COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

Amirani · 25-03-2021 05:31PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Well then they need to review the data quality and QA it in that case. Honestly, this stuff wouldn't be tolerated in most organisations.

It obviously would've been QA'd in UAT before going to Production.

These dashboards get direct data feeds from vaccination system, so they're entirely dependent on the data that gets loaded into that. If a weekend vaccination centre batch-uploaded data into the Salesforce system on a Monday, then there's not much that can be done to prevent against that at dashboard level, regardless of how much QA has been done.

namloc1980 · 25-03-2021 05:35PM

Amirani wrote: »

It obviously would've been QA'd in UAT before going to Production.

These dashboards get direct data feeds from vaccination system, so they're entirely dependent on the data that gets loaded into that. If a weekend vaccination centre batch-uploaded data into the Salesforce system on a Monday, then there's not much that can be done to prevent against that at dashboard level, regardless of how much QA has been done.

There is. I work on dashboards and there are plenty of mechanisms to ensure data integrity and not just throwing your hands up and saying "shur what can you do". Just endless excuses with the HSE.

Turtwig · 25-03-2021 05:35PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Grand so we can't believe the vaccinations data being provided and it needs to be checked and verified by people outside the HSE. Fantastic.

No.
Any real time reporting dashboards and interfaces needs to be used and interpreted appropriately.

Wolf359f · 25-03-2021 05:36PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Grand so we can't believe the vaccinations data being provided and it needs to be checked and verified by people outside the HSE. Fantastic.

Swab dashboard the other day had all zeros, if they reported we have zero positive tests and all tests thus far appear to have been false positives, in your book that's ok, because they are reporting the data.
Journalists used to investigate, now they just copy and paste and parrot stuff.

When they see something like 6 second doses on Sunday (and the same report warns of delays to reporting) they publish, ONLY 6 doses. They could have said at LEAST 6 doses and we've contacted the HSE for confirmation etc...

Fergal made the same mistake about 100k AZ doses sitting idle weeks ago, turns out he was going off incorrect delivery schedule and after he contacted the relevant department he was told what was delivered was used up and there was no further AZ deliveries etc...

25-03-2021 05:36PM

Turtwig wrote: »

Are they parrots or journalists?

If the figure was 6,600,000 for Sunday should they check it or take the data at face value? I expect journalists to be responsible. Ask hard but fair and accurate questions. Be investigative.
The current crop do sweet fvk all in this regard.

Real Time reporting of any data set is always going to have caveats. Interpretation of data is more than just reading a number.

That kind of highlights that 6 was not an unbelievable figure...

namloc1980 · 25-03-2021 05:38PM

Turtwig wrote: »

No.
Any real time reporting dashboards and interfaces needs to be used and interpreted appropriately.

There are ways of ensuring data integrity and accuracy even on dashboards believe it or not.

25-03-2021 05:38PM

https://twitter.com/PriscillaLynch/status/1375118374162817030?s=19

Seems it is confirmed now, that they are in talks, hopefully it wont take long.

titan18 · 25-03-2021 05:40PM

Turtwig wrote: »

No.
Any real time reporting dashboards and interfaces needs to be used and interpreted appropriately.

It's not real time. It's reporting pretty much 2 and a half days later. I work in a data/reporting role and create those reports and if I put out data that said we made 10 sales yesterday and we actually made it 1000 and that went to senior managers, I'd be fecked out of it.

josip · 25-03-2021 05:44PM

landofthetree wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1375114125630705674

Novovax doing what AZ should have done but didn't.

hmmm · 25-03-2021 05:45PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

They're just posting the data that is published on the HSE dashboard. You would expect the data to be correct so why should journalists or the public have to double check if the published data is correct or not?

I wouldn't expect the public to check it, no. I expect a reporter would want to check it though. Isn't that what a reporter does?

I'm not expecting reporters to check every single bit of data, but if the system is reporting a figure which sounds a bit mad Ted, wouldn't you want to check it before reporting it? (or is that just me?).

eoinbn · 25-03-2021 05:45PM

landofthetree wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1375114125630705674

Organise. Piss-up. Brewery.

