Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward

The White Wolf · 21-03-2021 8:55pm

Drumpot wrote: »

I had to look up what edgelord was :pac:

I wasnt trying to be edgy or insulting, just saying things as I see them but Let me address the statement that seems to of upset some of you.

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you Drum pot.

Mark Hamill · 21-03-2021 9:06pm

Drumpot wrote: »

SMC92Ian wrote: »

So the DCEU only failed because Marvel brainwashed me and that's why I didn't fawn over Snyder?

Where did I say that?

Cough

Drumpot wrote: »

It’s a shame that mainstream audiences have been effectively groomed by Marvel in what to expect from a mainstream superhero movie.

ThePott · 21-03-2021 9:10pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmQj70seACI

Mark Hamill · 21-03-2021 9:22pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

The edgelord insults are quite tedious and one of many stupid buzz words used by people on the internet to provoke an argument.

I don't see anything particularly edgy about what Snyder is doing other than making a big deal out of profanity, but Americans as a whole have a big issue over that and isn't just a teenage thing. Go on to any American forum and see how they infract and warn people for manipulating the censor feature to see this.

The edgelord insult comes about because Snyder is trying to do edgy, but is so inept that it just comes across as like what a 14 year old thinks of as being edgy and adult :
Colourful movies are kiddy, so his films are as desaturated as possible (there were whole scenes in JL that I thought were in black and white, they were so desaturated).
Levity and jokes are childish, so his characters almost only talk in growls, whispers or flat exposition.
Every character is as violent as possible, even when it makes no sense (he was guilty of this as far back as Watchmen) and he never even acknowledges when characters are more violent then would be expected to be. (I have no problem with having a Superman or Batman kill, but it is so out of the norm for those characters that it needs proper setup and explanation).
He is in love with the whole "Superheroes are gods and that's so hard for them" but thinks that there is nothing wrong with them killing, which begs the question, what's wrong with being a god if you aren't even hamstrung by the ideal of not killing?

brianregan09 · 21-03-2021 9:34pm

I see an awful lot of talk here about if this happened , that happened etc

DCEU would have taken off if the movies weren't terribly inconsistent , if anything there more comparable to the last SW trilogy than any of the MCU , in that a small bit of joined together thinking and patience would have saved a lot of money for Warner Brothers who were 100% trying to run before they could walk

MOR316 · 21-03-2021 9:42pm

Watched it.

It's alright. Much better than the first. Far too many things don't make sense though.

Also, Batman is moron in this. Comes across as the weakest yet, he's far from it in the comics and cartoons

jface187 · 21-03-2021 9:49pm

To your point, the Dark Knight made a lot of money for WB. To them, it was because it was dark and gritty and this was the way to go with superheroes. Green Lantern had bombed for them around this time and they were desperate to get there superhero films up and running.

To try to put superman into the Nolan mould, without Nolan to guide it and it not being the style superman needed. WB then say how well Marvel's connected universe was doing and said let's do that.

So BVS becomes there launchpad for everything. In the midst of all this, you have Zack desperate to being the Injustice/Arkham video games to the big screen. Who's all in on dark and gritty and having a hundred things going on at once.

Then BVS gets a mixed reaction so everything has to be light and funny.
The Justice League 2017 cut is a mess and pleased no one. I wasn't mad about MOS or BVS but I rather have this Synder Cut then the one we got.
It is better but still not good by any means. It also would not have been four hours. If the Synder cut was out in 2017 I think they could get it down to 2.30-45 minutes, which might have made it even better.

Penn · 21-03-2021 9:53pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The edgelord insult comes about because Snyder is trying to do edgy, but is so inept that it just comes across as like what a 14 year old thinks of as being edgy and adult :
Colourful movies are kiddy, so his films are as desaturated as possible (there were whole scenes in JL that I thought were in black and white, they were so desaturated).
Levity and jokes are childish, so his characters almost only talk in growls, whispers or flat exposition.
Every character is as violent as possible, even when it makes no sense (he was guilty of this as far back as Watchmen) and he never even acknowledges when characters are more violent then would be expected to be. (I have no problem with having a Superman or Batman kill, but it is so out of the norm for those characters that it needs proper setup and explanation).
He is in love with the whole "Superheroes are gods and that's so hard for them" but thinks that there is nothing wrong with them killing, which begs the question, what's wrong with being a god if you aren't even hamstrung by the ideal of not killing?

