Should Wexford Waterford line reopen?

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Honest question for you: how do you square the notion that the people who operate the rail network, the people who actively campaign for sustainable transport, etc, all think that reinstating this line at a cost of 100million for 500 passengers per day would be a poor allocation of funds?
Do you think they all just don't understand, or do you think that they have some kind of anti-Waterford agenda, or what do you think the rationale might be?

the people who operate the network generally don't campaign for anything nor want to reopen or even operate a lot of services, dispite their lip service.
for example, the very successfull dublin to maynooth suburban service exists because apparently a minister essentially forced them to put it on.
if he hadn't, chances are that such a service wouldn't exist as the whole lot to sligo would have closed in the early 90s as nearly happened passed maynooth, or if it did happen, we would be talking about it probably being introduced in the mid to late 2000s assuming the line hadn't been lifted.
to be honest a cynic would say that if IE thinks it's a bad idea, it's probably actually a good one.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I see no benefit to this to be honest.
It'll be another Ballybrophy line. Expensive subvention at the expense of the tax payer.
Is there significant demand for daily commuters between the 2?
I'm all for investment in infrastructure but it can't be just at enormous loss.
A greenaway is another good addition to tourism in the region.

almost every line has an expensive subvention, but it's ultimately cheaper then the other costs of not having it in existence i would expect, otherwise we just wouldn't bother having it.
realistically the ballybroaphy line costs what it does because it still has manual signalling and i believe there are some staffed crossing gates, remove those and actually insure speeds are improved and implement an actual half decent timetable and you will get that subsidy down substantially.
there was a chance to do all of that when the modernisation of the network was taking place and irish rail would have gotten the funding for this and the limerick to rosslare line had they asked for it.
as someone who knows the south wexford area quite well, there is absolutely no potential for a greenway on the line, there is no tourism potential especially.
for any cycling potential doing up the norman way would be the best option for tourism, maybe the new ross greenway might get a bit of usage but i wouldn't bank on it.
the norman way certainly would be the best greenway the county would be able to offer, and if you could get some way to extend to the real tourist hot spots like hookhead and so on then certainly that would be worth looking at.
but a south wexford greenway, forget it as there is nothing to offer.

Deleted User wrote: »

The WRC has a speed closer to 50kph. Its a 2 hr train ride that takes 1hr 20mins to drive

You REALLY don't want to be referring to the WRC if you are trying to make a case to justify reopening a line. The abysmal performance of that line (pick any metric) has done more to damage the case for rail than anything else we're likely to see in our lifetimes

it's not that it has damaged the case for rail investment, but it's used as an excuse against rail investment by those who don't really actually want to invest in it but are being more or less forced to do so.
if it wasn't that line, which to be fair is a reasonable success covid asside, it would be something else.

Sam Russell wrote: »

To get from Rosslare Europort to Wexford is timetabled at 23 mins. and according to Google, a car will take 23 mins. Now there are three trains in each direction currently, 7:20 am, 12:55 and 17:55, none of which is designed to meet any ferries. I would imagine that the ferries are the only source of passengers for the train at Rosslare Europort, and yet the train ignores them.

Now a bus service could provide a better service than this at very low cost, since the road is there and maintained anyway, could be timed to meet any ferries, and any number of coaches could be provided to meet any actual demand.

So what possible advantage has the train over the coach?

I would imagine that outside intercity rail journeys, rural rail is not meeting much of a need, particularly where there exists motorways, like Tuam to Athenry, or Athenry to Limerick.

Are there any surveys of possible passenger demand from Waterford to Wexford? Are they more than - 'Yes, I would use the train when my car breaks down!'

