Should Wexford Waterford line reopen?

Del.Monte

bk wrote: »

You mean BE Expressway, the commercial arm of BE. Obviously not well enough used to be viable or Expressway wouldn't have withdrawn it. Nor are they required to consultant with anyone on changes to commercial services.

If BE can't even justify a coach service on the route, then there is certainly no justification for a much more expensive rail service.

If there really is the demand there that you seem to be suggesting, then the people living in the region would be much better advised to campaign for an improved direct PSO coach service, which would cost a fraction of the cost of this line and deliver a faster service.

Again you trying to make this all about 'the people living in the region' - it's a far bigger picture than that which you deliberately continue to ignore.

spacetweek

Lot of people on here not understanding what a network is and why it's important. We've been through this in the 20th Century - the more lines you close, the less useful the entire network becomes.
Wexford-Waterford isn't just about boardings on the stations on that line. It's about Rosslare and its freight to points west.

You gotta be strategic about this. Vision means being able to see the wider benefits to a more complete rail network.

Isambard

spacetweek wrote: »

Lot of people on here not understanding what a network is and why it's important. We've been throu.:eek:gh this in the 20th Century - the more lines you close, the less useful the entire network becomes.
Wexford-Waterford isn't just about boardings on the stations on that line. It's about Rosslare and its freight to points west.

You gotta be strategic about this. Vision means being able to see the wider benefits to a more complete rail network.

what freight would that be? you don't have to go far west before you get to Belview and not much further is Cork any freight going west would be more efficiently dealt with at one or the other.

Zebra3

spacetweek wrote: »

Lot of people on here not understanding what a network is and why it's important. We've been through this in the 20th Century - the more lines you close, the less useful the entire network becomes.
Wexford-Waterford isn't just about boardings on the stations on that line. It's about Rosslare and its freight to points west.

You gotta be strategic about this. Vision means being able to see the wider benefits to a more complete rail network.

You are correct, but what has the WRC done for the IR network? The answer, as we all know, is nothing.

Most people on here, myself included, are pro-rail, but it's gotta be in the right place for it to be anyway viable. Sadly, this just isn't the case here.

You might get some politicians making noises about it to win a few votes, but I doubt any would really push for it and end up being associated with an utter failure and waste of millions and millions of euros of taxpayers' money.

bk

Del.Monte wrote: »

Again you trying to make this all about 'the people living in the region' - it's a far bigger picture than that which you deliberately continue to ignore.

So neither you Del.Monte or end of the road are actually answering the question I've asked multiple times?

So I assume from the lack of rebuttal from either of you, you are both admitting that a coach between Waterford and Enniscorthy is faster then the same journey by rail, thanks.

Now to move onto the above.

Are you not interested in improving public transport for the people of this region?!!

Is this not the point of this, to improve public transport in the South East?

What bigger picture are you talking about? Are you just sitting there looking at an old Victorian map of rail in Ireland and playing join the dots trying to rebuild that? Without looking too what the people of the region actually want and need?

I mean the ironic thing about all of this, is that public transport has greatly improved on this route in the last ten years!

Ten years ago, when the train line was open, you had just one return service a day, Wexford to Waterford in the morning, Waterford to Wexford back in the evening. That's it!

By comparison, with Wexford Bus today, the route now has 8 return services a day, operating all throughout the day. On a nice big modern coach, with leather reclining seats, wifi, contactless payment, app to track the bus, etc.

And a service that drops you right to WIT and other destinations, rather then a 40 minute walk away!

And all this operated by a commercial operator at zero cost to the tax payer, while the old rail line cost €4 million a year to operate!

This is a great example of how a coach service can sometimes be a great fit for a low demand rural route and offer a superior service to a much more expensive rail service.

Folks here are looking to spend almost 100 million re-opening this line. Think about that, for that money you could buy a fleet of 200 hydrogen powered coaches to operate services throughout the south east. That would transform public transport there, much more radically then a single reopened line.

Trust me I'm very much looking at the big picture. I'm looking at how we transform public transport for the people of all of Ireland and improve our infrastructure of all types. Of using the right solutions for the job.

bk

spacetweek wrote: »

Lot of people on here not understanding what a network is and why it's important. We've been through this in the 20th Century - the more lines you close, the less useful the entire network becomes.
Wexford-Waterford isn't just about boardings on the stations on that line. It's about Rosslare and its freight to points west.

What freight? Rosslare is a Roll On Roll Off port and they have made it clear that there is no demand for rail freight from there.

I'd also point out, that while our Rail network is much smaller then it was 100 years ago, today it carries VASTLY more people then it ever has. Irish Passenger numbers have grown 3 times larger in just the last 30 years and that is ignoring Luas opening and adding almost the same number of passenger as IR again!

There has been a MASSIVE growth in rail in Ireland. But it has been a focused growth, a focus on where the demand actually exists.

