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Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

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    #2192
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I suppose this might be the future the superhero genre faces; any hint of production issues? Cue hordes of scorned fanboys screaming "release the X cut!" with the sliding scale between "enthusiasm" and "toxic ássholes bullying people" online.


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    #2193
    Brief_Lives
    Registered Users Posts: 2,908 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives


    Brief_Lives wrote: »
    anyone able to provide what Snyder proposed for the sequel...

    sounds a bit hectic....

    https://www.indiewire.com/2021/03/justice-league-sequels-zack-snyder-1234625242/


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    #2194
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    Agent Coulson wrote: »
    WB say they won't be releasing the Ayer cut of Suicide Squad and in doing so are saying there is an Ayer cut.

    There was an interview with Ayer a good while after the film came out where he said he had originally planned Steppenwolf to be the film's actual villain, but then got that taken off the table because Snyder wanted Steppenwolf for JL. He didn't elaborate on how far along the production was at that point - the impression I got was "far enough to make reworking the script tricky, but not so far as to film anything".

    I could be wrong, but between the tonal mismatch and editing mess the theatrical release already had (plus Ayer at the helm all the way through) it's hard to see an equivalent case to make for the Ayer Cut, although if WB think there's money to be made from it then all bets are off.


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    #2195
    titan18
    Registered Users Posts: 11,933 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    ManOfMystery wrote: »
    It's a shame, as the Marvel model works - whether WB like it or not. These characters in the comics were never all standalone, you always had the teams like X-men and Avengers, then standalone titles where they all got together. It's those dynamics as an ensemble that elevated the comics and characters to something else.

    Snyder's ensemble work may not have been for everyone, but regardless of that there is a hunger out there to see the characters together and bouncing off each other. Joker was great and I'm sure Matt Reeves' take on Batman will be brilliant (going by his previous work), but I also feel like WB are missing a huge beat by only going down the solo film route.

    I suppose the one thing for the solo film route is you can set completely different tones between them. Something like Batman can go multiple different ways and some of those wouldn't gel well when he's teaming up with someone like Superman or Martian Manhunter in a Justice League film. Like I couldn't see Nolan's Batman in a Justice League film. Levels of power between him and Superman are just too big.

    I'd nearly be half ok of just writing Batman out of Justice League films, and having the team ups just be Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman etc. Can be a universe where Batman doesn't exist as his parents were never murdered or something so he's just Bruce Wayne. Then have a separate universe for Batman films where the likes of Superman don't exist, and you get some of the more non superpowered people like Batman, Deathstroke, Joker etc.


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    #2196
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,158 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    pixelburp wrote: »
    I suppose this might be the future the superhero genre faces; any hint of production issues? Cue hordes of scorned fanboys screaming "release the X cut!" with the sliding scale between "enthusiasm" and "toxic ássholes bullying people" online.

    Well to be fair how many people were complaining back in the day about what the likes of WB, Fox and Sony were doing to their beloved comic book characters, to which they were laughed at by said studios.

    It's good that the power dynamic has changed (slightly) in my opinion, but there will obviously need to be a solid foundation that a "movement" can build upon, case in point here where those "production issues" you mention was arguably the worst production sh1tshow Hollywood has seen in decades.

    People will only be able to fight when something wrong has been done. Other than that, fans of the genre have rolled with the punches of sh1t film after sh1t film for a long time. I don't see how that will change.


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    #2197
    ManOfMystery
    Registered Users Posts: 2,394 ✭✭✭ManOfMystery


    titan18 wrote: »
    I suppose the one thing for the solo film route is you can set completely different tones between them. Something like Batman can go multiple different ways and some of those wouldn't gel well when he's teaming up with someone like Superman or Martian Manhunter in a Justice League film. Like I couldn't see Nolan's Batman in a Justice League film. Levels of power between him and Superman are just too big.

    I guess this is the pros and cons of it, when you have an ensemble universe it also takes more of an effort for the other Directors involved to try and match the characterisations and tones used. You can't really have Wonder Woman in a solo film looking and behaving totally different to the ensemble work or it creates a contuinuity headache, but a lot of Directors don't like not having that freedom to mould the character as they see fit. Somehow Marvel have managed it (for the most part) but I think that's very much down to Kevin Feige presiding over it all from day one and making sure consistency is maintained, and working with Directors who are fully on board with this.

    With that said, they took Thor a bit left-field in Ragnarok so it's not outside the realms of possibility if handled correctly.


