What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

ACitizenErased · 07-04-2021 09:00PM

appledrop wrote: »

SA are not giving out AZ because basicially its useless for them.

10% is not an effective vaccine.

Please don't reference the study that had a confidence interval between -40% and +60%........

Kivaro · 07-04-2021 09:01PM

appledrop wrote: »

SA are not giving out AZ because basicially its useless for them.

10% is not an effective vaccine.

Well, 205K doses of AZ has been issued to people in Ireland as of today. It must be more effective than you think.

stephenjmcd · 07-04-2021 09:01PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Anyone ever taken aspirin? Scary stuff.

I think if some people who are so against AZ because of a rare side effect ever read the possible side effects of every day medicine like aspirin, well then they might never take any medication ever again if they read the rare side effects of the most common ones.

The mind boggles.

Heres the rare side effects of paracetamol but sure nobody would second guess taking it in the morning.

- Decreased Blood Platelets
- Very Low Levels Of Granulocytes, A Type Of White Blood Cell
- Low Levels Of White Blood Cells
- Low Levels Of A Type Of White Blood Cell Called Neutrophils
- Vocal Cord Swelling
- Acute Liver Failure
- Damage To The Liver And Inflammation
- Inflammation Of The Skin Due To An Allergy
- A Skin Disorder With Blistering And Peeling Skin Called Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis

07-04-2021 09:03PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

What a ridiculous comparison. Bragging rights??

It's quite clearly a safety issue.

19 deaths in UK out of 28 million vaccines administered.

I like those odds.

Its not a headache tablet we are taking.

It basically stops covid in large part.

Most definitely stops a person from dying of covid and all other
benefits.

CruelSummer · 07-04-2021 09:06PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

I think if some people who are so against AZ because of a rare side effect ever read the possible side effects of every day medicine like aspirin, well then they might never take any medication ever again.

The mind boggles.

Heres the rare side effects of paracetamol but sure nobody would second guess taking it in the morning.

- Decreased Blood Platelets
- Very Low Levels Of Granulocytes, A Type Of White Blood Cell
- Low Levels Of White Blood Cells
- Low Levels Of A Type Of White Blood Cell Called Neutrophils
- Vocal Cord Swelling
- Acute Liver Failure
- Damage To The Liver And Inflammation
- Inflammation Of The Skin Due To An Allergy
- A Skin Disorder With Blistering And Peeling Skin Called Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis

Sorry but this is about a targeted risk group. There is a clear increased risk to women under 45. The odds keep reducing, first they say 1 in a million, now it’s down to a low as 1 in 30,000 or less in the particular at risk age group. This isn’t good enough. Young women not at risk of severe Covid, many of whom are mothers to young children are expected to accept these odds and the lottery that comes with it. Funny I don’t think this would even be suggested if men were the at risk group...but who knows.

Lazy Bhoy · 07-04-2021 09:08PM

hmmm wrote: »

I find your willingness to support a vaccine for which we have very little data, and dismissal of a vaccine which is being very closely scrutinised odd.

Would I take 'AN Other Russian' vaccine with very little safety scrutiny over Astra Zeneca which is being scrutinised in detail by multiple independent regulators? No of course not, why would anyone do that?

Would I take AZ if I was not in a vulnerable category and female under 30? I'd have to think about that, and I'd give it a few weeks to see whether we get more data on how often this side effect occurs. It could be something as simple as a rare conflict with some other drug those people affected were taking.

I find your support for a vaccine that is being "very closely scrutinized" and yet presenting more problems each week as odd too. But at the end of the day, if you wish to take it then that is your choice and you are entitled to make that choice.

I don't have any phobias about Russian science and if their vaccine is working well in all of the countries which have approved it then I would have no issue taking it. That is my choice. This is a medical pandemic that we are facing not a political one. It is not a case of loving Russia or hating the UK or anybody else for me. If a vaccine has issues then I dont want it regardless what country it comes from.

I also would not have any issues with taking the Pfizer or Moderna ones either, because again they seem to be working well in the countries that have approved them without any issues.but again that is my choice.

Goldengirl · 07-04-2021 09:09PM

hmmm wrote: »

If we don't want to give AZ to under 30s fair enough, let's keep the system moving and give it to other groups. If someone is high-risk and turns down a vaccine (and isn't under 30 or whatever the cutoff point is) then they'll have to join the back of queue as we're not in a situation where we can facilitate picking and choosing vaccines. Hopefully however they'll change their minds as no-one wants people to get seriously ill from Covid.