What you are saying here is what I think some people are doing, looking at old Victorian rail maps of Ireland and playing join the dots. It doesn't make sense, it ignores the significant road and motorway network all around it that have developed since and it ignores the needs and demand for modern public transport.

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

a personal interpretation that is likely to be correct.
i would certainly believe it to be the case.

You’d be wrong.....

end of the road

Zebra3 wrote: »

You are correct, but what has the WRC done for the IR network? The answer, as we all know, is nothing.

Most people on here, myself included, are pro-rail, but it's gotta be in the right place for it to be anyway viable. Sadly, this just isn't the case here.

You might get some politicians making noises about it to win a few votes, but I doubt any would really push for it and end up being associated with an utter failure and waste of millions and millions of euros of taxpayers' money.

it has reintroduced a healthy galway to limerick service which is likely to grow even further in the coming decades, in turn allowing less reason to have to engage in massive road expansion at huge cost.
as well as that, it allows for greater journey opportunities via rail for those who need to take those journeys via that medium.
so it has added to the network and it has saved us an even larger cost in the long term.
unsadly, viability is very much the case for the waterford to wexford line and the business case put forward by south east on track shows the line is viable if operated properly.
millions and millions of tax payer's money won't be wasted, the cost of rebuild/reinstatement is small in the great scheme of things and the costs that would have once made the line costly to run such as staffed gates and manual signalling won't exist.

PhilOssophy

A few general points as the thread has moved on:
1. There is still no update on the chaos that is getting the bus in Campile or Bridgetown daily. Since I haven't heard anything, I presume the question is being dodged because everybody knows there is no problem whatsoever with the existing bus service. If anything, I would suspect that is probably also heavily subsidised per passenger.
2. I don't see the link between the passenger numbers on the Rosslare-Dublin line. To me, that is a different discussion but if there isn't enough demand for a train between Gorey-Wexford to suit commuters, there is no demand for this line.
3. Having occasionally got the train to-from Dublin for work, south of Wicklow town there are 2 types of users - business people working, and free travel users. The train suits the free travel brigade because they are time rich and have a free travel pass. So just because they are alighting here and getting off there, does not mean the service is in demand or making money.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/business_case_for_withdrawl_of_rail_services1.pdf is the business case for the withdrawal of the service. Having scanned through it, points:
1. There was a train which arrived in Waterford at 8.20 - people above talked about the service not being good enough - to me, that is perfect time for commuters, especially given they need time to get anywhere from the train station in Waterford. If that isn't perfect time, then when is the optimum time for a train service? If that one isn't busy, then no other one will be either.
2. Operational costs of €1.1m per annum? For 25 passengers per day (i.e. 50 journeys). At a very generous €1.1m / (50x365) is over €60 euro per passenger journey. Crazy. (And note €1.1m opex cost will have gone up in the intervening period, and 365 could probably be 5/7ths of this.)
3. "A load factor of more than double would be required for revenue to cover the incremental costs." That is just not realistic.
4. They seem to have implemented most of the proposals in terms of bus services - is this not enough?

The time to keep a service running is when you have it, if you don't keep it the horse has bolted looking for it back. I would also add that I appreciate public transport requires financial subvention - even the NY Subway is subsidised - but it can't be at enormous cost for little or no benefit.

Del.Monte

@PhilOsspohy

I'm surprised you don't preface all you contributions '"I'm pro-rail but" as I have yet to see you post anything pro-rail and as for your summary of rail passenger type south of Wicklow as:

"3. Having occasionally got the train to-from Dublin for work, south of Wicklow town there are 2 types of users - business people working, and free travel users. The train suits the free travel brigade because they are time rich and have a free travel pass. So just because they are alighting here and getting off there, does not mean the service is in demand or making money. "

As a frequent user of the line I can tell you that you are talking nonsense. The trains carry a huge variety of people from those awful spongers (OAPs - if you're lucky you will be one yourself some day) to students, workers, shoppers, tourists etc. but why let the truth get in the way of your story.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

a personal interpretation that is likely to be correct.
i would certainly believe it to be the case.

What you believe and what you have evidence for are 2 very different things.

Sam Russell

Mod:
@DelMonte:
Please do not refer to train passengers as spongers. FTP passengers and students have valid tickets and as such still passengers.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

What you believe and what you have evidence for are 2 very different things.

the poster who made the original statements has provided as far as i'm concerned, sufficient evidence for me to agree with their viewpoint.

end of the road

Del.Monte wrote: »

@PhilOsspohy

I'm surprised you don't preface all you contributions '"I'm pro-rail but" as I have yet to see you post anything pro-rail and as for your summary of rail passenger type south of Wicklow as:

"3. Having occasionally got the train to-from Dublin for work, south of Wicklow town there are 2 types of users - business people working, and free travel users. The train suits the free travel brigade because they are time rich and have a free travel pass. So just because they are alighting here and getting off there, does not mean the service is in demand or making money. "

As a frequent user of the line I can tell you that you are talking nonsense. The trains carry a huge variety of people from those awful spongers (OAPs - if you're lucky you will be one yourself some day) to students, workers, shoppers, tourists etc. but why let the truth get in the way of your story.

