When will it all end?

aido79 · 13-03-2021 11:13AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Yes the WHO

It is abuse and we are being held hostage, you have empty with Government, I want to see them brought to justice for what they've done. They failed to protect the most as risk in fact their actions killed many people. We won't blame anyone though it's a global pandemic incompetence and tyranny are excusable.

Criticising a government is the easiest thing in the world to do. What exactly do you think they should have done? Try and put a little bit of thought into it. Please don't come out with nonsense like protect the elderly without a little bit of detail on how this could be done realistically.

El_Duderino 09 · 13-03-2021 11:14AM

Lundstram wrote: »

Keep hearing about this "seasonal effect". Strange because last summer Ireland was the most restricted country in Europe last summer, and we continue to be.

They shut down Kildare for a whole month, Laois and Offaly weren't far behind but now have some counties with very low numbers but opening them up a little will not be entertained? Why?

Another easy ride for MM on RTE yesterday, the presenter way out of her depth. Nice cosy little chat. Waste of time.

Remember the Irish laughing at the whole Brexit process? Silly Brits wanting out of the EU. I was one of them. Who's laughing now.

You don’t believe it’s seasonal?

Baseball72 · 13-03-2021 11:17AM

Lundstram wrote: »

Keep hearing about this "seasonal effect". Strange because last summer Ireland was the most restricted country in Europe last summer, and we continue to be.

They shut down Kildare for a whole month, Laois and Offaly weren't far behind but now have some counties with very low numbers but opening them up a little will not be entertained? Why?

Another easy ride for MM on RTE yesterday, the presenter way out of her depth. Nice cosy little chat. Waste of time.

Remember the Irish laughing at the whole Brexit process? Silly Brits wanting out of the EU. I was one of them. Who's laughing now.

Fair play to the Brits for securing supplies of the vaccine and it's roll out - its impressive.

However, as Covid-19 begins to recede in the UK, Brexit - and the chaos that it is, will be front and centre - they got the vaccine's right - but Brexit and its effect on trade is every bit the disaster that it was predicted to be - and then some.

gozunda · 13-03-2021 11:17AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

In what way is our Governments response any way ok, they've been told repeatedly to not have restrictions on healthy people yet they continue to abuse us at every turn, you might think that's OTT, it's not, this has gone on too long and these clowns should be tarred and feathered at the very least.

It's year 2 of the hostage situation and your acting like this is fine, just hang on another few weeks, light at the end of the tunnel, jabs are coming, freedom soon just not the freedom you used to know.

Do you not believe that vaccinations are coming or maybe you don't think they work?

And where does it say things won't go back to normal when the pandemic is over?

Do you think its all a big conspiracy across the world?

snowcat · 13-03-2021 11:20AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The Government plan should be based on hospital numbers (ICU, admissions and deaths)......... not on cases. This would be very easy to articulate i.e. "when we get to below 400 cases in hospital or 50 in ICU" we can allow people play golf and go hiking, get a haircut. Its giving people something clear, something definitive. That's what people are crying out for!

You come across as very combative in all your posting, constantly defensive. I did not address you personally in any of my posts yet in both your replies you have made it about me? ("if you can't deal with the reality").

This is not about me. This is about the country I live in, this is about people I see suffering all around me. This is about the despair of small business owners, of people who are afraid to seek help if they are on the edge, of cancelled hospital appointments for children with chronic illnesses who are getting worse, of people who cannot pay their car loan and mortgage on €350 a week. NONE of those people are me, but I am worried about them and the Government should be too.
There are more ways to die than Covid!

This is very true. Vaccines or not the virus is not going away and will be with us for a long time if not for ever. Vaccines do not prevent contracting the virus they just prevent hospitalisation and death. There will be cases going forward in vaccinated persons but they should be fine but they will test positive. With the vaccination program progressing far less attention should be paid to case numbers, ICU and hospitalisations should be the priority. As long as they are declining everything is under control

El_Duderino 09 · 13-03-2021 11:20AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Government plan should be based on hospital numbers (ICU, admissions and deaths)......... not on cases. This would be very easy to articulate i.e. "when we get to below 400 cases in hospital or 50 in ICU" we can allow people play golf and go hiking, get a haircut. Its giving people something clear, something definitive. That's what people are crying out for!