See for me, I don't mind most of that. It's just the execution of it. The idea behind the Martha connection was fine, the implementation of it was clunky and laughable. The idea of them being gods among men is fine, but it was constantly rammed down the audience's throats (especially in BvS). The violence/killing of henchmen I can accept in general, but the slow-mo glorification of it can be OTT. The lack of jokes is fine, but damn give us some reason to actually root for the characters (BvS had Batman being an asshole and Superman being a mopey prick, looking so burdened by having to save people). And his sets and enemies are just so dark, metallic and grey the whole time that they're just bland.

Again, the highs of Snyder's films are incredible, and some of his visuals and concepts are insanely brilliant. But there are significant issues with his movies and style.

Slydice · 21-03-2021 9:58pm

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GeekVibesNation/status/1373415796215578628

Ah! I was wondering about the pregnancy kit.

CramCycle · 21-03-2021 10:10pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Can we please move past this nonsense that Marvel have brainwashed audiences?
Joker, an R-Rated super serious drama, made the same money as Aquaman (both ~1.1billion), more than Wonder Woman (~$830million) and about 3 times what Shazam did (~$366million).
What do all those films actually have in common? Coherent and consistent stories, directing, acting and dialogue. All stuff Snyder omits in favour of teenage edgelord darkness.

Shazam was for kids and grand as a kids movie and even their advertising reflected this. I only seen it recently, it is aimed at 7yo's and is on par with something my daughter would have watched on Nic years ago. Personally I must have missed the positive reviews of Aquaman, I certainly didn't find it great but I suppose we all live in our own social bubble. Wonder Woman was OK but it was the same as Captain America in tone and content (which also was an OK movie). I haven't seen Joker yet so there is something for next weekend.

SMC92Ian wrote: »

It wasn't the terrible writing and dialogue? The sub standard CGI? The rushed character development or random acts? Martha, Martha? Superman moaning 24/7? Batman and Superman fighting for NO REASON?
.......
Also as a "marvel fanboy" I have yet to watch GOTG2, Black Panther and a few others as us Marvel lot just don't accept everything. A lot of us have issues with Marvel but they do way many good things you can over look the bad. DCEU does too many glaring bad things you can't overlook.

To be fair, the CGI in Black Panther was the worst CGI out of any Marvel movie so far, they have the odd hiccup hear and there but Black Panther was pretty awful by Marvel standards and equivalent to Justice League IMO. A pity as it seemed an OK movie but it ws really distracting.

I will say I did like Shazam as a Zac Levi fan and it actually had decent characters and a story. Aquaman and WW I turned off half way through as I found them boring. I walked out of Birds of Prey. WW84 I never bothered to watch even though I have it. SS is the worst film I've seen.

WW84 may be the worst thing I have not seen, I managed about 20 minutes. The only time I have walked on a movie that quickly before was I think Twilight. It was raining and I had an Unlimited card so ran into sit anywhere while waiting for friends to arrive so I thought it would waste time. WW84 is literally 2nd to Twilight in the worst movie I have ever set eyes on, and I have seen some awful sh1t in my day.

Tony EH · 21-03-2021 10:53pm

Are people still going on about the "Martha" thing?

I only watched 'Batman vs Superman' last night and the "Martha" thing plays out fine. It's the one word that stops an unreasonably blind Batman, who in the context of the film's story is middle aged, tired, frustrated and angry. He's been fighting a losing battle in Gotham on his own for two decades. All of a sudden this lot show up from feckin space and start wrecking the gaff. He simply sees Superman as an alien, part of the same crowd that caused so much destruction in Metropolis just a short time before. He doesn't trust Superman and, in fairness, Superman has given him little to trust.

The utterance of "Martha" from Superman makes Batman realise that this "thing" has a mother. A mother who's name was ironically the same as his own, which snaps Bruce out of the singular track that he's been on since the beginning of the movie. A track that is highlighted and warned against by Alfred, who spends most of the film scolding Bruce about the decisions he's making. Decisions that are going against the 20 years of fighting he's done in Gotham.