By all means of course , keep moving.
There are a lot of higher risk people to be vaccinated before decisions have to be made about those further down the line who might benefit from a different vaccine than AZ.

This is what is now happening in UK, as they are starting to talk about these younger age , less than 30 , not getting AZ .
Also those with clotting disorders are being advised to discuss with their doctor .
So that is 2 groups of people potentially being allowed to pick their vaccine there , and with good reason .

I would say we may follow with this advice but maybe not with restricting under 30s as yet from AZ ,as our' Covid severe illness vs severe side effect' risk ratio is not at the low risk level they are now at in the UK .
So the ethical dilemma of causing more harm with the vaccine than the illness is not at issue here yet .
But it may be soon .
It can't be ignored .
People won't accept a ' take it or leave it ' attitude to this from the powers that be , and if in low risk groups, may just leave it, which would not be a good result , and far from making things easier will just make it way more difficult in the long run .

CruelSummer · 07-04-2021 09:11PM

Speedline wrote: »

The teachers just want their vaccine in time for the summer holidays. If they were concerned about their students, they would be campaigning to have the students vaccinated first.

I’m sick and tired of the teacher bashing. Most have worked very hard for the past year and are doing their best for the students. They won’t be able to travel abroad due to Ireland’s crazy approach to travel. They are also aware that vaccines aren’t currently available or authorised for use in children. AstraZeneca children trials have been paused also.

07-04-2021 09:11PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

Sorry but this is about a targeted risk group. There is a clear increased risk to women under 45. The odds keep reducing, first they say 1 in a million, now it’s down to a low as 1 in 30,000 or less in the particular at risk age group. This isn’t good enough. Young women not at risk of severe Covid, many of whom are mothers to young children are expected to accept these odds and the lottery that comes with it. Funny I don’t think this would even be suggested if men were the at risk group...but who knows.

The governments first mistake and a pretty big one was to imply MRNA were better and above 70 should receive this type only.

This started the divide and now keeps supply locked to this cohort.

Government would have more options if all vaccines were not tied into this group.

First and second doses between now and some time in May alot to this cohort.

In the UK they dont differentiate in fact many want AZ, but that could be a national pride thing.

We have to stop demonising AZ.

appledrop · 07-04-2021 09:12PM

Kivaro wrote: »

Well, 205K doses of AZ has been issued to people in Ireland as of today. It must be more effective than you think.

It's not effective against the SA variant which we only have in small amounts at the moment.

We also had small amounts of UK variant at one stage look how that turned out!

LLMMLL · 07-04-2021 09:12PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

Sorry but this is about a targeted risk group. There is a clear increased risk to women under 45. The odds keep reducing, first they say 1 in a million, now it’s down to a low as 1 in 30,000 or less in the particular at risk age group. This isn’t good enough. Young women not at risk of severe Covid, many of whom are mothers to young children are expected to accept these odds and the lottery that comes with it. Funny I don’t think this would even be suggested if men were the at risk group...but who knows.

Men are at risk:

79 reports of blood clots after first #AstraZeneca dose
51 women / 28 men
19 died
3 were under 30

Not sure why you’re trying to turn this into a sexism issue.

Turtwig · 07-04-2021 09:16PM

So many false statements in this thread recently.

We do not yet know what the most effective vaccine is. The only way to do that would have been put them all in the same trial. Or a converted series of longitudinal studies that have standardised measurements.

AZ is very likely not 10% effective against the SA. There is a study that states this but it's an estimate with a very large error margin. In short, you cannot take the % at face value.

There's been over 200k of AZ administered in Ireland. To date the rare clotting event has not been observed. It's possible given Ireland's population size we may not even have one. The incidence so far is incredibly rare. So rare our intuition can't really grasp the odds.

There's far more deadly food and medications out there that people consume without a sec on thought. While it is good that people are taking the time to consider their risks. It's worth trying to keep things in a reasonable perspective and proportion.

If you're being offered a vaccine now it's because you have a very high chance of hospitalisation due to COVID. That must be weighed up against any of the concerns over any of the vaccines you may have.

Goldengirl · 07-04-2021 09:30PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

I think if some people who are so against AZ because of a rare side effect ever read the possible side effects of every day medicine like aspirin, well then they might never take any medication ever again if they read the rare side effects of the most common ones.

The mind boggles.

Heres the rare side effects of paracetamol but sure nobody would second guess taking it in the morning.