I did think that might be part of the reason for the delay. The EU can't really complain about a vaccine that they havent ordered going from the EU to the UK, Canada, Australia US etc.
They didn't back Novavax and instead threw billions at Curevac which has been a mistake. The people making these decisions need to be moved on. Nobody else made as many bad calls as the EU team.

Apogee · 25-03-2021 05:50PM

Apogee wrote: »

HSE Briefing:
-17,500 AZ administered since Sunday to Today
-Estimate of 200-230k in Cohort 4
-Will take until end April/early May to do Cohort 4

That estimate of 'very high risk' (which I'm interpreting as Cohort 4) has increased from 150,000 to 200-230k.

17 minutes in:
https://bit.ly/3ffXAf4

Amirani · 25-03-2021 05:52PM

titan18 wrote: »

It's not real time. It's reporting pretty much 2 and a half days later. I work in a data/reporting role and create those reports and if I put out data that said we made 10 sales yesterday and we actually made it 1000 and that went to senior managers, I'd be fecked out of it.

There's a difference between a live dashboard that takes a feed from a vaccination system, and as such is just a reflection of the input data to that system, and whatever reports it is you build manually.

The HSE dashboard wouldn't have any human intervention after it goes through UAT and into production, so your analogy isn't appropriate.

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 25-03-2021 05:52PM

eoinbn wrote: »

I did think that might be part of the reason for the delay. The EU can't really complain about a vaccine that they havent ordered going from the EU to the UK, Canada, Australia US etc.
They didn't back Novavax and instead threw billions at Curevac which has been a mistake. The people making these decisions need to be moved on. Nobody else made as many bad calls as the EU team.

But Novavax isn't delivering until the second half of the year. We will have CureVac by then.

JDD · 25-03-2021 05:52PM

RavenBea17b wrote: »

You clearly have an issue with Brits - by calling Britain's behaviour and therefore defacto British people the C word - its a company!!!

I do not agree with what AZUK are doing - but it's not a people - its a company.

Why then didn't the EU contract stipulate differently?

UK has, along with EU and others supplied materials, finances, people power to get a vaccine for COVAX as well as supply chain supplier.
Why don't you start holding the Irish political parties accountable??

What was Ireland doing for vaccine procurement - before the EC took over. I have yet to read anything about that.

Yes, AZUK plants should send some serum, but from what I have been reading UK was also down on what AZUK had promised before Christmas and continues to be.
Why don't Ireland politician grow a pair and order direct?

Look, you're right. You can't blame the entire British public for the choices of their government, or how the vaccine roll out is being covered in the newspapers.

Lets put who said what and who agreed what in what contract aside for one minute (because I haven't read the contracts so I'm not sure who should get priority)...

If the EU are producing vaccines in their factories and exporting a portion of them to the UK and the US,

And the UK and US are far ahead of the EU in terms of supply they are receiving - from both domestic factories and imports,

And the UK and US are not exporting any of their domestically made vaccines to the EU,

then that's kind of c**tish behaviour.

You can say "well that's how the world works sonny - make sure you get better lawyers next time", or "well you should have individually negotiated for your own vaccines at a higher price like the UK did, then AZ would have prioritised you like they have with the UK" and fair enough if that's your position. I just don't find it very ethical or moral, especially in circumstances where 40 year olds are being vaccinated in the UK and US, whereas medically vulnerable people are still waiting for theirs in the EU.

You can see why the EU will, ultimately, block exports.

JacksonHeightsOwn · 25-03-2021 05:54PM

Apogee wrote: »

That estimate of 'very high risk' (which I'm interpreting as Cohort 4) has increased from 150,000 to 200-230k.

17 minutes in:
https://bit.ly/3ffXAf4

Let's be honest, the general public are going to be waiting a very long time to get a vaccination at this rate.

At times like this you nearly wish you had already caught covid.... At least it would have been done and dusted

Turtwig · 25-03-2021 05:56PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

There are ways of ensuring data integrity and accuracy even on dashboards believe it or not.