If anything what needed to be done better was what happened in the immediate aftermath of "Martha". But given the fact that Luthor's monster had just started fucking shit up, there wasn't any time for some Batty reflection and contemplation on just how foolish he'd been. So it comes across as a bit well,

Bats - "Sorry I tried to kill you there Supes but let's team up and bash this bugger in the port area yeh?"
Supes - "Oh go on then"
Bats - "Cool bro"

It's a little awkward, but definitely nothing that's deserved the crazy outpourings from the interweb that it got.

If anything the biggest problems with Snyder's superhero universe is that Superman has never heard of Batman despite Gotham and Metropolis being just across the bay from one another! That's probably the dumbest thing in the whole trilogy of movies so far.

Penn · 21-03-2021 11:31pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Are people still going on about the "Martha" thing?

I only watched 'Batman vs Superman' last night and the "Martha" thing plays out fine. It's the one word that stops an unreasonably blind Batman, who in the context of the film's story is middle aged, tired, frustrated and angry. He's been fighting a losing battle in Gotham on his own for two decades. All of a sudden this lot show up from feckin space and start wrecking the gaff. He simply sees Superman as an alien, part of the same crowd that caused so much destruction in Metropolis just a short time before. He doesn't trust Superman and, in fairness, Superman has given him little to trust.

The utterance of "Martha" from Superman makes Batman realise that this "thing" has a mother. A mother who's name was ironically the same as his own, which snaps Bruce out of the singular track that he's been on since the beginning of the movie. A track that is highlighted and warned against by Alfred, who spends most of the film scolding Bruce about the decisions he's making. Decisions that are going against the 20 years of fighting he's done in Gotham.

If anything what needed to be done better was what happened in the immediate aftermath of "Martha". But given the fact that Luthor's monster had just started fucking shit up, there wasn't any time for some Batty reflection and contemplation on just how foolish he'd been. So it comes across as a bit well,

Bats - "Sorry I tried to kill you there Supes but let's team up and bash this bugger in the port area yeh?"
Supes - "Oh go on then"
Bats - "Cool bro"

It's a little awkward, but definitely nothing that's deserved the crazy outpourings from the interweb that it got.

If anything the biggest problems with Snyder's superhero universe is that Superman has never heard of Batman despite Gotham and Metropolis being just across the bay from one another! That's probably the dumbest thing in the whole trilogy of movies so far.

The reason the Martha thing doesn't work is that if their mothers didn't have the exact same name, Batman likely still would have killed Superman, which is based on a monumental coincidence. But more than that, Superman, without knowing Bruce's mother's name was also Martha, has no reason to say what he said. Superman first says "You're letting him kill Martha!", then when that actually does give him a bit of a reprieve and gets Batman's attention, he says "Find him... Save Martha!"

Who is "him"? How is Batman supposed to know who Martha is? Superman has 2 seconds before Batman kills him and wants Batman to at least try to save his mother after he kills him, and decides to give no useful information at all.

Martha is the one word that could stop Batman in his tracks, but it's also the dumbest thing Superman could have said in that moment.

They could easily have written it that Superman had already thrown in a few lines of "Luthor has my mother" or similar during the fight, with Batman ignoring him. Then the "You're letting him kill Martha" line would make sense, and at that point Batman could relate it to his own mother. Even when Superman lands in front of Batman just before their fight, he says nothing of value and just keeps walking into Batman's traps.

That's personally my issue with it. It's simply the execution of it, and emblematic of one of Snyder's biggest issues. He can come up with these great moments and ideas, but the lead up to them can often make them come across really badly.

Tony EH · 22-03-2021 12:26am

Penn wrote: »

The reason the Martha thing doesn't work is that if their mothers didn't have the exact same name, Batman likely still would have killed Superman, which is based on a monumental coincidence.

So what? It's the coincidence that snaps Batman out of his one tracked thought process about Superman that he's had up to that point. Superman is now no longer just an alien to Batman, but someone with a mother. Now he's a man, not just a thing from another world who's been part of the destruction of much of Metropolis which is how Bruce has been viewing him.

Penn wrote: »

But more than that, Superman, without knowing Bruce's mother's name was also Martha, has no reason to say what he said.