There are no numbers that are believable for passenger traffic on this line, and improvements on the N25 render them unlikely to be based on reality, but more on wishful thinking and dreaming.

people from the village of rosslare and the strand use the service, it's actually reasonably used.
i drive the rosslare road quite a bit and funnily enough i'm often beaten by the train.
replacing the service with a bus service would do nothing really, after all if people wanted bus services they would have had more of them and yet those using public transport to dublin take the train as it is more convenient and quicker when it runs.
or if not then they drive to wexford for the bus if they do take that to dublin.
realistically the bit of track to rosslare is really a long siding so removing it would save little.
to mention on a separate note, the line to dublin has 4 up and 5 down services in normal time and not 3, that has been the case since 2004.
the current timetable will be less due to covid of course.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

You can continue to hold that belief. We all have our beliefs. But then there's cold hard cash to be stumped up. I think that's when the belief has to be backed up by fact, demand, and planning. I don't believe there is anything like the demand - there wasn't even the demand to run a bus from Enniscorthy to Waterford through Clonroche?

Its worth noting that the subvention in the Ballybrophy-Limerick train line is €550 per PASSENGER. Don't forget that the Capex costs to build the line are 1 thing - the Opex costs are the real killer as they are the on-going costs year in year out. Money which can absolutely find a better home in our country than some romantic notion of a demand which just isn't there.

You can always tell demand based on services like Wexford Bus - they only put on buses where there's business justification, because it hits their bottom line. If they can't even justify more than a handful of buses a day, how are you justifying a outrageously expensive train line?



Neither of these are true. Many of us know the area, or live in the real world.

actually to be fair, you can't tell demand for rail services based on bus services, as while there may be some overlap in terms of users, both generally are different markets with different users.
so wexford bus running few services shows there is little demand for bus services, but doesn't necessarily show there is little demand for a properly run rail service.

end of the road wrote: »

as someone who knows the south wexford area quite well, there is absolutely no potential for a greenway on the line, there is no tourism potential especially.
for any cycling potential doing up the norman way would be the best option for tourism, maybe the new ross greenway might get a bit of usage but i wouldn't bank on it.
the norman way certainly would be the best greenway the county would be able to offer, and if you could get some way to extend to the real tourist hot spots like hookhead and so on then certainly that would be worth looking at.
but a south wexford greenway, forget it as there is nothing to offer.


snipped for brevity

This is the thing I find most people don't seem to understand, in my limited enough experience 90% of the usage of greenways/blueways is by local people.

During the planning process for the Barrow Blueway I attended the questions always were where will the tourists stay? Have we facilities for all the foreigners? People used to look at me strangely when I said that mainly this investment is for you and your families, a certain amount of external tourism will come but that in my opinion it was depending on a network being established. But now that bits of thew blueway are being opened it's black every fine day with local people enjoying the facility, being out in the open air with their family and not having to worry about traffic.

Obviously my 90% estimate applies to non tourist areas, Connemara and Kerry when they open will have a different mix.

I reckon the people of South Wexford are as entitled to some nice facilities as anyone else

And of course if touring cyclists are going to come to this country by boat to Rosslare, a nice greenway to get them to Waterford would be very useful.

nilhg wrote: »

This is the thing I find most people don't seem to understand, in my limited enough experience 90% of the usage of greenways/blueways is by local people.

During the planning process for the Barrow Blueway I attended the questions always were where will the tourists stay? Have we facilities for all the foreigners? People used to look at me strangely when I said that mainly this investment is for you and your families, a certain amount of external tourism will come but that in my opinion it was depending on a network being established. But now that bits of thew blueway are being opened it's black every fine day with local people enjoying the facility, being out in the open air with their family and not having to worry about traffic.

Obviously my 90% estimate applies to non tourist areas, Connemara and Kerry when they open will have a different mix.

I reckon the people of South Wexford are as entitled to some nice facilities as anyone else

And of course if touring cyclists are going to come to this country by boat to Rosslare, a nice greenway to get them to Waterford would be very useful.