Absolutely. Don't disagree there.
Just as there are ways to read data before reporting to a mass audience.

eoinbn · 25-03-2021 05:57PM

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

But Novavax isn't delivering until the second half of the year. We will have CureVac by then.

Novavax will be delivering in April/May. Curevac are Q3.

Amirani · 25-03-2021 05:57PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

There are ways of ensuring data integrity and accuracy even on dashboards believe it or not.

If your vaccination system (Salesforce) has 6 second doses loaded for Sunday, then you can put whatever data integrity and accuracy steps you want in at dashboard level, but your dashboard is still going to show 6 second doses.

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 25-03-2021 06:02PM

eoinbn wrote: »

Novavax will be delivering in April/May. Curevac are Q3.

It will be approved by then probably but deliveries don't start until later. Same with J&J for the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/novavax-publishes-positive-efficacy-data-for-its-covid-19-vaccine

"Thanks to the work of the government’s Vaccines Taskforce, the UK has secured 60 million doses of Novavax’s vaccine to be delivered in the second half of this year, if approved for use by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), who will assess whether the vaccine meets robust standards of safety, effectiveness and quality."

titan18 · 25-03-2021 06:04PM

Amirani wrote: »

There's a difference between a live dashboard that takes a feed from a vaccination system, and as such is just a reflection of the input data to that system, and whatever reports it is you build manually.

The HSE dashboard wouldn't have any human intervention after it goes through UAT and into production, so your analogy isn't appropriate.

Im a person who builds the dashboards and engineering behind reports rather than someone who manually builds reports so my analogy is appropriate really.

We don't even know if the HSE dashboard is fully automated anyway. For all we know someone uploads an Excel file with the results every day.

Apogee · 25-03-2021 06:04PM

JMR46 wrote: »

Thanks for that update. I know a 96 year old housebound woman in the West of Ireland who hasn't been vaccinated yet so hopefully they will get to her soon.
Thankfully all bar 1 of her carers have been vaccinated

A specific question about a 90+ year old housebound female in Mayo was raised by a journalist. See video from 1.41:57
https://bit.ly/3ffXAf4

Turtwig · 25-03-2021 06:06PM

Amirani wrote: »

If your vaccination system (Salesforce) has 6 second doses loaded for Sunday, then you can put whatever data integrity and accuracy steps you want in at dashboard level, but your dashboard is still going to show 6 second doses.

You could put in a flag though to have a value that deviates a long way from the anticipated value such as expected dosages administered to be checked. This is assuming they have an easy way of comparing the anticipated value to the actual one.

RavenBea17b · 25-03-2021 06:06PM

JDD wrote: »

Look, you're right. You can't blame the entire British public for the choices of their government, or how the vaccine roll out is being covered in the newspapers.

Lets put who said what and who agreed what in what contract aside for one minute (because I haven't read the contracts so I'm not sure who should get priority)...

If the EU are producing vaccines in their factories and exporting a portion of them to the UK and the US,

And the UK and US are far ahead of the EU in terms of supply they are receiving - from both domestic factories and imports,

And the UK and US are not exporting any of their domestically made vaccines to the EU,

then that's kind of c**tish behaviour.

You can say "well that's how the world works sonny - make sure you get better lawyers next time", or "well you should have individually negotiated for your own vaccines at a higher price like the UK did, then AZ would have prioritised you like they have with the UK" and fair enough if that's your position. I just don't find it very ethical or moral, especially in circumstances where 40 year olds are being vaccinated in the UK and US, whereas medically vulnerable people are still waiting for theirs in the EU.

You can see why the EU will, ultimately, block exports.

Yes, as I said, AZUK should be helping. Not sure about 30 year olds though in UK getting a jab. I do know in UK, NI that if you are suffering from medical conditions, dependant on level and type of illness - meting the criteria essentially, then you will be offered a vaccine, so yes, younger people have indeed received a vaccine, but I also understood it was on medical grounds or if you are a keyworker, such as a medic, caregiver in home facility etc.

