What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Uhm those 28 million are not a random sample but mostly older/unhealthier slice of population precisely the opposite of those having blood clots

Neither is quoting uk figures inspire confidence, their death rate is double Ireland which translated to at least excess Covid 70,000 deaths

You do know they have vaccinated from 50+ and older plus millions of healthcare professionals.

19 is still only 19.

You probably are at more risk mowing your lawn than taking AZ.

Tyrone212

Spain will now only use Oxford AstraZeneca in the over 60s. Belgium over 55s.

robinph

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Uhm those 28 million are not a random sample but mostly older/unhealthier slice of population precisely the opposite of those having blood clots

Neither is quoting uk figures inspire confidence, their death rate is double Ireland which translated to at least excess Covid 70,000 deaths

Rubbish.

Over half of the vaccinations given so far are to people under the age of 65, and also perfectly healthy people who just happen to work in care homes or hospitals.

The UK death rate from covid, and your next post which will probably include a reference to Brexit, are also irrelevant to the numbers in relation to vaccination or any cases or reactions to the vaccines.

Stark

Deleted User wrote: »

You do know they have vaccinated from 50+ and older plus millions of healthcare professionals.

19 is still only 19.

You probably are at more risk mowing your lawn than taking AZ.

If it was a choice between AZ and no vaccine, I would say it was worth the risk.
If we can't narrow down the at-risk cohorts, and to drop AZ means delaying the vaccination program, still worth the risk imo.
If we can narrow it down to a small enough cohort where we can still maintain pace of vaccination while giving that cohort an alternative, then 19 is too many imo.
I'm hoping it comes down to option 3.

Hurrache

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Two most important numbers:

19 deaths in UK

28 million vaccinated in UK.

Driving a car is probably more dangerous.

If you read into this level of detail re: risks in your life you would'nt make it past the front door.

The figure you have is for those with 1 dose, it's actually higher. It's about 5.5 million that are fully vaccinated there.

robinph

LLMMLL wrote: »

Men are at risk:

79 reports of blood clots after first #AstraZeneca dose
51 women / 28 men
19 died
3 were under 30

Not sure why you’re trying to turn this into a sexism issue.

Once the numbers are weighted to account for who has actually received the vaccine, in the younger ages that mostly being women working in nursing etc, the difference between cases for men and women disappeared.

Stark

Stark wrote: »

If it was a choice between AZ and no vaccine, I would say it was worth the risk.
If we can't narrow down the at-risk cohorts, and to drop AZ means delaying the vaccination program, still worth the risk imo.
If we can narrow it down to a small enough cohort where we can still maintain pace of vaccination while giving that cohort an alternative, then 19 is too many imo.
I'm hoping it comes down to option 3.

Fair enough.

Just copy and paste what UK are doing (under 30 with no underlying have vaccine options).

They have better expertise than us and probably have most successful vaccination program in europe.

Are we going to keep following Germany's failed vaccination policy?

This gives us 3 months to plan.

It will be July before this cohort comes up.

We cant be reacting disproportionately to such rare events that have only happened internationally.

Over 2000 people have died of covid 19 in ireland in 2021.

200,000 doses of astra have been administered in ireland.

Not one death or even case of this rare blood clotting has occured in ireland.

LLMMLL

eagle eye wrote: »

But they are not comparable.
Risk assessment is what you do.
What's your chances of catching covid if you don't take a vaccine for a couple of months longer, and not contracting the virus is pretty much in your own hands versus taking a vaccine that a very small percentage of people get blood clots from.
It's not like driving, what's your other options? Walk, hardly reasonable if you are travelling 20+ miles, train or bus might not be an option.

Not catching the virus is not in your own hands. I think the issue here is that you have a false sense of control over your own life. You believe you can control whether you get the virus, you believe you can control the chances of a car crash. You are wrong on both these counts.

Certainly you can reduce your risk of car crashes and catching a virus. But you can’t control it no matter what you think.