Of course he does. Superman's mother...ahem, Martha...is about to get fried by Luthor's henchmen. Superman, at this point, is looking at death so he implores Batman to save his mother in a last desperate plea. It's a task he himself has failed to do. He has a perfect reason to mention it.

Penn wrote: »

Superman first says "You're letting him kill Martha!", then when that actually does give him a bit of a reprieve and gets Batman's attention, he says "Find him... Save Martha!"

Who is "him"? How is Batman supposed to know who Martha is? Superman has 2 seconds before Batman kills him and wants Batman to at least try to save his mother after he kills him, and decides to give no useful information at all.

None of that matters. The important word is "Martha".

Penn wrote: »

Martha is the one word that could stop Batman in his tracks, but it's also the dumbest thing Superman could have said in that moment.

Except it's not, as explained above. Superman has accepted his defeat. He's been weakened by Batman's use of Kryptonite and is looking down the shaft of a Kryptonite spear that's about to do him in. He's failed to save his mother and appeals to Batman's better nature in the hopes that he has one.

Penn wrote: »

They could easily have written it that Superman had already thrown in a few lines of "Luthor has my mother" or similar during the fight, with Batman ignoring him.

That wouldn't work in the slightest. It would only serve to make Batman look even more unreasonable than he already is. In fact, it would be even less convincing than how it played out in the movie as it does now.

"I have a mum"

"Big feckin deal"

"She's called Martha!

"Hey...that's just like my mum!!!"

The problem with 'Batman vs Superman' is not Martha or any of the other nonsense that's been levelled at it. It's the fact that there's a conflict at all between two superheroes the likes of which have been well and truly established in the public consciousness for decades. It's difficult to get ones head around the possibility of these two fighting in the first place, but you have to if you are to buy into the movie.

And it's a stupid comic book movie. A movie were a man can fly and a rich man dresses up as a bat in a trilogy where space aliens and interdimensional beings are attacking earth. People complaining about the fact that Superman called his mother by her first name just sounds kinda ridiculous when everything else is taken into account.

It's a film series with Wonder Woman in it for gods sake. One of the dumbest creations ever to come out of anyone's head.

expectationlost · 22-03-2021 1:55am

what did they get flashes running style from?

Milanative · 22-03-2021 2:36am

Jeez some mental gymnastics on here to try and convince themselves it was good, far too long, the extra scenes add very little to what was already there, plot holes galore and that "knightmare" scene was utterly atrocious I've genuinely not heard worse dialogue in a film

MOR316 · 22-03-2021 3:59am

Milanative wrote: »

Jeez some mental gymnastics on here to try and convince themselves it was good, far too long, the extra scenes add very little to what was already there, plot holes galore and that "knightmare" scene was utterly atrocious I've genuinely not heard worse dialogue in a film

I kinda like the Knightmare scene but I agree, the dialogue in that scene was abysmal, particularly from The Joker (Leto is terrible, I'm sorry! His "laugh" is ridiculous!"

Also, Mera saying she wants revenge for Superman killing Aquaman, even though it was Darkseid who killed him in the visions.
Deathstroke's wife took his eye, not Batman (I know, I'm being picky there)
Affleck looked like he didn't want to be there at all. The scene where he jumps down to talk to Gordan, made me cringe!
What was the point of Martian Manhunter talking to Lois Lane?

The plus points for me were;
- Cyborg! I feel he could have a great solo movie
- Aquaman was better in this version. Was beyond cringe in the first.
- Nowhere near as much cheese.

Penn · 22-03-2021 9:02am

Tony EH wrote: »

So what? It's the coincidence that snaps Batman out of his one tracked thought process about Superman that he's had up to that point. Superman is now no longer just an alien to Batman, but someone with a mother. Now he's a man, not just a thing from another world who's been part of the destruction of much of Metropolis which is how Bruce has been viewing him.

Of course he does. Superman's mother...ahem, Martha...is about to get fried by Luthor's henchmen. Superman, at this point, is looking at death so he implores Batman to save his mother in a last desperate plea. It's a task he himself has failed to do. He has a perfect reason to mention it.

None of that matters. The important word is "Martha".

Except it's not, as explained above. Superman has accepted his defeat. He's been weakened by Batman's use of Kryptonite and is looking down the shaft of a Kryptonite spear that's about to do him in. He's failed to save his mother and appeals to Batman's better nature in the hopes that he has one.

