What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

LLMMLL

take everything wrote: »

I think it is awful that people are taking a vaccine under what seems like duress and not given a choice.

Everyone else who wants to take AZ, fire ahead. But people should be given a choice.

Supposed supply issues or not.

But if people are given a choice and everyone chooses to not get AZ there won’t be enough supply. How can you say supply isn’t a factor?

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

You are conflating risk on a population level with risk to a individual. A random person in a population pool may have odds of 1 in a million. A specific individual with specific medical history may have very different odds. They need to discuss their concerns with their medical team and if they don't feel their medical team are able to answer their concerns they should ask for their medical team to seek to those answers or refer them to someone who can.

Please can we stop telling posters with concerns here that their odds are 1 in 4 million. That may or may not be the case depending on their individual details.

In the coming weeks the EMA will publish even more details that should hopefully help stratify the risk even further.

Dont take it then and wait as no pfzier available in short term.

Thats your choice.

In an ideal world that wouldnt be the case.

Out of over 200,000 az doses given out in ireland how many people had died of blood clots?

Thousands died of covid in ireland in last three months.

Thats reality.

Turtwig

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

I've no idea what the number would be without the vaccine, not sure if it's that important in this discussion anyway.

Absolutely it doesn't mean the vaccine was the reason, but it is concerning, particularly as it's in an age group that hasn't been widely vaccinated at this stage. If there were more vaccines given to that age group would there be more deaths ?

BTW I've had the first dose of AZ and will get my 2nd when called.

It's very important.

If I get a chance next week I'll see if I can find it. Effectively what you want to know is in 2019 before covid what was the rate of this incident in people under 30s and what the known risk factors were. Then you compare that the number of people vaccinated under 30, adjust where possible for the various risks, and estimate how many events you'd expect from history versus what it is actually being observed.
That tells you then how much of additional risk the vaccine is.

Keep in mind too that the event is now being monitored for. This may lead to an over detection in 2021 as many more identical events than that in 2019 may have gone completely unrecorded.

Turtwig

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Dont take it then and wait as no pfzier available in short term.

Thats your choice.

In an ideal world that wouldnt be the case.

Out of over 200,000 az doses given out in ireland how many people had died of blood clots?

Thousands died of covid in ireland in last three months.

Thats reality.

You are missing the point. Maybe this analogy will help.

If I give every random person in Ireland a sandwich. Millions of them will be fine. A few specific individuals will have an allergic reaction.
But your logic to everyone is they should continue eating the sandwich.

You can tell them millions have taken it as much as you like. Fact is people with a peanut allergy should not eat peanuts.

Strazdas

Out of interest, who exactly is getting AstraZeneca in Ireland at the moment? Is it those with underlying conditions of all ages, plus healthcare staff?

is_that_so

Strazdas wrote: »

Out of interest, who exactly is getting AstraZeneca in Ireland at the moment? Is it those with underlying conditions of all ages, plus healthcare staff?

Anyone under 65 who is on a vaccination list when stocks are available.

take everything

LLMMLL wrote: »

But if people are given a choice and everyone chooses to not get AZ there won’t be enough supply. How can you say supply isn’t a factor?

Why on earth would everyone choose an alternative vaccine.

Going by this thread alone, there is a sizeable proportion of people who would be happy to choose Astra Zeneca

LLMMLL

take everything wrote: »

Why on earth would everyone choose an alternative vaccine.

Going by this thread alone, there is a sizeable proportion of people who would be happy to choose Astra Zeneca

I think you’re confusing “happy to take” with “would prefer”. Why would you take a lower efficacy vaccine if you had a completely free choice.

Larbre34

I'm all in favour of vaccines generally, but I won't take Astra Zeneca now. If when the time comes for my shot (months away) AZ is what I'm offered, I'll politely refuse and if none of the other 3 are available at that moment, I'll be happy to wait until one is and will sign a waiver to that effect if needs be.

The blood clotting has been noted following 1/171,200 doses. I wouldn't get on an aircraft type that had those odds of crashing. Would you?