You come across as very combative in all your posting, constantly defensive. I did not address you personally in any of my posts yet in both your replies you have made it about me? ("if you can't deal with the reality").

...

And you just made those numbers up, and you’re suggesting the government make up similar numbers. If numbers are just made up then they can be changed based on nothing too.

I addressed you because I was addressing your points. Something that comes across clearly is that different people have different approaches. When I ask a question and the honest answer is “I don’t know”’then I’m ok with that answer. Some people can’t handle that uncertainty and would prefer a made up answer delivered with certainty.

You’re asking for a made up answer (numbers or dates), delivered clearly and with certainty. I’d prefer the realistic answer, even if the honest answer is “I don’t know yet”.

Lundstram · 13-03-2021 11:22AM

Baseball72 wrote: »

Fair play to the Brits for securing supplies of the vaccine and it's roll out - its impressive.

However, as Covid-19 begins to recede in the UK, Brexit - and the chaos that it is, will be front and centre - they got the vaccine's right - but Brexit and its effect on trade is every bit the disaster that it was predicted to be - and then some.

Not at all. They got a good deal at the end of last year. They'll be fine.

They have a government who listen to their people. Here in Ireland, if a referendum doesn't go as planned, we do it again.

The UK has put the EU to shame.

mightyreds · 13-03-2021 11:26AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And you just made those numbers up, and you’re suggesting the government make up similar numbers. If numbers are just made up then they can be changed based on nothing too.

I addressed you because I was addressing your points. Something that comes across clearly is that different people have different approaches. When I ask a question and the honest answer is “I don’t know”’then I’m ok with that answer. Some people can’t handle that uncertainty and would prefer a made up answer delivered with certainty.

You’re asking for a made up answer (numbers or dates), delivered clearly and with certainty. I’d prefer the realistic answer, even if the honest answer is “I don’t know yet”.

You think "I don't know" will cut it, they are on massive salary's they have a full years data, "I don't know" doesn't cut it.

Risteard81 · 13-03-2021 11:36AM

Lundstram wrote: »

Keep hearing about this "seasonal effect". Strange because last summer Ireland was the most restricted country in Europe last summer, and we continue to be.

They shut down Kildare for a whole month, Laois and Offaly weren't far behind but now have some counties with very low numbers but opening them up a little will not be entertained? Why?

Another easy ride for MM on RTE yesterday, the presenter way out of her depth. Nice cosy little chat. Waste of time.

Remember the Irish laughing at the whole Brexit process? Silly Brits wanting out of the EU. I was one of them. Who's laughing now.

I was lucky enough to have a vote in the Brexit referendum. I am proud to say that I voted for Brexit. I have never considered the so-called "EU" to be a positive thing or force for good. The sovereignty and unity of the 32-County Irish Republic is inalienable and non-judicable. Brussels has no right to pass laws for us. (Nor does London, of course.)

drunkmonkey · 13-03-2021 11:47AM

aido79 wrote: »

Criticising a government is the easiest thing in the world to do. What exactly do you think they should have done? Try and put a little bit of thought into it. Please don't come out with nonsense like protect the elderly without a little bit of detail on how this could be done realistically.

It doesn't require a whole lot of thought to come up with a better plan.
From the very start they've made a balls of it, who precisely are we not to blame for the nursing homes, someone I'd assume advised by NPHET ordered the untested patients to be sent back into nursing homes. At an absolute minimum those patients should have been tested. There will be an enquiry into this yet as it was a crazy decision.

That's just one thing, do we really need to go through every decision to show their ludicrous approach to everything. I can't think of anything they've got right.
Isolating the sick - fail
Contact tracing - fail
Cancer diagnosis - fail
€9 meals - fail
Meaningful christmas - fail
Birth rate - fail
Vaccine procurement - fail
Living with Covid plan - fail

and on and on it goes, where does it end nobody knows.

gozunda · 13-03-2021 11:49AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Government plan should be based on hospital numbers (ICU, admissions and deaths)......... not on cases. This would be very easy to articulate i.e. "when we get to below 400 cases in hospital or 50 in ICU" we can allow people play golf and go hiking, get a haircut. Its giving people something clear, something definitive. That's what people are crying out for!
...