That wouldn't work in the slightest. It would only serve to make Batman look even more unreasonable than he already is. In fact, it would be even less convincing than how it played out in the movie as it does now.

"I have a mum"

"Big feckin deal"

"She's called Martha!

"Hey...that's just like my mum!!!"

The problem with 'Batman vs Superman' is not Martha or any of the other nonsense that's been levelled at it. It's the fact that there's a conflict at all between two superheroes the likes of which have been well and truly established in the public consciousness for decades. It's difficult to get ones head around the possibility of these two fighting in the first place, but you have to if you are to buy into the movie.

And it's a stupid comic book movie. A movie were a man can fly and a rich man dresses up as a bat in a trilogy where space aliens and interdimensional beings are attacking earth. People complaining about the fact that Superman called his mother by her first name just sounds kinda ridiculous when everything else is taken into account.

It's a film series with Wonder Woman in it for gods sake. One of the dumbest creations ever to come out of anyone's head.

Batman knew Superman had a mother. He even says during the fight:

Bruce Wayne/Batman: I bet your parents told you you were special. That you were put here for a reason, that you mean something. But I was taught something different, as my parents died in a gutter for no reason.

Batman knew Superman had a mother. He had no reason to assume he didn't, alien or not. Its only the coincidence of her name being Martha too and the idea of "Save Martha" that snaps him out of it. But there's no reason for Superman to have said her name because with what could have been his final words he had provided no context or useful information whatsoever as to who Martha is or who "him" was referring to. Even in a panicked moment of desperation he'd be more inclined to say "Save my mother" or Mom etc.

There's probably no point arguing it all again. I'm just saying that yes, people do still have an issue with that scene. Everyone gets the idea behind it, but it was done in an incredibly ham-fisted and clunky manner.

Penn · 22-03-2021 9:10am

expectationlost wrote: »

what did they get flashes running style from?

I'm conflicted on it. When shot from afar it looks pretty good, like he's completely just flowing through the air. When it's up close though, it looks fairly ridiculous.

The White Wolf · 22-03-2021 10:19am

MOR316 wrote: »

Watched it.

It's alright. Much better than the first. Far too many things don't make sense though.

Also, Batman is moron in this. Comes across as the weakest yet, he's far from it in the comics and cartoons

I don't get the love for Batffleck to be honest. He COULD have been great but I just didn't see enough about him to say it was a fantastic portrayal. Like I'd still have Bale over him, but maybe because Bale had the benefit of a 3 film wonderfully consistent arc and Affleck didn't.

Mind you I did see little things that I loved about Battfleck, for example the expression on his face as Superman dies at the beginning of ZSJL, and also his scene with Leto. I'd be happy to see more of him in a standalone film to see what he can really do.

Mark Hamill · 22-03-2021 10:37am

Penn wrote: »

See for me, I don't mind most of that. It's just the execution of it. The idea behind the Martha connection was fine, the implementation of it was clunky and laughable. The idea of them being gods among men is fine, but it was constantly rammed down the audience's throats (especially in BvS). The violence/killing of henchmen I can accept in general, but the slow-mo glorification of it can be OTT. The lack of jokes is fine, but damn give us some reason to actually root for the characters (BvS had Batman being an asshole and Superman being a mopey prick, looking so burdened by having to save people). And his sets and enemies are just so dark, metallic and grey the whole time that they're just bland.

Again, the highs of Snyder's films are incredible, and some of his visuals and concepts are insanely brilliant. But there are significant issues with his movies and style.

I don't actually disagree with you. I don't mind the idea of someone trying any of the fundamental ideas that Snyder was aiming for, it's just that his execution was laughably bad.

pixelburp · 22-03-2021 11:12am

I know we go to this this well a lot, as Drumpot is the films biggest fan around here :pac: ... but ...

For me, the fundamental irritation in "Martha!" was the fight being predicated on its two characters not talking to each other for 30 seconds. Probably misremembering, but Superman only had to say to Bruce "wait, I'm being blackmailed by Luther, and my mum Martha is leverage", or something to that effect. The fight didn't need to happen by the machinations of the written plot. Yes yes, Clark was upset cos mum was in peril, and Bruce had his "1% chance being absolute certainty" bonkers rationale; the story tried to get the two to opposite corners, but in essence the Big Fight was kinda pointless. It looked cool, no doubt (and the moment where Supes slowly regained his strength as Batman punched him WAS cool), but had no actual tether to each character.

