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COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

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Comments

  • #5312
    brickster69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭brickster69


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    Just read a post on twitter vacciworld account.
    It mentions EMA director we are worried that 'European States' suspensions of AZ vaccine will have an effect on trust in the vaccine.
    EMA Director - we have received reports of thromboembolic events for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, but the focus is on the AZ vaccine.

    EMA pharmacovigilance expert :the numbers of post-vaccination thromboembolic events are much lower, much lower than what you'd expect to see in the general population.


    My query then is, if there are thrombosis events across ALL currently approved vaccines and there ARE why not pause for all vaccine types. study the data, study the circumstances etc. Review the variables.

    Because the other vaccines do not have a Union Jack on the box. Have you not worked it out yet after the last 6 weeks ?

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • #5313
    Bartyman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭Bartyman


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9366963/Coronavirus-Pfizers-Covid-vaccine-linked-blood-clots-AstraZenecas-UK.html

    Playing politics now, couldn't make this **** up.


  • #5314
    RavenBea17b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    Interesting tweet from Mark Toshner. Recommend it highly. Title - Never make predictions.


  • #5315
    mick087
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭mick087


    Monster249 wrote: »
    Can someone explain the logic of us keeping the AZ vaccine on the shelf despite the EMA declaring the benefits outweigh the potential side effects?

    There is no logic at all.

    I'm starting to wonder if this is not about the effectiveness of the vaccine at all now.


  • #5316
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    Just read a post on twitter vacciworld account.
    It mentions EMA director we are worried that 'European States' suspensions of AZ vaccine will have an effect on trust in the vaccine.
    EMA Director - we have received reports of thromboembolic events for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, but the focus is on the AZ vaccine.

    EMA pharmacovigilance expert :the numbers of post-vaccination thromboembolic events are much lower, much lower than what you'd expect to see in the general population.


    My query then is, if there are thrombosis events across ALL currently approved vaccines and there ARE why not pause for all vaccine types. study the data, study the circumstances etc. Review the variables.

    And the rates being similar with each vaccine, across multiple countries... Except for one cluster in Norway which to me points to a freak occurrence or something weird going on at that location in Norway rather than with the vaccines which are showing the same results as each other.


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  • #5317
    josip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,666 ✭✭✭✭josip


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    Just read a post on twitter vacciworld account.
    It mentions EMA director we are worried that 'European States' suspensions of AZ vaccine will have an effect on trust in the vaccine.
    EMA Director - we have received reports of thromboembolic events for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, but the focus is on the AZ vaccine.

    EMA pharmacovigilance expert :the numbers of post-vaccination thromboembolic events are much lower, much lower than what you'd expect to see in the general population.

    My query then is, if there are thrombosis events across ALL currently approved vaccines and there ARE why not pause for all vaccine types. study the data, study the circumstances etc. Review the variables.


    Probably because the AZ events have been clustered and the suspicions are about batch quality rather than an overall concern with the vaccine.


  • #5318
    josip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,666 ✭✭✭✭josip


    brickster69 wrote: »
    Because the other vaccines do not have a Union Jack on the box. Have you not worked it out yet after the last 6 weeks ?


    No, not this.


  • #5319
    brickster69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Bartyman wrote: »
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9366963/Coronavirus-Pfizers-Covid-vaccine-linked-blood-clots-AstraZenecas-UK.html

    Playing politics now, couldn't make this **** up.

    It is true. If the other vaccines have been connected to the same thing why are others not suspending them all ?

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • #5320
    brickster69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭brickster69


    mick087 wrote: »
    There is no logic at all.

    I'm starting to wonder if this is not about the effectiveness of the vaccine at all now.

    I have been saying it for months. But no, people only see what they want to see.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • #5321
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    josip wrote: »
    Probably because the AZ events have been clustered and the suspicions are about batch quality rather than an overall concern with the vaccine.

    But that same batch has been used across Europe. The initial suspensions a few days ago were only on a specific numbers of Astra Zeneca batch.


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  • #5322
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    brickster69 wrote: »
    It is true. If the other vaccines have been connected to the same thing why are others not suspending them all ?

    It seems only AZ is associated with the rare brain clot.
    General clotting as a whole is expected, but a rare brain clot in a very localised cluster has only been seen in people vaccinated with AZ.
    The media seem to be forgetting that fact.


  • #5323
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,432 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Monster249 wrote: »
    Can someone explain the logic of us keeping the AZ vaccine on the shelf despite the EMA declaring the benefits outweigh the potential side effects?

    If we hadn't paused, a lot of people would be asking why are we still dishing it out when many countries have stopped to investigate a safety issue which has arisen. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.


  • #5324
    ACitizenErased
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,787 ✭✭✭✭ACitizenErased


    The Norwegians said Pfizer was killing people too back in January. I'm surprised we're even listening to them.


  • #5325
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    It seems only AZ is associated with the rare brain clot.
    General clotting as a whole is expected, but a rare brain clot in a very localised cluster has only been seen in people vaccinated with AZ.
    The media seem to be forgetting that fact.

    Who also happen to work in the same hospital.

    Could be wrong, but if you have something used so widely across a massive population with no issues, but then a couple of cases pop up in one town, in one work place, in people doing the same job... The first thing to look at is locally to see if there is any other link.

    It is a good reason to suspend vaccination in that town/ hospital temporarily. Its not a good reason to suspend it internationally though.


  • #5326
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,503 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    brickster69 wrote: »
    You do know who put Covax together and how much they donated. Also pledged it's remaining vaccines to poorer countries once finished it's own population. No doubt they will be exporting also to poorer countries.

    What has Ireland done ?

    You said lots of old people are dying because postmen are being prioritised, is the UK going to start shipping out vaccine today to help them?