LLMMLL

robinph wrote: »

Once the numbers are weighted to account for who has actually received the vaccine, in the younger ages that mostly being women working in nursing etc, the difference between cases for men and women disappeared.

Good to know. So if men and women are equally at risk then there can be no real diverting of one vaccine for women. The rollout should proceed as planned.

robinph

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair enough.

Just copy and paste what UK are going (under 30 with no underlying have vaccine options).

They have better expertise than us and probably have most successful vaccination program in europe.

Are we going to keep following Germany's failed vaccination policy?

This gives us 3 months to plan.

It will be July before this cohort comes up.

We cant be reacting disproportionately to such rare events that have only happened internationally.

Over 2000 people have died of covid 19 in ireland in 2021.

200,000 doses of astra have been administered in ireland.

Not one death or even case of this rare blood clotting has occured in ireland.

The first chart on this page, which I think they had a couple of versions of in the UK press conference, shows the risks for the current rate of infections around the UK against the risks that are possible with the Astra Zeneca vaccine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56665517

Should be noted though that the risk from covid is just for a 16 week duration, then you'd add on another risk on top of that for the next 16 weeks (depending on the rate of cases in the population at the time). If you don't take the vaccine you remain at risk from covid and your chances of getting it mount up. Whilst the risk from the vaccine is a one off.

Admittedly there might be booster shots in the future etc, but that is months/years away yet... And there will be a whole host of different vaccines available at that point if they even decide that it's worth giving booster shots to anyone other than the most vulnerable.

stephenjmcd

LLMMLL wrote: »

Not catching the virus is not in your own hands. I think the issue here is that you have a false sense of control over your own life. You believe you can control whether you get the virus, you believe you can control the chances of a car crash. You are wrong on both these counts.

Certainly you can reduce your risk of car crashes and catching a virus. But you can’t control it no matter what you think.

I wouldn't bother tbh, your going to be going round and round here, see below from yesterday, the same debate.

"Well it's quite easy to avoid covid for me"

There's nothing in anyones control about contracting a virus, someone can follow all the advice and still contract it.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116808298&postcount=8736

robinph

robinph wrote: »

The first chart on this page, which I think they had a couple of versions of in the UK press conference, shows the risks for the current rate of infections around the UK against the risks that are possible with the Astra Zeneca vaccine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56665517

Should be noted though that the risk from covid is just for a 16 week duration, then you'd add on another risk on top of that for the next 16 weeks (depending on the rate of cases in the population at the time). If you don't take the vaccine you remain at risk from covid and your chances of getting it mount up. Whilst the risk from the vaccine is a one off.

Admittedly there might be booster shots in the future etc, but that is months/years away yet... And there will be a whole host of different vaccines available at that point if they even decide that it's worth giving booster shots to anyone other than the most vulnerable.

I hope we go with the british on this.

Its their vaccine.

They know the most about it.

AZ is too important to us in the next 3 months.

Sticking needles into 7 billion people asap was always going to cause
some rare side effects. Its about maintaining confidence in vaccines too.

Some european countries have been playing politics a little too much with AZ and the british.

Ignore the noise and keep jabbing away with the head down.

Thats what most irish people want to see happen in next three months.

Hurrache

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I hope we go with the british on this.

Its their vaccine.

They know the most about it.

AZ is too important to us in the next 3 months.

Sticking needles into 7 billion people asap was always going to cause
some rare side effects. Its about maintaining confidence in vaccines too.

Some european countries have been playing politics a little too much with AZ and the british.

Ignore the noise and keep jabbing away with the head down.

Thats what most irish people want to see happen in next three months.

Are you not realising that the British now have a wider more cautious net when it comes to usage of the AZ vacine?