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    #2198
    Agent Coulson
    Registered Users Posts: 60,344 ✭✭✭✭Agent Coulson


    Fisher tweeting again.

    https://twitter.com/ray8fisher/status/1374165899079528448?s=20


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    #2199
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    The White Wolf wrote: »
    Well to be fair how many people were complaining back in the day about what the likes of WB, Fox and Sony were doing to their beloved comic book characters, to which they were laughed at by said studios.

    It's good that the power dynamic has changed (slightly) in my opinion, but there will obviously need to be a solid foundation that a "movement" can build upon, case in point here where those "production issues" you mention was arguably the worst production sh1tshow Hollywood has seen in decades.

    People will only be able to fight when something wrong has been done. Other than that, fans of the genre have rolled with the punches of sh1t film after sh1t film for a long time. I don't see how that will change.

    Oh sure I do agree with the sentiment of fans taking back a degree of "power" with these properties, but like any grassroots movement I'd just be cautious about the vocal, toxic and just plain rabid corners feeling emboldened by what might be read as hostility rewarded. Or taking over the narrative that a certain tactic pays off. It wasn't the majority of those hashtag "activists", but you know yourself, the worst always takes over the publicity with these things.


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    #2200
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,158 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    The comments under his tweets are gas, basically a load of middle aged white lads telling him he's a nobody and how they know better.


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    #2201
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    somethimes ignorance is bliss, I only know Justice League because they mentioned it a lot on Big Bang Theory and didnt know that there was a curfuffle about this version :D

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #2202
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Oh sure I do agree with the sentiment of fans taking back a degree of "power" with these properties, but like any grassroots movement I'd just be cautious about the vocal, toxic and just plain rabid corners feeling emboldened by what might be read as hostility rewarded. Or taking over the narrative that a certain tactic pays off. It wasn't the majority of those hashtag "activists", but you know yourself, the worst always takes over the publicity with these things.

    I'm also cautious about labelling them as grassroots. There's too much money at stake: the studios astroturf the heck out of online discussion.


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    #2203
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,129 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Studio interference and decision making is often terrible, but the loudest fans setting the creative agenda is a equally bad idea. Fans by their nature tend to just want more of the same, and are incredibly hostile towards genuinely fresh or new takes (even if they are eventually won over). Not to mention the sheer bullying and harassment that comes in such communities at their worst.

    I think in this case the outcome was ultimately positive for most people involved (apart from Joss Whedon). But a minority of loud fans suddenly feeling ‘empowered’ sets off all sorts of alarm bells. Hell, you’re already seeing in this case this version of Justice League not being ‘enough’ for its most vocal proponents - they need more, and a new fight. But then again the sheer force of the fan campaign ultimately blew up beyond any proportion when the end product is just another superhero movie - in a way, the thrill of the fight is always going to be more of a motivator than the actual end product.


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    #2204
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,158 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    At the end of the day it should come down to a business decision.

    For all the "goodwill" shown by AT&T/HBO Max towards the fans, it all came down to the financials and whether they thought it was going to be a profitable gamble.

    Continuing or not continuing with Snyder will come down to the same criteria. From what I've read it's done extremely well for HBO Max but whether that translates into giving Snyder another hefty budget I am sceptical of.


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    #2205
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    there is the argument that customers tell you what business you are in. I remember hearing Scott Adams talk about Dilbert, that originally it was only partially set in an office but Dilbert fans just wanted the cartoon to be office based, he listened to the fans and it became a mad success.
    its all going to come back to $$$ in the end

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #2206
    titan18
    Registered Users Posts: 11,933 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    The White Wolf wrote: »
    The comments under his tweets are gas, basically a load of middle aged white lads telling him he's a nobody and how they know better.

    Tbf does anyone want to watch a Justice League film with Cyborg at the center of it. He's not Batman, Superman or even Wonder Woman. He's always going to be a side piece in a JL film. He's probably the least recognisable actor or superhero.


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    #2207
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Depending on what comic, or series we're talking about, Cyborg isn't even part of the Justice League anyway, but the Titans or Doom Patrol as we see in the DC show. I'd have had picked Martian Manhunter myself before Cyborg, and with his presence in Supergirl would have arguably been a more widely known character than Cyborg to begin with. Maybe Stone's background as a football player was figured a "ground level" hero, who knows. Always struck a very generic character, with a generic design, to go along with the generic hero name.


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    #2208
    The White Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 5,158 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    titan18 wrote: »
    Tbf does anyone want to watch a Justice League film with Cyborg at the center of it. He's not Batman, Superman or even Wonder Woman. He's always going to be a side piece in a JL film. He's probably the least recognisable actor or superhero.

