hated that last summer). Click and collect at best

thebaz · 09-04-2021 01:19PM

Faugheen wrote: »

Let's look at your 'statements':

"NPHET are ruling the country with caution and fear." - False.

"The vulnerable are vaccinated" - False

"Do they care about other issues?" - not their job

"It is NPHETS responsibility to care for the overall holistic health of Ireland too." - False

"The vulnerable are vaccinated." - False, again

"Should we not be looking at easing restrictions?" - Not NPHET's decision to make.

"Well I would have assumed (and hoped) they would work with HSE in ensuring what is best for overall health of country, along with ther mandate to control COVID." - one would assume, and they would be wrong. NPHET is for responding to medical emergencies. Like the National Emergency Co-ordination Group is tasked with responding to highly dangerous weather events and how to keep people safe.

"Insinuating anyone that does not agree with you or NPHET are stupid." - I said had no clue about what NPHET's role was. I said you wanted to move the goalposts for any reason to point the finger at them instead of the gutless politicians who want to take credit for the good news and hide behind NPHET and blame them for the bad news.

So no, you didn't just state what you claimed above. You made numerous false claims in a bid to further your own agenda and you were found out to know nothing about what NPHET's purpose is.

Yet I am the 'nasty' one for calling it out. Don't gaslight me.

its you tone that I took issue with - referencing moronic etc - differ with me by all means , you are obvoiusly happy with how NPHET are controlling things, I'm not I think they are way too cautious, and not taking a holistic overall approach.
We have 700,000 to 1 million vaccinated I would certainly hope the vulnerable are incuded in that number.

hynesie08 · 09-04-2021 01:30PM

uli84 wrote: »

Click & collect from May? They must be kidding, a lot of shops not doing it, that means they’ll be closed for half a year, madness. I do hope Northern Ireland will be faster, Newry here I come

A lot of shops will start doing it when it's the only way to get cash in the tills......

Boggles · 09-04-2021 01:35PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Ha ha haaaa...

Flu season will vary from place to place...the New York flu season is a lot different to the Florida flu season....the French flu season will be different to the Irish flu season...time of year, population and population density, the health of that population differ from place to place it is that simple Boggles....it is just science.

Would it much different?

We will forgot about Ireland so and all other countries and I'll ask the question again.

When is peak flu season in France?

For you to be correct it must be at least April or in reality April / May?

Currently nearly 6,000 people in ICU with Covid 9th of April.

M_Murphy57 · 09-04-2021 01:35PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

A lot of shops will start doing it when it's the only way to get cash in the tills......

Still no sign of shoe shops open "by appointment"

Cant open under a system you dont have , especially if it involves implementing an IT system because Donnelly insists on adding a layer of stupid onto every decision he makes

Faugheen · 09-04-2021 01:35PM

thebaz wrote: »

its you tone that I took issue with - referencing moronic etc - differ with me by all means , you are obvoiusly happy with how NPHET are controlling things, I'm not I think they are way too cautious, and not taking a holistic overall approach.
We have 700,000 to 1 million vaccinated I would certainly hope the vulnerable are incuded in that number.

I'm not happy being in this situation at all.

However, I listen to the doctors and people who actually know what they're talking about. I watch the briefings and I actually listen to the reasoning behind everything they say and it all makes sense to me. No media report or transcript will be able to give you a clear picture. That's not necessarily NPHET's fault, but Philip Nolan's modelling in particular is very complex and you can only get a true sense of what he is saying and why he is saying it when you actually listen to him.

Papers saying the situation is 'volatile' with little to no context doesn't help anyone. That's why I always tell people to watch the briefings from start to finish. The media have been a disgrace throughout this and are only desperate to start a row between government and NPHET.

As Ronan Glynn said last night, their job is to be cautious. It's the responsibility of government to consider all the other factors at play.

Government does not have to apply all of the advice if it doesn't want to. In fact, they have form in this. So to point the finger at NPHET when they're a bunch of civil servants with a very clear role, who the government are throwing under the bus, will always be called out by me.

Silentcorner · 09-04-2021 01:42PM

Boggles wrote: »

Would it much different?

We will forgot about Ireland so and all other countries and I'll ask the question again.

When is peak flu season in France?

For you to be correct it must be at least April or in reality April / May?