Nor would I say a contract is a contract - that can't be bent or interpreted in a more human way. The 'provider' - in his case AZ, should play fair.

astrofool · 25-03-2021 06:06PM

Amirani wrote: »

If your vaccination system (Salesforce) has 6 second doses loaded for Sunday, then you can put whatever data integrity and accuracy steps you want in at dashboard level, but your dashboard is still going to show 6 second doses.

HSE isn't showing up to date data because it first has to validate the data
People want the data faster to try and keep the rage away
HSE makes dashboard available with live data with the caveat that each days data will take a few days to become accurate, and they make decisions only on the verified data, which will be published when verified
People take a look at live dashboard data and see inaccurate data
The rage starts again

I mean, they were asked to provide the raw data, did so and put the caveats on the data in place, and people then complain that they provided the raw data as it comes in.

People are the worst.

GT89 · 25-03-2021 06:07PM

Goalposts keep changing. First it was we must impose restrictions until we flatten the curve once the curve was flattened that became until there is a vaccine for covid, once the vaccine was approved that became until the vulnerable got the vaccine now most of the vulnerable have had their vaccine and the government are still not happy now that's become until everyone gets the vaccine. When everyone in Ireland/Europe gets the vaccine it will become until the world's entire population is vaccinated.

cameramonkey · 25-03-2021 06:10PM

astrofool wrote: »

HSE isn't showing up to date data because it first has to validate the data

People want the data faster to try and keep the rage away

HSE makes dashboard available with live data with the caveat that each days data will take a few days to become accurate, and they make decisions only on the verified data, which will be published when verified

People take a look at live dashboard data and see inaccurate data

The rage starts again

I mean, they were asked to provide the raw data, did so and put the caveats on the data in place, and people then complain that they provided the raw data as it comes in.

People are the worst.

They are a bit slow, they must be getting vaccination numbers by stage coach.
I mean how many days does it take to collate information and publish it? do they have email and computers or are they using the backs of envelopes and carrier pigeons?

astrofool · 25-03-2021 06:13PM

GT89 wrote: »

Goalposts keep changing. First it was we must impose restrictions until we flatten the curve once the curve was flattened that became until there is a vaccine for covid, once the vaccine was approved that became until the vulnerable got the vaccine now most of the vulnerable have had their vaccine and the government are still not happy now that's become until everyone gets the vaccine. When everyone in Ireland/Europe gets the vaccine it will become until the world's entire population is vaccinated.

The data keeps changing, governments of the world react to the changing data, at first it was hoped that getting the vulnerable vaccinated would also coincide with a drop in the rate of transmission and thus reduce hospital admissions, but as we've seen, infection rates are remaining steady at around ~500 per day, and hospital admission rates are also steady for the now younger cohort (who believed they aren't effected by the virus). The upside is the number of deaths in the vulnerable has been steadily declining as the vaccines take full effect there, and the resources of the health system have improved since they stopped losing as many people to getting sick.

As more people get vaccinated, the more things will open up. Proof of that is coming in with Israel, the UK shouldn't be far behind, then we'll be the same, then the rest of the world will follow over 18 months.

I hate to break it to you, but world travel will be curtailed until the world is vaccinated.

namloc1980 · 25-03-2021 06:14PM

astrofool wrote: »

HSE isn't showing up to date data because it first has to validate the data

People want the data faster to try and keep the rage away

HSE makes dashboard available with live data with the caveat that each days data will take a few days to become accurate, and they make decisions only on the verified data, which will be published when verified

People take a look at live dashboard data and see inaccurate data

The rage starts again

I mean, they were asked to provide the raw data, did so and put the caveats on the data in place, and people then complain that they provided the raw data as it comes in.

People are the worst.

Except they aren't providing live data. The dashboard itself is 2-3 days behind (currently showing Monday) so the excuses for it still not being accurate after that time are nonsense. Pure drivel.

irishlad. · 25-03-2021 06:26PM

Numbers changed around in a few cohorts

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cUZy6AMCwuA2zhtRuKK7cqMVgmhdDsGsZrFWJTkw9DY/edit#gid=1219026690

COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

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