I think you're right. Whereas the Tourist may be the icing on the cake, the real value is to local usage. An example would be the Canals in the Uk, last one I visited the towpath was plastered with dog walkers and strollers, with the pub and ice cream shop doing a roaring trade. No reason why an Irish facility shouldn't be sucessful at the same things, albeit on a smaller scale perhaps (which might be a good thing given the throng on that towpath!

end of the road wrote: »

you aren't comparing like with like though.
the barrow blue way is really an inexpensive bit of infrastructure and costs little to actually look after, so a few locals on a fine day can be justified.
a greenway on the south wexford line however would be very expensive in terms of cost to construct and the maintenence it requires due to the structures, 1 or 2 locals out on a fine day just would not be worth the cost, and from what i hear there is not really much support or want for it anyway apart from some local politicians.
it seems to be mainly people who have nothing to do with the county and who don't know the local conditions who support it with the odd few in the county.
you would need hords of tourists to support it on an ongoing basis and i'm afraid there is never going to be anything of tourist value in the areas along the line.
the likes of the norman way which have potentially something to offer if it was done up would be the facility south wexford would deserve, not a hugely expensive to maintain greenway that might get a small bit of usage a couple of days a year and which will suck up quite a bit of our already high property tax all the while the local roads are falling to bits and the motor ways are beyond congested.
i'm sorry but as someone who is familiar with the area such a greenway has nothing going for it and never will do so.
the few cycling tourists who might come through rosslare can head for the new ross greenway, if they want a "nice greenway"

Really you should come up and have a look, you might learn something.

A quick look at the Norman Way website suggests it's a collection of sites that you drive between? There's no marked way? Or even if there is you're sharing the space with normal road traffic. With the best will in the world that's not a great experience for a family with a couple of youngsters on their bikes

end of the road wrote: »

with respect i don't need to learn anything, i know the reality and the local conditions on the ground within the area we are discussing.
you will have read me mentioning doing up the norman way, as in mark it and where possible segregate it from the rest of the traffic, after that it will do nicely.
trust me, forget about a south wexford railway greenway, it really has nothing going for it as a greenway.

Well the folk in Kildare (and Laois) are delighted that someone has the vision to spend €6.75 million on the Blueway , I've no idea what it might cost to make a greenway on the old disused railway but as you say it'll be up to the people of South Wexford to fight their own battle on that.

Just WRT the Norman way, painting a few lines on the side of a road doesn't make a jot of difference, it should be proper facilities or nothing.

end of the road wrote: »

with respect i don't need to learn anything, i know the reality and the local conditions on the ground within the area we are discussing.

Where do you live in South Wexford?

end of the road wrote: »

certainly proper facilities on the norman way would be welcome and i reccan that would get good support, even from the most disinterested person in cycling.

It's a route that's roughly 140KM long. Upgrading the roads so there's proper protected cycling facilites would cost an absolute fortune.

end of the road wrote: »

with respect i don't need to learn anything, i know the reality and the local conditions on the ground within the area we are discussing.
you will have read me mentioning doing up the norman way, as in mark it and where possible segregate it from the rest of the traffic, after that it will do nicely.
trust me, forget about a south wexford railway greenway, it really has nothing going for it as a greenway.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Where do you live in South Wexford?

It's a route that's roughly 140KM long. Upgrading the roads so there's proper protected cycling facilites would cost an absolute fortune.

even if it did cost a fortune, which to be honest i don't believe it would, it would actually have a pay back and would be worth it, it would be a cycle way to be prowd of.
something like that which would actually provide interest and tourism is the greenway we deserve to have.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I finally got around to scan the business case above and it makes even less sense now.
Several points on it (and to be honest, I could pick holes all day):
1. The new developments in Wexford town should be used to attract people to live in the town, not to commute from Waterford to it.
2. I presumed the intention was that the train would be non-stop Wexford-Waterford. I can't believe there is a suggestion that it should stop in Campile, Wellingtonbridge etc. That alone will probably make it slower than the bus.
3. The figures for school going children are outrageous. Yes there might be that many children but many of them are probably being brought by parents travelling to-from work. I would also contend, that the major schools in Waterford are all more than 20 minutes walk from the train station. As are most of the employers in the city.
4. I would say that there are very very few international travellers who arrive in Ireland and rely on our train services. They either do a coach tour (e.g. Paddy Wagon tours) or hire a car. Yes you might find a few Dutch people who'll cycle around but very few.
5. I would love to know the numbers who have sat at home and said "If only there was a train I could get to The Phil Murphy Weekend in Carrick-on-Bannow"
6. I would rather see €100m spent on the likes of Trinity Wharf, the business park in Enniscorthy at St. Senan's and similar projects as well as improvements on the Rosslare-Dublin line.
7. There clearly isn't the demand or the supply (or maybe the track, I don't know) for a train from Gorey-Enniscorthy-Wexford as a commuter service, which would pass through 2 big towns. I just don't see the demand on this line either. And at €6 each way according to Irish Rail, I can see why.