The question isn't whether to let people choose their 'favorite' though. It's whether to divert AZ supply to those less at risk of the clotting disorder, and provide an alternative to those who are at risk. It's absolutely possible given the mix of vaccine supply we'll have this quarter. I can understand why this would be difficult for the UK, who are reliant on AZ, to implement in the under 50s. But I can't understand why we in Ireland can't do it.

Turtwig

Flying Fox wrote: »

The question isn't whether to let people choose their 'favorite' though. It's whether to divert AZ supply to those less at risk of the clotting disorder, and provide an alternative to those who are at risk. It's absolutely possible given the mix of vaccine supply we'll have this quarter. I can understand why this would be difficult for the UK, who are reliant on AZ, to implement in the under 50s. But I can't understand why we in Ireland can't do it.

I'd imagine that's the discussion that's ongoing at the moment. Hopefully in a few weeks when the risks are better understood people can be advised accordingly and if there are any particular higher risk groups they can be offered alternatives.

Lesalare

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'm all in favour of vaccines generally, but I won't take Astra Zeneca now. If when the time comes for my shot (months away) AZ is what I'm offered, I'll politely refuse and if none of the other 3 are available at that moment, I'll be happy to wait until one is and will sign a waiver to that effect if needs be.

The blood clotting has been noted following 1/171,200 doses. I wouldn't get on an aircraft type that had those odds of crashing. Would you?

This is exactly how I am feeling today. It's really spooked me. I have a bad level of an arterial disease I deal with daily and my Dad died at 55 (10 years older than me) of Thrombosis. He went from walking up the stairs at 4.55pm on a Sat to being dead at 5.10pm and I witnessed it happening.

I'm not happy now at all taking this AZ vaccine and I'll do same as you. I'll happily pay for one of the other 2 if I have to.

Also I've shacked myself up in a one bed apt for the past 12 months pretty much, completely on my own, with zero work. I'm not going to let anyone suddenly insist I take something like this vaccine and expect me to sit for 3 weeks waiting, utterly paranoid to find out if I'm going to go the same way as my Dad.

Tyrone212

Rate from UK data increases to more than 1 in 100k in the under 30s, to in 1 in 500k in older folks. That was up to end of March. How many have been missed or not accounted for yet when other countries have caught more of it.

Larbre34

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Rate from UK data increases to more than 1 in 100k in the under 30s up to in 1 in 500k in older folks. That was up to end of March. How many have been missed or not accounted for yet when other countries have caught more of it.

Thats a very good point. In the current circumstances, there is no question that incidences are being missed and won't be documented until after this whole event.

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

You are missing the point. Maybe this analogy will help.

If I give every random person in Ireland a sandwich. Millions of them will be fine. A few specific individuals will have an allergic reaction.
But your logic to everyone is they should continue eating the sandwich.

You can tell them millions have taken it as much as you like. Fact is people with a peanut allergy should not eat peanuts.

Yes but if everyone ate sandwiches in ireland and ten people died due to this.

But eating those sandwiches saved 1000s of lives in less than a year, avoided thousands of hospitlisations and allowed
businesses to reopen and hospitals/screening to return to normal services.

Is those 10 lives lost worth the upside gain of all that?

Absolutely.

Benefits outweigh risks.

EMA and UK regulator has said this and I agree with them.

Common sense.

Taking a vaccine helps you and indirectly helps others.

Thats how you justify it yourself.

No such thing in life as 0% risk.

Accept that risk or dont.

I dont actually care if individuals dont take it for whatever reason.

95% will to help their community.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but if everyone ate sandwiches in ireland and ten people died due to this.

But eating those sandwiches saved 1000s of lives in less than a year and allowed
businesses to reopen. Hospitals/screening to return to normal services. Is those 10 lives lost worth the upside gain of all that. Absoloutely.

Benefits outweigh risks. EMA and UK regulator has said this and I agree with them.

The point is that we have other vaccines that do not present these safety issues. AZ only makes up a quarter of our supply, so give it to the people who are not at risk of this disorder. There's no reason why it can't be done.