Why aren't you complaining about their 'political' approach? Put the British red top rags away.

speckle

Catching up reading this thread...Whatever side of the fences you sit on this subject spare a thought for the young women who are pregnant.. they are not only trying to make a decision for themselves but their unborn child in a rapidly evolving situation..with sometimes conflicting information from their own medical team..there is no need for harsh or condescending words or a paternalistic tone...but yourself in their shoes for a moment and even their partners/husbands etc. Some even may even be literally alone as potential single parents.

speckle

speckle wrote: »

Catching up reading this thread...Whatever side of the fences you sit on this subject spare a thought for the young women who are pregnant.. they are not only trying to make a decision for themselves but their unborn child in a rapidly evolving situation..with sometimes conflicting information from their own medical team..there is no need for harsh or condescending words or a paternalistic tone...but yourself in their shoes for a moment and even their partners/husbands etc. Some even may even be literally alone as potential single parents.

Blame the government/tony holihan who allocated all pfzier/moderna to over 70's for months on end.

Turns out Astra is a better vaccine for older people.

Good old Tony.

Hurrache

Hurrache wrote: »

Are you not realising that the British now have a wider more cautious net when it comes to usage of the AZ vacine?

Why aren't you complaining about their 'political' approach? Put the British red top rags away.

Yes and I hope we follow their recent usage correction.

Why would I, it doesnt affect me?

Politicising AZ could affect me.

astrofool

Deleted User wrote: »

Blame the government/tony holihan who allocated all pfzier/moderna to over 70's for months on end.

Turns out Astra is a better vaccine for older people.

Good old Tony.

Blame AstraZeneca/Oxford for messing up their trials (multiple times).

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

Blame AstraZeneca/Oxford for messing up their trials (multiple times).

Why would I blame an organisation for producing one of the first effective covid vaccines?

UK knew it was safe for older people.

UK approach:

Vaccinate everyone apart from under 30's

German approach:

its not safe for older people.

it is safe for older people.

its not safe for younger people.

Miike

Deleted User wrote: »

Blame the government/tony holihan who allocated all pfzier/moderna to over 70's for months on end.

Turns out Astra is a better vaccine for older people.

Good old Tony.

Tony Holohan is not a member of the NIAC.

https://www.rcpi.ie/policy-and-advocacy/national-immunisation-advisory-committee/who-we-are/

How are people still beating the Tony Holohan drum, 14 months down the line...

speckle

The lack of clearly explained and concise information all the way down the medical chain even if it is..I dont know yet or these are the possibilitys..we need another three weeks or until x happens etc is what is concerning me. And that is not to say they should all sing from the same book...

But at least they should have a one to one call with anyone pregnant, like our gp has being doing for anyone high risk who asks so far.

For example sorting with consultants the most apprioprate vaccine timing re immunosuppressant meds for those choosing vacination and explaining why to the person.

They are also having conversations regarding risks versus benefits regarding vaccination based on an individuals medical history eg comorbidities or previous adverse reactions etc

Miike

Miike wrote: »

Tony Holohan is not a member of the NIAC.

https://www.rcpi.ie/policy-and-advocacy/national-immunisation-advisory-committee/who-we-are/

How are people still beating the Tony Holohan drum, 14 months down the line...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/holohan-backs-plan-to-use-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-for-over-70s-1.4475153

Tony Holihan went beyond what NIAC recommended, see below:

The committee found that all approved vaccines were suitable for adults, and that “the best vaccine anyone can receive at this time is the vaccine that can be soonest administered”

If it was up to NIAC, many over 70's would have got pfzier/moderna, many AZ, but Tony insisted to Health Minster that they had to get MRNA, delay or no delays caused and so it was in April many over 70's are still unvaccinated. That is not what NIAC recommended.

Miike

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/holohan-backs-plan-to-use-pfizer-moderna-vaccines-for-over-70s-1.4475153

Tony Holihan went beyond what NIAC recommended.

If it was up to NIAC, many over 70's would have got pfzier/moderna, many AZ, but Tony insisted to Health Minster that they had to get MRNA, delay or no delays caused and so it was.

CMO follows the expert panels recommendations... Your issue is with NIAC.