    I thought the SC did a pretty good job on Cyborg, it made me actually want to see a solo film. I think him being the heart is over egged anyway, it's more him and Superman together with Whedon cutting him out for time in the TC.

    My point was more to do with just have defensive Americans have become on the question of race. If you check Twitter or follow certain outlets the abuse towards Fisher is always the same, with people being really horrible towards him. Even if you he's spoofing it's totally out there of order the abuse he's got.


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    #2209
    ManOfMystery
    Registered Users Posts: 2,394 ✭✭✭ManOfMystery


    johnny_ultimate wrote: »
    Studio interference and decision making is often terrible, but the loudest fans setting the creative agenda is a equally bad idea. Fans by their nature tend to just want more of the same, and are incredibly hostile towards genuinely fresh or new takes (even if they are eventually won over). Not to mention the sheer bullying and harassment that comes in such communities at their worst.

    Amen to this. If the more hardcore fans had their way, we'd never have had Michael Keaton as Batman or Heath Ledger's performance as Joker. Both had backlash; Keaton in particular, I think something like 50,000 letters of protest reached WB about his casting.


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    #2210
    kerplun k
    Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭kerplun k


    DC/WB are absolutely right to put their foot down on this. It was the tragic circumstances and unique environment that allowed ZS to have the opportunity to revisit and complete his JL. It’s a good news story that came after a very difficult period, but under no circumstances should WB/DC allow a minority group of p1ssy disgruntled fans dictate what direction they should go in.


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    #2211
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    kerplun k wrote: »
    DC/WB are absolutely right to put their foot down on this. It was the tragic circumstances and unique environment that allowed ZS to have the opportunity to revisit and complete his JL. It’s a good news story that came after a very difficult period, but under no circumstances should WB/DC allow a minority group of p1ssy disgruntled fans dictate what direction they should go in.

    Arguably, WB should never have chopped the film up in the first place, causing this Cut to become a thing: I don't know how much was in the can but AFAIK there was enough that the theatrical cut should have been a Synder cut anyway. Whedon was parachuted in inject - frankly - terrible jokes and extra scenes, at the expense of actually useful ones like The Flash saving Iris West. But apparently Barry Allen rambling about brunch was deemed a better choice?

    IMO there WAS a 2-3 hour cut readily available to WB but instead there was something a little opportunistic and vulgar in using personal tragedy to course-correct a film that didn't really need it; inserting terrible scenes in place of perfectly good ones


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    #2212
    Lithium93_
    Registered Users Posts: 48,990 ✭✭✭✭Lithium93_


    The film was in post production when the Snyder's had to step away from it in March 2017 - so it was as good as in the can. Until Whedon came along.


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    #2213
    SMC92Ian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭SMC92Ian


    Why does every single DCEU or Snyder fan feel the need to always bring up Marvel in every single discussion of this film?


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    #2214
    ManOfMystery
    Registered Users Posts: 2,394 ✭✭✭ManOfMystery


    SMC92Ian wrote: »
    Why does every single DCEU or Snyder fan feel the need to always bring up Marvel in every single discussion of this film?

    Films and filmmaking approaches will always be compared. When you've got two behemoths like DC and Marvel and they're pretty much the monopolies when it comes to superhero movies, it's hard not to study the two approaches and contrast them.


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    #2215
    kerplun k
    Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭kerplun k


    I think people are being a little bit harsh on WB/Whedon. They had a massive tent pole on their hands that they needed to get out. Whedon was brought in to do a job, a job he done to the best of his ability. Snyder has a very distinctive style so anyone coming in was always going to struggle to maintain that style and continuity, even in post production, and of course a creative type like Whedon was always going to want to put his own spin on it. It was a perfect storm that unfortunately resulted in a car crash. There was some bad decisions at the time, but that happens, the people who made those decisions have been called out, Extenuating circumstances gave Snyder the opportunity to finish what he started, he got his moment. It’s a good ending and I think Snyder and some of the fans need to move on now.


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    #2216
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    SMC92Ian wrote: »
    Why does every single DCEU or Snyder fan feel the need to always bring up Marvel in every single discussion of this film?

    Why do you presume they're fans?

    And they're the two biggest comic corporations on the planet, both releasing movie adaptations of their biggest IPs at the same time, during a noted golden era of superhero media content; with one of them often reacting to the others'success ... ... why WOULDN'T they be compared?


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    #2217
    El Duda
    Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭El Duda


    SMC92Ian wrote: »
    Why does every single DCEU or Snyder fan feel the need to always bring up Marvel in every single discussion of this film?