This is not about me. This is about the country I live in, this is about people I see suffering all around me. This is about the despair of small business owners, of people who are afraid to seek help if they are on the edge, of cancelled hospital appointments for children with chronic illnesses who are getting worse, of people who cannot pay their car loan and mortgage on €350 a week. NONE of those people are me, but I am worried about them and the Government should be too.
There are more ways to die than Covid!

Did you come up with that yourself of the top of your head or?

Where do you get that the governments plan here is based on "cases"?

Even the UK have detailed set tests or criteria which will dictate if and when their restrictions will be rolled back.

There is no simplified number solution such as
'numbers are X you can have your haircut'

And no - hospital numbers alone are not the best indicator as there is a known lag time between initial infection and hospitalisations.

The governments plan much like the UK is based on a number of factors

1. Disease prevalence (case numbers/incidence) is brought to much lower levels that can be managed and controlled by public health and that the reproduction number (“R” number) is such that we can be confident we can continue to suppress the disease e.g. at or below

2. Hospital and critical care occupancy are reduced to low levels to protect the health service and allow for the safe resumption of non-COVID-19 care.

3. Ongoing and steady progress on the vaccination programme such that the most vulnerable are protected through vaccination.

4. Emerging information on variants of concern.

As to the rest- no one I know wants restrictions. And no one I know wants to die from Covid or even get it.

Are restrictions necessary? Yes they are imho.

You talk of people people playing golf, go hiking, getting a haircut. And as nice as these things are - they do not equate to the second part of your comment which tbf comes across as a rant. And yes I know people are genuinely struggling but wringing our hands doesn't help.

It also ignores that as the vaccination rate increases - then restrictions will be rolled back. Demanding that we ignore that and instead opt for some bizarre pop bingo to decide when to open things up is well frankly bizarre.

aido79 · 13-03-2021 11:52AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It doesn't require a whole lot of thought to come up with a better plan.
From the very start they've made a balls of it, who precisely are we not to blame for the nursing homes, someone I'd assume advised by NPHET ordered the untested patients to be sent back into nursing homes. At an absolute minimum those patients should have been tested. There will be an enquiry into this yet as it was a crazy decision.

That's just one thing, do we really need to go through every decision to show their ludicrous approach to everything. I can't think of anything they've got right.
Isolating the sick - fail
Contact tracing - fail
Cancer diagnosis - fail
€9 meals - fail
Meaningful christmas - fail
Birth rate - fail
Vaccine procurement - fail
Living with Covid plan - fail

and on and on it goes, where does it end nobody knows.

And you're suggesting they could have got all of these things right with no restrictions?

drunkmonkey · 13-03-2021 11:57AM

aido79 wrote: »

And you're suggesting they could have got all of these things right with no restrictions?

They had restrictions and didn't get them right, some of those if done correctly would have resulted in way less restrictions, we're a year down the road and no better off, yes we have the emergency use vaccines and easy treatments on the way, our government can't be credited for any of that though.

aido79 · 13-03-2021 12:05PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They had restrictions and didn't get them right, some of those if done correctly would have resulted in way less restrictions, we're a year down the road and no better off, yes we have the emergency use vaccines and easy treatments on the way, our government can't be credited for any of that though.

So because they didn't get some of the restrictions right and could have done better you think it's a good idea to get rid of all restrictions when cases numbers are starting to rise again?

drunkmonkey · 13-03-2021 12:07PM

gozunda wrote: »

Are restrictions necessary? Yes they are imho.

Only on sick people, we've been told what to do from the start and we just can't get the basics right after a year so we end up with restrictions on everyone. Complete failure by NPHET are the reason for ongoing restrictions, it's not the peoples fault, we did what they asked, gave them time to get their ducks in a row and they failed spectaculary.

“I've said this since the beginning; if you focus on cases and contacts and you focus on clusters, you focus on restricting the movement of people who are sick or their contacts.

“Then you don't have to restrict the movement of all of society.

Mike Ryan, World Health Organisation, repeatedly.

drunkmonkey · 13-03-2021 12:15PM

aido79 wrote: »

So because they didn't get some of the restrictions right and could have done better you think it's a good idea to get rid of all restrictions when cases numbers are starting to rise again?

I don't give two hoots about cases from a flawded testing regime. We need restrictions on the sick for a few more months until the cure arrives as the vaccine won't be the solution, my restrictions would be a lot more palatable and be evidence based. NPHET's solution is to ban everything, crazy plan with crazy supporters.