"Tony insisted..."

In a letter to Mr Donnelly, seen by the Irish Times, Dr Holohan said that “due to the superior efficacy demonstrated by mRNA vaccines, including in orlder persons, albeit the data is limited, and in recognition of their particular vulnerability in terms of their increased risk of death and serious disease if they contract SARS CoV-2, it is recommended that mRNA vaccines be administered to all those over 70 years in order to provide the highest level of protection available to this population.

NeuralNetwork

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why would I blame an organisation for producing one of the first effective covid vaccines?

UK knew it was safe for older people.

UK approach:

Vaccinate everyone apart from under 30's

German approach:

its not safe for older people.

it is safe for older people.

its not safe for younger people.

German approach: develop a vaccine that works smoothly, don’t politicise it or wave flags, carry out clinical trials to spec and partner with a big company that can actually ensure it can be delivered in the necessary huge quantities to several continents...

All done without any rants and raves...

Miike

Miike wrote: »

CMO follows the expert panels recommendations... Your issue is with NIAC.


"Tony insisted..."

Correct Tony insisted

NIAC said at this point in time:

The committee found that all approved vaccines were suitable for adults, and that “the best vaccine anyone can receive at this time is the vaccine that can be soonest administered”


Hence my issue with Tony. Took what NIAC said and went one step further.

They did not say stick religously with mrna vaccines for this group even if it takes you into middle of April before some of them have got even their first dose. They actually said the opposite of this. Tony insisted, they said it was preferential supplies allowing. His interpratation was they are all getting it and thats it.

Miike

Deleted User wrote: »

Correct Tony insisted

NIAC said at this point in time:

The committee found that all approved vaccines were suitable for adults, and that “the best vaccine anyone can receive at this time is the vaccine that can be soonest administered”

Lets keep quoting the same article at each other, it's super fun.

The Irish Times reported on Wednesday morning that the advice from the National Immunisation Advisory Centre (NIAC) was that it would be preferential to give mRNA vaccines to older age groups.

However, it recommended that while vaccinations should not be delayed, “those aged 70 and older should be given an mRNA vaccine”.

Larbre34

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ignore the noise and keep jabbing away with the head down.

Thats what most irish people want to see happen in next three months.

Its going to be interesting to see the inevitable polling on this matter, because when it comes to Astra Zeneca, I think you're wrong.

If there are four vaccine types available and three haven't returned any significant side effects, why would any sane person accept the one type that has a very low risk of a very significant side effect?

I believe AZ is going to be rejected by potential recipients the World over. Why would it not be with those alternatives?

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its going to be interesting to see the inevitable polling on this matter, because when it comes to Astra Zeneca, I think you're wrong.

If there are four vaccine types available and three haven't returned any significant side effects, why would any sane person accept the one type that has a very low risk of a very significant side effect?

I believe AZ is going to be rejected by potential recipients the World over. Why would it not be with those alternatives?

Because supply is limited.

Its not a sweet shop.

If your offered AZ and you decline it could be months before you receive alternative.

Miike

Miike wrote: »

Lets keep quoting the same article at each other, it's super fun.

However, it recommended that while vaccinations should not be delayed, “those aged 70 and older should be given an mRNA vaccine”.

It has been delayed.

Commentators at the time remarked at Tonys insinstance for these beyond what NIAC recommended.

NIAC did not want over 70's still waiting for first dose of mrna vaccine in April when over 200K doses of Astra have been given out.

You can keep arguing, but there was a difference between what Tony wanted and NIAC wanted.

Tony got his way as per usual.

Turtwig

[Deleted User] wrote: »

there was a difference between what Tony wanted and NIAC wanted.

Tony got his way as per usual.

Did Tony H piss in your corn flakes or something?

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

Did Tony H piss in your corn flakes or something?

As a person hes probably fine.

As CMO not so much.

He was OK in wave 1, but should have left on high last summer and came back this summer to clean up.

Don't trust his decision-making.