    EU has shipped over 35M vaccine worldwide, UK has shipped 0, yet you think the EU is bad, I present a mirror to you.


  • #5327
    Tacitus Kilgore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,128 ✭✭✭Tacitus Kilgore


    Bartyman wrote: »
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9366963/Coronavirus-Pfizers-Covid-vaccine-linked-blood-clots-AstraZenecas-UK.html

    Playing politics now, couldn't make this **** up.

    Daily mail, not like they would be biased on this.
    brickster69 wrote: »
    It is true. If the other vaccines have been connected to the same thing why are others not suspending them all ?

    There's a surprise, brickster 'sticking it' to the EU :pac:


  • #5328
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    robinph wrote: »
    Who also happen to work in the same hospital.

    Could be wrong, but if you have something used so widely across a massive population with no issues, but then a couple of cases pop up in one town, in one work place, in people doing the same job... The first thing to look at is locally to see if there is any other link.

    It is a good reason to suspend vaccination in that town/ hospital temporarily. Its not a good reason to suspend it internationally though.

    German also noticed something similar, but I don't know if there was a cluster of cases of it in the same location or just spread out over the country.

    They could have went ahead vaccinating across Europe untill dozens of more cases popup in clusters around Europe, that would certainly have pointed to AZ, if cases didn't pop up, then that rules AZ out. But I don't think that's how they investigate issues around vaccine safety.

    Had there been a link, countries were afraid clusters of cases would be popping up all over Europe and it could have caused a **** storm.


  • #5329
    timsey tiger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭timsey tiger


    ACitizenErased wrote: »
    The Norwegians said Pfizer was killing people too back in January. I'm surprised we're even listening to them.

    Did they really?


  • #5330
    ACitizenErased
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,787 ✭✭✭✭ACitizenErased


    timsey tiger wrote: »
    Did they really?
    Yeah was all over the news back in January. They said all deaths are linked to the Pfizer vaccine.
    https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news/norway-concern-pfizer-vaccine/


  • #5331
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    German also noticed something similar, but I don't know if there was a cluster of cases of it in the same location or just spread out over the country.

    They could have went ahead vaccinating across Europe untill dozens of more cases popup in clusters around Europe, that would certainly have pointed to AZ, if cases didn't pop up, then that rules AZ out. But I don't think that's how they investigate issues around vaccine safety.

    Had there been a link, countries were afraid clusters of cases would be popping up all over Europe and it could have caused a **** storm.

    But there isn't any evidence of a link, or Norway are keeping it to themselves.

    There is also the point that even if there happens to be a rate of 3 people dying from blood clots per 17million vaccinations it is still better to crack on with the vaccination program at the moment. There is a far higher risk of getting run over crossing the road on the way to the vaccination centre than there is of getting a blood clot, regardless of if the vaccine is responsible for the blood clots or not.


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  • #5332
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 543 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ACitizenErased wrote: »
    The Norwegians said Pfizer was killing people too back in January. I'm surprised we're even listening to them.

    No they didn't. They raised concerns regarding a number of deaths in elderly people linked to the vaccine. They never suggested the vaccine was at fault and the investigation showed it wasn't.


  • #5333
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,292 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    Sorry if this has already been posted, is there anywhere to see how many people are in each cohort, eg over 85's, 80+, etc?


  • #5334
    brickster69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭brickster69


    ixoy wrote: »
    We're part of the EU's COVAX program so we're helping out with that €1bn program.

    Wow, so 10 Million Euro of funding. UK has donated £700 million and pledged all spare vaccines. That is one country compared to 27.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • #5335
    RavenBea17b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    ACitizenErased wrote: »
    The Norwegians said Pfizer was killing people too back in January. I'm surprised we're even listening to them.

    Look, if there is a concern, I would prefer Prudence and investigation. I am sure it will work out.
    But saying that, vaccines were not paused - at that time.


  • #5336
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,265 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    Look, if there is a concern, I would prefer Prudence and investigation. I am sure it will work out.

    Especially as it was earmarked for the highly vulnerable .


  • #5337
    Szero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 162 ✭✭Szero


    Parts of the US are now down to those aged 40+.

    https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1371830272715546626

    The UK is reported to be going to those aged 40+ by Easter.

    Meanwhile we are on 80+. Books will be written about the slow EU rollout.


  • #5338
    PCeeeee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭PCeeeee


    brickster69 wrote: »
    Wow, so 10 Million Euro of funding. UK has donated £700 million and pledged all spare vaccines. That is one country compared to 27.

    You can be very proud.


  • #5339
    JTMan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,581 ✭✭✭JTMan


    For over age 50, every 100,000 vaccines delayed by just 1 day ... 15 lives lost.

    https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1371776320829599745

    A SPEEDY resumption AZ/Oxford is needed on Thursday.


  • #5340
    eoinbn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭eoinbn


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    Look, if there is a concern, I would prefer Prudence and investigation. I am sure it will work out.
    But saying that, vaccines were not paused - at that time.

    We can't pause for every possible link when the possible link is flimsy. Right now we are vaccinating at between 5-10m a week in the EU. What happens when we are at 30m a week? There will be more recently vaccinated people dying, for various reasons, and more flimsy links. We really need a handle on this.
    We need a better reason than 'an abundance of caution'. We need some hard numbers on the reason behind the pause in the rollout.


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  • #5341
    eoinbn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 883 ✭✭✭eoinbn


    Szero wrote: »
    The UK is reported to be going to those aged 40+ by Easter.

    Meanwhile we are on 80+. Books will be written about the slow EU rollout.

    Sounds like a dull read. The consequences could be more interesting though. Another nail on the coffin of the EU.


This discussion has been closed.
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