RGS · 13-03-2021 12:30PM

You cant make plans based on case numbers. Our testing criteria changes with the weather.
When we had high cases we decided not to test close contacts, which you would think would be essential to get a handle on where the outbreaks happened.

We then change the criteria when case numbers are falling and surprise surprise case numbers rise.

No plan should be based on case numbers, given the shifting sands over the past 12 months, but on hospitalisation and ICU numbers.

I cannot accept a team of highly paid people cant put a concise coherent plan together that the public can get behind.

the kelt · 13-03-2021 12:34PM

RGS wrote: »

You cant make plans based on case numbers. Our testing criteria changes with the weather.
When we had high cases we decided not to test close contacts, which you would think would be essential to get a handle on where the outbreaks happened.

We then change the criteria when case numbers are falling and surprise surprise case numbers rise.

No plan should be based on case numbers, given the shifting sands over the past 12 months, but on hospitalisation and ICU numbers.

I cannot accept a team of highly paid people cant put a concise coherent plan together that the public can get behind.

Well when ye have enough simpletons who don’t want such a plan and are happy to just carry on anyway why would ye bother making a plan.

I mean we had people arguing on here that they didn’t think it was right to even ask how many we had vaccinated in a week.

It’s misery addiction.

gozunda · 13-03-2021 12:36PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Only on sick people, we've been told what to do from the start and we just can't get the basics right after a year so we end up with restrictions on everyone. Complete failure by NPHET are the reason for ongoing restrictions, it's not the peoples fault, we did what they asked, gave them time to get their ducks in a row and they failed spectaculary.
“I've said this since the beginning; if you focus on cases and contacts and you focus on clusters, you focus on restricting the movement of people who are sick or their contacts.“Then you don't have to restrict the movement of all of society. Mike Ryan, World Health Organisation, repeatedly.

And where people are carriers but not 'sick' how does that model work?

Vaccinations are ongoing.

Could Vaccination be faster - yes it could. But we're going forward.

Btw the model you've outlined - has any county outside China been able to implement it?

Micky 32 · 13-03-2021 12:37PM

gozunda wrote: »

as the vaccination rate increases - then restrictions will be rolled back.

Sums it up, in a nutshell really.

aido79 · 13-03-2021 12:38PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't give two hoots about cases from a flawded testing regime. We need restrictions on the sick for a few more months until the cure arrives as the vaccine won't be the solution, my restrictions would be a lot more palatable and be evidence based. NPHET's solution is to ban everything, crazy plan with crazy supporters.

What restrictions would you place on the sick and elderly and what evidence would you base them on?
What cure are you talking about if the vaccine isn't the solution?

drunkmonkey · 13-03-2021 12:44PM

gozunda wrote: »

And where people are carriers but not 'sick' how does that model work?

Healthy people are no threat, even if you want to start on about the asymptomatic, people know at this stage not to lick their fingers and keep a safe distance from strangers indoors.
Personal responsibility for yourself should be the order of the day like it has been for millennia. Follow the basics, safe distance, wash your hands. Get on with your life.

13-03-2021 12:47PM

I think some people are forgetting the fact that case numbers are irrelevant and it’s the hospital and ICU figures that should be paid most attention. Case numbers will rise and fall with each step we take to open the place up. That’s the risk we take. As long as hospitalisations and ICU numbers stay manageable, we should continue to ease restrictions. The reality is that the lack of sufficient investment in the health service is the real culprit here. However, as we vaccinate more of the vulnerable we should be able to take a calculated risk here.
We cannot continue this gravy train of borrowing and borrowing. Even the free money has to be repaid and the fact the government is betting on the savings glut flowing into the economy is not guarantee. People are out of the habit of spending and that’s not something that will change easily, not to mention the amount of people who will not be going back to work once the restrictions are eased totally.
There are bigger problems coming our way too. The lowest stock of housing since 2006 and construction sites are closed? Absolute madness.
I, for one, find it absolutely unacceptable that NPHET have absolutely no alternative plan or advice based on their expertise, despite the fact their advice appears to have stalled. They talk about how they are concerned that fatigue is setting in. 6 months, give or take 3 weeks, of the same thing with now plateauing results and no promise of escape, they can hardly be surprised.

drunkmonkey · 13-03-2021 12:50PM

aido79 wrote: »

What restrictions would you place on the sick and elderly and what evidence would you base them on?
What cure are you talking about if the vaccine isn't the solution?