Currently nearly 6,000 people in ICU with Covid 9th of April.

Why would we forget about Ireland when it is only Irish data that matters here....

We are dealing with population here....we have 5 million people, France have 55 million people...a viral infection surge will behave differently in the two countries...if there are differences in climate in different parts of France that will have a further impact...

We have 12 months of data here...what the data is telling us is crystal clear...no need to look at anywhere else...the only difference now is the variant issue....which was an issue last year but nobody cared about variants until a few months ago.

niallo27 · 09-04-2021 01:49PM

Faugheen wrote: »

I'm not happy being in this situation at all.

However, I listen to the doctors and people who actually know what they're talking about. I watch the briefings and I actually listen to the reasoning behind everything they say and it all makes sense to me. No media report or transcript will be able to give you a clear picture. That's not necessarily NPHET's fault, but Philip Nolan's modelling in particular is very complex and you can only get a true sense of what he is saying and why he is saying it when you actually listen to him.

Papers saying the situation is 'volatile' with little to no context doesn't help anyone. That's why I always tell people to watch the briefings from start to finish. The media have been a disgrace throughout this and are only desperate to start a row between government and NPHET.

As Ronan Glynn said last night, their job is to be cautious. It's the responsibility of government to consider all the other factors at play.

Government does not have to apply all of the advice if it doesn't want to. In fact, they have form in this. So to point the finger at NPHET when they're a bunch of civil servants with a very clear role, who the government are throwing under the bus, will always be called out by me.

But the question is why are we one of the most cautious if not thee most cautious country in the world right now. The modelling is not very complex, they are just using worst case scenarios every time. So the question is why are we one of the most cautious countries in the world right now.

facehugger99 · 09-04-2021 01:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I was listening to Lord Sumption on the Spiked podcast this week and he makes a similar point. Governments acted outside of existing pandemic planning a decade in the making because the public, frightened by videos out of China of people keeling over in the street and body bags piling up and mass graves being dug (for chickens, but whatever), and from Italy of full ICU wards and Italian people singing their haunting songs out the window in abandoned streets, tripped into "something must be done" mode and thus something was done.

It's an interesting listen if you have some busy work or driving to do for an hour. https://youtu.be/b5-GakxDVvc

Reagan had it right 25 years ago, the nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help."

€50bn has been borrowed and spent to cover a couple of dozen senior politician's arses.

It is one of the greatest waste of resources presided over in the history of the State by political parties that are meant to represent the tax-paying contributors of this country.

FF and FG will never get a vote from me again.

suicide_circus · 09-04-2021 01:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I was listening to Lord Sumption on the Spiked podcast this week and he makes a similar point. Governments acted outside of existing pandemic planning a decade in the making because the public, frightened by videos out of China of people keeling over in the street and body bags piling up and mass graves being dug (for chickens, but whatever), and from Italy of full ICU wards and Italian people singing their haunting songs out the window in abandoned streets, tripped into "something must be done" mode and thus something was done.

It's an interesting listen if you have some busy work or driving to do for an hour. https://youtu.be/b5-GakxDVvc

It's a must listen.

The UK National Risk Register had anticipated a viral pandemic with a death toll far in excess of this one. Lockdowns and coercion of civilians played no part in their preparations. Instead they advocated cocooning the vulnerable. Other governments had similar forecasting and plans in place. All of this was thrown out the window as a cascade of panic went through world governments.

Boggles · 09-04-2021 01:52PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Why would we forget about Ireland when it is only Irish data that matters here....

We are dealing with population here....we have 5 million people, France have 55 million people...a viral infection surge will behave differently in the two countries...if there are differences in climate in different parts of France that will have a further impact...

What does it matter how many people they have France if you argument is this is seasonal?

I'm comparing France with France.

Silentcorner wrote: »

We have 12 months of data here...what the data is telling us is crystal clear...

Well no. You have completely abandoned the role played by restrictions.

So your musings are quite muddied TBF.

They are also not backed up by the current reality.

The virus is driven predominately by a number of factors, very simply how people behave and the amount of virus circulating, amongst others and soon to be more.

There is certainly a seasonality aspect of it, but nowhere near to the degree you are claiming.

You just have to take a courtesy look around Europe.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X Read OP For Mod Warnings