    It's important to have an example of something that has been brilliantly executed (MCU) when comparing it to something that is an embarrassing mess (DCEU)

    DC fans are bitterly envious of Marvel to their very core, so of course they have to try and diminish its towering stance above DC at every opportunity.


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    #2218
    Fysh
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 11,016 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    El Duda wrote: »
    It's important to have an example of something that has been brilliantly executed (MCU) when comparing it to something that is an embarrassing mess (DCEU)

    DC fans are bitterly envious of Marvel to their very core, so of course they have to try and diminish its towering stance above DC at every opportunity.

    I mean, if you want to talk about comparisons of brilliant vs bad executions in the context of the Justice League, I'd personally say that the Dini/Timmverse of animated series is the place to go. Justice League was a good cartoon, and Justice League Unlimited was great.

    Sadly the DCAU has also been on the decline recently, and the quality of animation seems to be trending downward.


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    #2219
    Lithium93_
    Registered Users Posts: 48,990 ✭✭✭✭Lithium93_


    kerplun k wrote: »
    I think people are being a little bit harsh on WB/Whedon. They had a massive tent pole on their hands that they needed to get out. Whedon was brought in to do a job, a job he done to the best of his ability. Snyder has a very distinctive style so anyone coming in was always going to struggle to maintain that style and continuity, even in post production, and of course a creative type like Whedon was always going to want to put his own spin on it. It was a perfect storm that unfortunately resulted in a car crash. There was some bad decisions at the time, but that happens, the people who made those decisions have been called out, Extenuating circumstances gave Snyder the opportunity to finish what he stated, he got his moment. It’s a good ending and I think Snyder and some of the fans need to move on now.

    I think Snyder has more or less moved on, remember reading an interview if asked would he come back to do the sequel IF Warner greenlit it, gave the diplomatic answer of never say never, sort of leaving the onus on Warner Bros. Which going by this interview https://variety.com/2021/film/news/zack-snyder-justice-league-suicide-squad-ray-fisher-warnermedia-1234935580/ - seems Warners too have moved on.


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    #2220
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Watched 2 hours of it and taking a break this movie is awesome but all the slow mo’s are meh!


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    #2221
    steve_r
    Registered Users Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭steve_r


    Bit of a long post but bear with me….

    Finished this last night and enjoyed it (overlong and a good few flaws) but like many already have said, I’ve glad this saw the light of day in the tragic circumstances.

    I’ve been reading a lot about the differences between the two versions, and the material removed from the original. The most telling for me was the “jokes” in the original – two main examples being Bruce making a joke when he meets Aquaman for the first time and Aquaman sitting on the lasso. Neither of two jokes worked in the original, they weren’t particularly funny and they detracted from the characters.

    The increased runtime allowed him to develop out characters like Cyborg which really added to the whole experience. I understand the arguments made about the running time, and why Cyborg and his family were pared back in the theatrical release, but like a lot of this in the 2017 release, it just ended up with a shabby end result.

    The most interesting part for me was the Knightmare segment at the end. It was jarring to see it included there, and maybe should have been a bonus feature. However, I think the concept of a destroyed world, with Superman as the villain and the heroes on the run would be very interesting to see. Batman being responsible for the death of Lois Lane, and working with Joker would have been something original and well worth exploring.

    (The point has been raised a few times about the power difference between Batman and Superman. The Marvel heroes are more balanced so its easier for them to manage the constraints this puts on the story. I think the dystopian future angle would be a way to manage that issue, and be able to present a story where they can both feature strongly, despite the power gap. )

    I would have liked to see the DCEU try something like this, and really go a different direction to the existing (MCU) format. I find villains like Darkseid, Thanos, Apocolyse dull and uninteresting, and having Superman as the villain with the personal connection over the death of Lois could have made for a very compelling story. I know Synder wants Darkseid as the main villain though, so I’ll dock points for that.

    I’m no means a Synder fanboy and the preoccupation with Superheroes as gods/slow motion/grim Superman are grating. However he does have his own vision, and he is brave/stubborn enough to take the flak for that approach. There has been a huge amount of superhero films over the last few years, and most of them have played it relatively safe with storytelling choices, use of humour etc so I think it’s a good thing to see a story told where someone is willing to create a world which is “at odds” with how some people view the characters.

    I hope people who read this don’t think I am saying the film is amazing and has no flaws, far from it. The thing I love most about the underlying comics is their ability to explore different ideas (e.g what if Batman is jaded and Superman is a government stooge, like Dark Knight Returns). I’d rather see film makers take risks, and try something different, rather than stick to a well-worn formula.


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