- Decreased Blood Platelets
- Very Low Levels Of Granulocytes, A Type Of White Blood Cell
- Low Levels Of White Blood Cells
- Low Levels Of A Type Of White Blood Cell Called Neutrophils
- Vocal Cord Swelling
- Acute Liver Failure
- Damage To The Liver And Inflammation
- Inflammation Of The Skin Due To An Allergy
- A Skin Disorder With Blistering And Peeling Skin Called Toxic Epidermal Necrolysis

Absolutely .
But as you say you can read the information about Paracetamol.
Why ?
Because these are rare ,but REPORTED side effects , from years of use .
We don't have this yet with the vaccines .
We are living through one of the biggest , inoculation of new medications into populations ever seen .
Every report of side effects is important ,even if rare , as all need to be investigated and documented.
How else do we know it's not due to age gender, drug interactions .

Nobody is saying this is not a safe or efficacious vaccine , but we don't know yet whether this is correlation or causation, and everybody needs to be informed and aware .
Especially those making decisions for who should get what vaccine ,and those who are advising people of risks and side effects .
It is called professional responsibility and accountability , and every person who takes any vaccine has to give informed consent , so need the very best information.
If people rush to say" nothing to see, all good " nobody is well served.
Trust will be lost and we need people to have faith and trust in the vaccination campaign .

mick087 · 07-04-2021 09:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

19 deaths in UK out of 28 million vaccines administered.

I like those odds.

Its not a headache tablet we are taking.

It basically stops covid in large part.

Most definitely stops a person from dying of covid and all other
benefits.

I agree, this is exactly the way to look at it.

Danzy · 07-04-2021 09:33PM

mick087 wrote: »

I agree, this is exactly the way to look at it.

Anti vaccers are running wild over Astra Zeneca.

fly_agaric · 07-04-2021 09:36PM

Lazy Bhoy wrote: »

I don't have any phobias about Russian science and if their vaccine is working well in all of the countries which have approved it then I would have no issue taking it. That is my choice. This is a medical pandemic that we are facing not a political one. It is not a case of loving Russia or hating the UK or anybody else for me. If a vaccine has issues then I dont want it regardless what country it comes from.

Ah now you're a bit of a mad lad/contrarian wanting Sputnik vaccine so badly yet fearing to take AstraZeneca.
It does not seem rational, but I suppose (assuming you are serious) some people like to go for the mystery prize.

Russia is an autocratic state which is not transparent. In Russia/China you can expect that equivalents of our regulators, the health service etc. (and scientists too) will be captured and beholden to the political system. That reduces my trust in what they say about their vaccines.

Their vaccine is in use in poorer non Western countries with...I'd expect not so good health services compared to the Western European countries that have managed to pick up on a very infrequently occuring potential problem with AZ vaccine in a small cohort of people.

Sputnik has not been through an approval process yet in the likes of EU/US/UK/Japan etc. either.

If it passes through that successfully (same as the other ones that have already been approved) I would not have any problem taking it but would prefer it was manufactured locally (in the EU) if that happens.

mick087 · 07-04-2021 09:38PM

Danzy wrote: »

Anti vaccers are running wild over Astra Zeneca.

Yes i know but i do believe most people in Ireland wont be put off AZ. Most of us will take what ever vaccine we are offered.

07-04-2021 09:41PM

mick087 wrote: »

Yes i know but i do believe most people in Ireland wont be put off AZ. Most of us will take what ever vaccine we are offered.

If 28 million in UK are happy to take it why do I think i'm so precious not to take it?

CruelSummer · 07-04-2021 09:41PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Men are at risk:

79 reports of blood clots after first #AstraZeneca dose
51 women / 28 men
19 died
3 were under 30

Not sure why you’re trying to turn this into a sexism issue.

So the risk is double to women than to men going by what you’ve just posted. I’m not trying to turn this into a sexism issue, I’m just stating my concerns which I am entitled to do.
Astra Zeneca is a car crash company, their supplies to the EU are unreliable, their trial data messy and been called into question re efficacy for over 65’s at first, their disastrous PR in the US re efficacy data being published. Forgive me but I think any company behaving in this manner which is subsequently banned for the under 55’s in many EU countries should be questioned.

mick087 · 07-04-2021 09:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If 28 million in UK are happy to take it why do I think i'm so precious not to take it?

Why do you not wish to take this vaccine?