Sick people are ones with symptoms. I'm talking about the ones coming form Merck, Eli Lilly, AstraZeneca.
We've an obsession with Vaccines in this country, not necessary when you have a highly effective treatment. We're not getting to 80% of adults vaccinated and we're certainly not going to keep that figure up if the boosters are needed as expected.

Charles Babbage · 13-03-2021 12:50PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Healthy people are no threat, even if you want to start on about the asymptomatic, people know at this stage not to lick their fingers and keep a safe distance from strangers indoors.
Personal responsibility for yourself should be the order of the day like it has been for millennia. Follow the basics, safe distance, wash your hands. Get on with your life.

Giving someone a disease makes you a threat. Why should others have to change their behaviour because you are a threat?

aido79 · 13-03-2021 01:01PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Sick people are ones with symptoms. I'm talking about the ones coming form Merck, Eli Lilly, AstraZeneca.
We've an obsession with Vaccines in this country, not necessary when you have a highly effective treatment. We're not getting to 80% of adults vaccinated and we're certainly not going to keep that figure up if the boosters are needed as expected.

So the sick people who have been incubating and spreading the disease before they show symptoms are placed under restrictions? And then when the people they have infected become symptomatic they are isolated after they too have spread it to God only knows how many people? Have you not taken any notice of what has been learned about covid in the past year?

You are quick to criticise the government's handling of this but are too short sighted to see the faults of your own nonsense plan.

What highly effective(proven) treatments do you suggest they use?

drunkmonkey · 13-03-2021 01:02PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Giving someone a disease makes you a threat. Why should others have to change their behaviour because you are a threat?

Can't give you what I don't have

Your going to have to run the gauntlet with healthy people at some stage, not sure how your going to cope seen as you've bought into the idea it's your job to protect other people by self identifying as infectious.

drunkmonkey · 13-03-2021 01:09PM

aido79 wrote: »

So the sick people who have been incubating and spreading the disease before they show symptoms are placed under restrictions? And then when the people they have infected become symptomatic they are isolated after they too have spread it to God only knows how many people? Have you not taken any notice of what has been learned about covid in the past year?

You are quick to criticise the government's handling of this but are too short sighted to see the faults of your own nonsense plan.

What highly effective(proven) treatments do you suggest they use?

Ok I get it you support NPHET and the Government in their handling of this. I'm not that far gone yet sorry, maybe a few more months of this and they'll break me too.

Do you not get how an effective contact tracing system helps identify the people likely to spread it. Why your giving them a free pass for failure on this I can't fathom, has to be the stockholm.

The treatments are all going through trials at the moment, one even stops you being infectious after 24hrs. You'll be taking a course of antiviral tablets to battle this soon.

aido79 · 13-03-2021 01:27PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ok I get it you support NPHET and the Government in their handling of this. I'm not that far gone yet sorry, maybe a few more months of this and they'll break me too.

Do you not get how an effective contact tracing system helps identify the people likely to spread it. Why your giving them a free pass for failure on this I can't fathom, has to be the stockholm.

The treatments are all going through trials at the moment, one even stops you being infectious after 24hrs. You'll be taking a course of antiviral tablets to battle this soon.

Contract tracing will only work in a lockdown situation unless you want to bring in a system where you literally have to sign into every where you go. Otherwise the number of contacts would be enormous.

Believe me I'm as fed up as anyone with restrictions. I returned to Ireland a few months before this all started from a place where they have been largely unaffected by covid and my plans were turned upside down by covid.
I definitely think this whole thing could have been handled better but what you are coming out with shows a complete lack of understanding of how this virus spreads and how it can and can't be controlled.
Even the treatment you are suggesting by your own admission is still going through trials.

I have always thought that rapid testing and effective treatment is the best solution to this rather than a vaccine but rapid testing isn't reliable and the treatment isn't available at present whereas the vaccine has been proven to be effective.

13-03-2021 01:47PM

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-lockdowns-werent-worth-it-11615485413?mod=e2tw

When will it all end?

Comments