LLMMLL

Flying Fox wrote: »

The question isn't whether to let people choose their 'favorite' though. It's whether to divert AZ supply to those less at risk of the clotting disorder, and provide an alternative to those who are at risk. It's absolutely possible given the mix of vaccine supply we'll have this quarter. I can understand why this would be difficult for the UK, who are reliant on AZ, to implement in the under 50s. But I can't understand why we in Ireland can't do it.

Just curious, are you a woman 40-50? Everyone else is talking about the under 30s...

stephenjmcd

Lesalare wrote: »

This is exactly how I am feeling today. It's really spooked me. I have a bad level of an arterial disease I deal with daily and my Dad died at 55 (10 years older than me) of Thrombosis. He went from walking up the stairs at 4.55pm on a Sat to being dead at 5.10pm and I witnessed it happening.

I'm not happy now at all taking this AZ vaccine and I'll do same as you. I'll happily pay for one of the other 2 if I have to.

Also I've shacked myself up in a one bed apt for the past 12 months pretty much, completely on my own, with zero work. I'm not going to let anyone suddenly insist I take something like this vaccine and expect me to sit for 3 weeks waiting, utterly paranoid to find out if I'm going to go the same way as my Dad.

Look at the end of the day the only person who can discuss it with you is your GP or consultant if you have one. They're the ones who'll be able to best advise, not anyone here.

But there is no paying for a vaccine etc, it's a yes or no question, no backup list for another vaccine etc.

LLMMLL

Larbre34 wrote: »

The blood clotting has been noted following 1/171,200 doses. I wouldn't get on an aircraft type that had those odds of crashing. Would you?

I think you already do...

appledrop

Beanybabog wrote: »

I’ve really lost confidence in it. I’m would never have been anti - vaccination at all, I got myself and kids extra vaccines etc. I was very excited about the vaccines coming and now I really hope I get a different one. I’ll be miles down the list so I suppose by the time they get to me we’ll know more and hopefully I’ll feel better about getting it, if that’s the one I’m offered. Comparing the risk of death from covid to AZ doesn’t really help when you can also compare the risk of dying from AZ to the risk from Pfizer which appears to be nil??

I'm the exact same. I'm also not impressed with at all with mantra that risk of Covid outweighs any risk of vaccine by Europe.

Eh no. Sure our own government have been harping on that older age group 70 times more likely to be hospitalised or die from Covid and that's why we have to move to age based vaccine.

So basicially our own government saying that young people at no real risk from Covid but sure take AZ vaccine that might cause blood clots, brian clot or kill you especially if your a women.

Sure its grand.

Absolutely disgraceful, especially when it's a vaccine thats not even effective against a number of strains of Covid.

Young women should not be getting this vaccine.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Just curious, are you a woman 40-50? Everyone else is talking about the under 30s...

The UK is talking about the under 30s. Every other country that has restricted use has gone with a cut off of at least 55. The UK simply can't do that for obvious reasons.

The German cases were aged 20-63.

No I'm not aged 40-50, not that it should be relevant.

LLMMLL

Lesalare wrote: »

This is exactly how I am feeling today. It's really spooked me. I have a bad level of an arterial disease I deal with daily and my Dad died at 55 (10 years older than me) of Thrombosis. He went from walking up the stairs at 4.55pm on a Sat to being dead at 5.10pm and I witnessed it happening.

I'm not happy now at all taking this AZ vaccine and I'll do same as you. I'll happily pay for one of the other 2 if I have to.

Also I've shacked myself up in a one bed apt for the past 12 months pretty much, completely on my own, with zero work. I'm not going to let anyone suddenly insist I take something like this vaccine and expect me to sit for 3 weeks waiting, utterly paranoid to find out if I'm going to go the same way as my Dad.

There’s no chance of you being able to pay for it. All supply is taken up.

LLMMLL

Flying Fox wrote: »

The UK is talking about the under 30s. Every other country that has restricted use has gone with a cut off of at least 55. The UK simply can't do that for obvious reasons.