We would all love a choice im sure, but we don't have the vaccines for that at the moment,

LLMMLL · 07-04-2021 09:46PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

So the risk is double to women than to men going by what you’ve just posted. I’m not trying to turn this into a sexism issue, I’m just stating my concerns which I am entitled to do.
Astra Zeneca is a car crash company, their supplies to the EU are unreliable, their trial data messy and been called into question re efficacy for over 65’s at first, their disastrous PR in the US re efficacy data being published. Forgive me but I think any company behaving in this manner which is subsequently banned for the under 55’s in many EU countries should be questioned.

Um that’s a whole hodgepodge of unrelated issues that have nothing to do with vaccine safety and if you’re basing your decisions on AZ as a company not being great at PR then you have a big issue with assessing risk.

Using words like double in this contextis silly to be honest. Double a tiny number is still tiny. If you think the risk is low for men then it is clearly low for women too. Even if it was double.

If you got paid 1 euro an hour and I got paid 2 euro an hour would you be saying that I am treated fairly by my employer while you are not?

07-04-2021 09:47PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

So the risk is double to women than to men going by what you’ve just posted. I’m not trying to turn this into a sexism issue, I’m just stating my concerns which I am entitled to do.
Astra Zeneca is a car crash company, their supplies to the EU are unreliable, their trial data messy and been called into question re efficacy for over 65’s at first, their disastrous PR in the US re efficacy data being published. Forgive me but I think any company behaving in this manner which is subsequently banned for the under 55’s in many EU countries should be questioned.

Two most important numbers:

19 deaths in UK

28 million vaccinated in UK.

Driving a car is probably more dangerous.

If you read into this level of detail re: risks in your life you would'nt make it past the front door.

LLMMLL · 07-04-2021 09:48PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Two most important numbers:

19 deaths in UK

28 million vaccinated in UK.

Driving a car is probably more dangerous.

Driving a car is incredibly more dangerous. Like waaaaay more dangerous.

eagle eye · 07-04-2021 09:50PM

LLMMLL wrote:

Driving a car is incredibly more dangerous. Like waaaaay more dangerous.

Yeah but you have control of your own car. You have no control over what a vaccine does to your body. They are not comparable.

07-04-2021 09:51PM

mick087 wrote: »

Why do you not wish to take this vaccine?

We would all love a choice im sure, but we don't have the vaccines for that at the moment,

I think youve mis-read. I would take it.

Im saying if its good enough for 28 million its good enough for me.

LLMMLL · 07-04-2021 09:52PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah but you have control of your own car. You have no control over what a vaccine does to your body. They are not comparable.

So nobody ever got killed in a car due to another driver committing an error?

eagle eye · 07-04-2021 09:56PM

LLMMLL wrote:

So nobody ever got killed in a car due to another driver committing an error?

How is that comparable to a vaccine giving you a blood clot?

LLMMLL · 07-04-2021 10:00PM

eagle eye wrote: »

How is that comparable to a vaccine giving you a blood clot?

You seem to be implying that you can control your risk in driving (which is waaaaay higher than risk of blood clot). I’m pointing out that this is nonsense. You cannot control your risk as a driver any more than you can control your vaccine risk.

Maybe you need to convince yourself you are in control when driving to ignore the relatively high risk you are taking.

07-04-2021 10:01PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah but you have control of your own car. You have no control over what a vaccine does to your body. They are not comparable.

You think you've control but you dont.

A driver on the opposite side of the road could be on their mobile phone texting and plough straight into you and there would have been nothing you could have done.

With regards healthcare at some point you have to trust professionals. You are not a trained medical professional.

They are telling a person now that they are in a high category of potential severe covid if they are infected. Taking this will in all liklihood save them in a few short weeks from a severe outcome of covid. What to do? F**k it, I know better than you. I'll pass. That is your right and entitlement, but most people will not come to that conclusion.

eagle eye · 07-04-2021 10:05PM

LLMMLL wrote:

You seem to be implying that you can control your risk in driving (which is waaaaay higher than risk of blood clot). Iâ€™m pointing out that this is nonsense. You cannot control your risk as a driver any more than you can control your vaccine risk.

But they are not comparable.
Risk assessment is what you do.
What's your chances of catching covid if you don't take a vaccine for a couple of months longer, and not contracting the virus is pretty much in your own hands versus taking a vaccine that a very small percentage of people get blood clots from.
It's not like driving, what's your other options? Walk, hardly reasonable if you are travelling 20+ miles, train or bus might not be an option.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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