If "Save Martha!" was all that was needed to stop things, you'd hope a deleted scene was the two men getting coffee, to bury their respective embarrassment and joke about how idiotic they must have seemed

The Dark Knight Returns, the obvious inspiration behind the dust up, at least went out of its way to set the fight up as legitimate. Superman by then was a stooge of the government, Batman a dangerous vigilante and anarchist. Why BvS simply didn't lift this, Supes briefly becoming a unilateral or corrupted figure, was weird. Instead we got this overcomplicated-but-kinda-simple plot, trying to marry the iconography of the above, Luthor being the puppet master, with the Death of Superman, AND hinting Darkseid. There was too much going on.

And to again invoke Marvel, Civil War set up a genuine ideological split between its heroes -, mixed with personal history over the Winter Soldier - making the eventual fight feel like a real red line crossed (though as I said, the actual fight choreography was blaaaaaaaand, flat and dull, typical MCU). It was walked back over time, but you felt characters pushed to their limit. Nobody really wanted to fight, but you could see how things came to a head all the same.

FortuneChip · 22-03-2021 11:33am

Penn wrote: »

I'm conflicted on it. When shot from afar it looks pretty good, like he's completely just flowing through the air. When it's up close though, it looks fairly ridiculous.

It didn't seem like they trusted it visually by itself as well, so they have him deliver three different pieces of dialogue during that final hero moment.

First it's his exposition
Then there's the "Look at me now dad" part
And some pointless philosophical ramblings about creating futures and pasts...

TheLocalMan · 22-03-2021 11:48am

Milanative wrote: »

Jeez some mental gymnastics on here to try and convince themselves it was good, far too long, the extra scenes add very little to what was already there, plot holes galore and that "knightmare" scene was utterly atrocious I've genuinely not heard worse dialogue in a film

Almost like people have different opinions to you!
Shocking! I know!

Tony EH · 22-03-2021 4:20pm

pixelburp wrote: »

The Dark Knight Returns, the obvious inspiration behind the dust up, at least went out of its way to set the fight up as legitimate. Superman by then was a stooge of the government, Batman a dangerous vigilante and anarchist. Why BvS simply didn't lift this, Supes briefly becoming a unilateral or corrupted figure, was weird. Instead we got this overcomplicated-but-kinda-simple plot, trying to marry the iconography of the above, Luthor being the puppet master, with the Death of Superman, AND hinting Darkseid. There was too much going on.

'The Dark Knight Returns' (although I haven't read it since I was in school) suffers from the same problem as 'Batman vs Superman' does in that it's hard for the audience to get their heads around why these two are fighting in the first place. Miller makes a better stab at it, but it fundamentally doesn't make any sense to people who know who these characters are and practically everyone knows who they are. But it's something you have to let go if one is to get any enjoyment out of these things.

But, again, these are superhero stories that are, literally, littered with stuff that have to be let go.

Although I agree, that there "was too much going on". But that is something that can be levelled at a lot of modern superhero movies.

That being said, I just finished 'Justice League' last night and, oh boy, talk about "too much going on".

B.A._Baracus · 22-03-2021 4:36pm

I watched it last night and liked it.
Much better than the original cinema release version. That was really bad.

Wouldn't mind seeing a sequel now as I've read what Snyder proposed but it's all out of the bag. Not to mention Ben Affleck is no longer Batman. Then again... The success of this may change things?

Brief_Lives · 22-03-2021 5:14pm

anyone able to provide what Snyder proposed for the sequel...

SMC92Ian · 22-03-2021 5:19pm

Tony EH wrote: »

So what? It's the coincidence that snaps Batman out of his one tracked thought process about Superman that he's had up to that point. Superman is now no longer just an alien to Batman, but someone with a mother. Now he's a man, not just a thing from another world who's been part of the destruction of much of Metropolis which is how Bruce has been viewing him.

Of course he does. Superman's mother...ahem, Martha...is about to get fried by Luthor's henchmen. Superman, at this point, is looking at death so he implores Batman to save his mother in a last desperate plea. It's a task he himself has failed to do. He has a perfect reason to mention it.