The German cases were aged 20-63.

No I'm not aged 40-50, not that it should be relevant.

There were plenty of men amongst the deaths. Are you proposing that men under 60 get AZ but women don’t?

r93kaey5p2izun

I won't be following up my place on the cohort 4 list anyway, as I've not received an appointment yet. At the moment I'm leaning towards not getting it if offered though. And that's in line with 2 out of 3 doctors I've sought advice from, for the moment.

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'm all in favour of vaccines generally, but I won't take Astra Zeneca now. If when the time comes for my shot (months away) AZ is what I'm offered, I'll politely refuse and if none of the other 3 are available at that moment, I'll be happy to wait until one is and will sign a waiver to that effect if needs be.

The blood clotting has been noted following 1/171,200 doses. I wouldn't get on an aircraft type that had those odds of crashing. Would you?

Whats your odds of dying of covid?

Leo said 1 in a 1000 for a person in 40's.

Even a 25 year old its probably still lower than 10,000 to 1.

There is a risk of taking it and there is a risk of not taking it.

The plane analogy is nonsense as in most cases your not risking your life by not getting on a plane.

Also by getting on the plane you get protection and freedoms you wouldnt get
standing on the runway refusing to get on the plane.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

There were plenty of men amongst the deaths. Are you proposing that men under 60 get AZ but women don’t?

Where did I say anything of the sort?

If the evidence shows that there's no gender difference in terms of cases and deaths, then of course it should be based on age, and any other risk factors that can be identified.

Up to now this disorder appeared far more prevalent in women, particularly based on the German data. If the data shows it's safe for men, use it, if not, restrict it for both.

appledrop

appledrop wrote: »

I'm the exact same. I'm also not impressed with at all with mantra that risk of Covid outweighs any risk of vaccine by Europe.

Eh no. Sure our own government have been harping on that older age group 70 times more likely to be hospitalised or die from Covid and that's why we have to move to age based vaccine.

So basicially our own government saying that young people at no real risk from Covid but sure take AZ vaccine that might cause blood clots, brian clot or kill you especially if your a women.

Sure its grand.

Absolutely disgraceful, especially when it's a vaccine thats not even effective against a number of strains of Covid.

Young women should not be getting this vaccine.

Your understating covid risk and overstating blood clot risk.

Plenty of people in their 20's 30's and 40's hospitalised in third wave .

Double digits everyday in those cohorts for months.

LLMMLL

Flying Fox wrote: »

Where did I say anything of the sort?

If the evidence shows that there's no gender difference in terms of cases and deaths, then of course it should be based on age, and any other risk factors that can be identified.

Up to now this disorder appeared far more prevalent in women, particularly based on the German data. If the data shows it's safe for men, use it, if not, restrict it for both.

If it’s restricted for both we can’t vaccinate everyone and this has serious consequences for public health (and individual health).

Doesn’t it make sense to take the current approach that we take for all medicines. List it as a VERY RARE side effect and proceed based on what will give the best outcome.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Whats your odds of dying of covid?

Leo said 1 in a 1000 for a person in 40's.

Even a 25 year old its probably still lower than 10,000 to 1.

There is a risk of taking it and there is a risk of not taking it.

The plane analogy is nonsense as in most cases your not risking your life by not getting on a plane.

Also by getting on the plane you get protection and freedoms you wouldnt get
standing on the runway refusing to get on the plane.

Look up the QCovid risk caculator to get an estimate of your actual risk of dying from covid. Its miles off the figures you quoted there.

appledrop

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your understating covid risk and overstating blood clot risk.

Plenty of people in their 20's 30's and 40's hospitalised in third wave .

Double digits everyday in those cohorts for months.

Well tell that to government who are banging on about not vaccinating younger teachers because according to their soundbites, 70 times less likely to be hospitalised.

The government can't have it everyway, one minute it's a deadly disease next minute it's grand if your a young teacher in class of 25+ won't affect you.

It's a load of nonsense at this stage.