I would love to be sitting here saying "Great idea, hurry up and do it" but it just isn't adding up. I can't help hearing "The West Clare Railway" song in my head here.

Not everyone who goes to work or school in Waterford or Wexford needs to be likely to use the train for reopening the Waterford-Rosslare railway to make sense. Not all the tourists visiting the region need to be likely to take the train either.

I am not in support of all the stations which were between Waterford and Rosslare reopening. I am not sure if most people in South East on Track agree with me, but if it was up to me, two of the intermediate stations would reopen, Bridgetown(because it has a higher population than any of the other villages) and Ballycullane(because it is close to both Wellingtonbridge and Campile, so they would be within the catchment area of Ballycullane station).
If new track was put on the line allowing an average speed of 100km/h between Waterford and Wexford, it would take about 40 minutes to travel the 65km between them, non-stop. I think stopping at 2 stations would delay a train by about 6 minutes(3 minutes for each station), and I think having to accelerate leaving Waterford and slow down while approaching Wexford would delay the train by 4 minutes(2 minutes for accelerating, 2 for slowing down).
That would mean the journey time would be 50 minutes, which is faster than the bus, and slightly slower than travelling by car.

ohographite wrote: »

Not everyone who goes to work or school in Waterford or Wexford needs to be likely to use the train for reopening the Waterford-Rosslare railway to make sense. Not all the tourists visiting the region need to be likely to take the train either.

I am not in support of all the stations which were between Waterford and Rosslare reopening. I am not sure if most people in South East on Track agree with me, but if it was up to me, two of the intermediate stations would reopen, Bridgetown(because it has a higher population than any of the other villages) and Ballycullane(because it is close to both Wellingtonbridge and Campile, so they would be within the catchment area of Ballycullane station).
If new track was put on the line allowing an average speed of 100km/h between Waterford and Wexford, it would take about 40 minutes to travel the 65km between them, non-stop. I think stopping at 2 stations would delay a train by about 6 minutes(3 minutes for each station), and I think having to accelerate leaving Waterford and slow down while approaching Wexford would delay the train by 4 minutes(2 minutes for accelerating, 2 for slowing down).
That would mean the journey time would be 50 minutes, which is faster than the bus, and slightly slower than travelling by car.

Aside from the journey time, lets be realistic here - there isn't the demand in any of those places for a train service.
I completely get the romantic notion of hopping on the train in Wellington Bridge and getting off in Waterford, but lets be real here - there just isn't the population size to justify it.
In fact, I'd probably wonder if there is the demand for even a couple of buses a day. Is there?

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Aside from the journey time, lets be realistic here - there isn't the demand in any of those places for a train service.
I completely get the romantic notion of hopping on the train in Wellington Bridge and getting off in Waterford, but lets be real here - there just isn't the population size to justify it.
In fact, I'd probably wonder if there is the demand for even a couple of buses a day. Is there?

I accept that a few villages with a combined population of 1000-2000 people are unlikely to generate enough travel demand for a railway to make sense(by make sense, I mean reduce greenhouse gas emissions).
However, the people who would use the railway to travel to these villages would not be the only people using the railway. It would also be people travelling from Waterford to towns on the east coast, people travelling from towns on the east coast to towns on the Dublin-Waterford and Limerick-Waterford lines etc.
I would say all of these journey possibilities combined would mean a significant amount of people would use the railway, even though there is no journey possibility which would by itself.