None of that matters. The important word is "Martha".

Except it's not, as explained above. Superman has accepted his defeat. He's been weakened by Batman's use of Kryptonite and is looking down the shaft of a Kryptonite spear that's about to do him in. He's failed to save his mother and appeals to Batman's better nature in the hopes that he has one.

That wouldn't work in the slightest. It would only serve to make Batman look even more unreasonable than he already is. In fact, it would be even less convincing than how it played out in the movie as it does now.

"I have a mum"

"Big feckin deal"

"She's called Martha!

"Hey...that's just like my mum!!!"

The problem with 'Batman vs Superman' is not Martha or any of the other nonsense that's been levelled at it. It's the fact that there's a conflict at all between two superheroes the likes of which have been well and truly established in the public consciousness for decades. It's difficult to get ones head around the possibility of these two fighting in the first place, but you have to if you are to buy into the movie.

And it's a stupid comic book movie. A movie were a man can fly and a rich man dresses up as a bat in a trilogy where space aliens and interdimensional beings are attacking earth. People complaining about the fact that Superman called his mother by her first name just sounds kinda ridiculous when everything else is taken into account.

It's a film series with Wonder Woman in it for gods sake. One of the dumbest creations ever to come out of anyone's head.

It's nonsense imo. Why didn't Superman just fly in a say "here Batman they have my mother please help" but no this Superman flies over to just murder Batman because Lexi said so?

Also didn't help that Civil War came out the same time with an actually good story building up two main character battering each other for a reason.

I wouldn't mind a sequel but then it would have that AWFUL Joker in it and I couldn't listen to that for 2 hours and that tart who f'd up Johnny Depp.

Tony EH · 22-03-2021 5:27pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

I don't get the love for Batffleck to be honest. He COULD have been great but I just didn't see enough about him to say it was a fantastic portrayal. Like I'd still have Bale over him, but maybe because Bale had the benefit of a 3 film wonderfully consistent arc and Affleck didn't.

Mind you I did see little things that I loved about Battfleck, for example the expression on his face as Superman dies at the beginning of ZSJL, and also his scene with Leto. I'd be happy to see more of him in a standalone film to see what he can really do.

I wouldn't mind seeing a stand alone series with Alfeck as Batman. And to be blunt, it was his Batman that made the difference for me in these films. He's still the most interesting superhero of them all and it's easy to see why he and Superman are the top tier and the rest are mainly also rans.

But if there was to be a Ben Afleck Batman series of movies, I'd like it if they were to get rid of all the alien/space/interdimensional nonsense. It really holds these things back. The likes of Thanos and Steppenwolf/Darksied are just boring as fuck, the latter having really annoying names to boot.

In any case, I think any more Batfleck is off the cards for good. And after the kicking these films have gotten from certain areas I cannot see anyone being that enthused to return for more, even with Snyder being able to push through his version in the end.

pixelburp · 22-03-2021 5:33pm

Tony EH wrote: »

I wouldn't mind seeing a stand alone series with Alfeck as Batman. And to be blunt, it was his Batman that made the difference for me in these films. He's still the most interesting superhero of them all and it's easy to see why he and Superman are the top tier and the rest are mainly also rans.

But if there was to be a Ben Afleck Batman series of movies, I'd like it if they were to get rid of all the alien/space/interdimensional nonsense. It really holds these things back. The likes of Thanos and Steppenwolf/Darksied are just boring as fuck, the latter having really annoying names to boot.

In any case, I think any more Batfleck is off the cards for good. And after the kicking these films have gotten from certain areas I cannot see anyone being that enthused to return for more, even with Snyder being able to push through his version in the end.

Not Ben Affleck, but the Matt Reeves helmed film, with Robert Pattinson in the lead looks to be playing it "real world" again, with a very grungy serial killer vibe.

Tony EH · 22-03-2021 6:03pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Not Ben Affleck, but the Matt Reeves helmed film, with Robert Pattinson in the lead looks to be playing it "real world" again, with a very grungy serial killer vibe.

Yeh, I just have trouble seeing Robert Pattinson as Batman. But then again, I had the same problem with Afleck who did an ok job in the end.

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