100% correct del.monte as always and i can confirm the same as you have done so.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

A few general points as the thread has moved on:
1. There is still no update on the chaos that is getting the bus in Campile or Bridgetown daily. Since I haven't heard anything, I presume the question is being dodged because everybody knows there is no problem whatsoever with the existing bus service. If anything, I would suspect that is probably also heavily subsidised per passenger.
2. I don't see the link between the passenger numbers on the Rosslare-Dublin line. To me, that is a different discussion but if there isn't enough demand for a train between Gorey-Wexford to suit commuters, there is no demand for this line.
3. Having occasionally got the train to-from Dublin for work, south of Wicklow town there are 2 types of users - business people working, and free travel users. The train suits the free travel brigade because they are time rich and have a free travel pass. So just because they are alighting here and getting off there, does not mean the service is in demand or making money.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/business_case_for_withdrawl_of_rail_services1.pdf is the business case for the withdrawal of the service. Having scanned through it, points:
1. There was a train which arrived in Waterford at 8.20 - people above talked about the service not being good enough - to me, that is perfect time for commuters, especially given they need time to get anywhere from the train station in Waterford. If that isn't perfect time, then when is the optimum time for a train service? If that one isn't busy, then no other one will be either.
2. Operational costs of €1.1m per annum? For 25 passengers per day (i.e. 50 journeys). At a very generous €1.1m / (50x365) is over €60 euro per passenger journey. Crazy. (And note €1.1m opex cost will have gone up in the intervening period, and 365 could probably be 5/7ths of this.)
3. "A load factor of more than double would be required for revenue to cover the incremental costs." That is just not realistic.
4. They seem to have implemented most of the proposals in terms of bus services - is this not enough?

The time to keep a service running is when you have it, if you don't keep it the horse has bolted looking for it back. I would also add that I appreciate public transport requires financial subvention - even the NY Subway is subsidised - but it can't be at enormous cost for little or no benefit.

if you are looking for rail lines to make money then i'm afraid you are going to be hugely disappointed, they don't in this country and most and haven't done so since the actual hay day of the railways.
the people of ennis and beyond lost their service originally, they campaigned and got it back, the people of midleton lost their service and got it back, the people of navan, possibly tuam and youghal will one day get their services.
so your claim that the time to keep a service running is when you have it and when you don't the horse is bolted is not quite true, i'm afraid.

Working class heroes

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why don't you post something of substance instead of your usual sniping?

No need. The arguments put forward here for opening the line are so ridiculous they would actually convince someone sitting On the fence on this mater that the line should be bulldozed.
And again, if you have a problem with my posts, report them. It’s the little triangle thingy.

PhilOssophy

Del.Monte, let's just be VERY clear. I NOWHERE referred to anyone as a sponger.

I don't however for one second believe that a service can work without a critical mass of paying customers.

End of the road - what part of the last line of my previous post didn't you understand? Do you think €60 per passenger is value for money for a train service?

Why didn't you both address all the other points I raised? Instead of picking 1 and ignoring all the rest?

L1011

spacetweek wrote: »

It's about Rosslare and its freight to points west.

Rosslare is a ro-ro port with absolutely no intention or desire to add container services. Hence it has no rail-suitable freight and will have no rail-suitable freight. Its freight is full lorries, lorry trailers and new cars.

It is not obvious that it needs to add container services either; so it would be a gamble doing so - particularly as there is an established container port nearby with active rail freight services (and which does not need the South Wexford line to access any existing or future demand)

Sam Russell

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Del.Monte, let's just be VERY clear. I NOWHERE referred to anyone as a sponger.

I don't however for one second believe that a service can work without a critical mass of paying customers.

End of the road - what part of the last line of my previous post didn't you understand? Do you think €60 per passenger is value for money for a train service?

Why didn't you both address all the other points I raised? Instead of picking 1 and ignoring all the rest?

FTP passengers have valid tickets and so should be considered paying customers. It is Gov policy that gives them the FTP, s if you have a problem with them being on trains, take it up with your TDs. Your local TDs will be delighted to hear from you.

The real danger for Wexford train passengers is te shortage of them on the trains going to Rosslare from Wexford or going towards Dublin. That line is in danger.

Zebra3

end of the road wrote: »

it has reintroduced a healthy galway to limerick service which is likely to grow even further in the coming decades, in turn allowing less reason to have to engage in massive road expansion at huge cost.
as well as that, it allows for greater journey opportunities via rail for those who need to take those journeys via that medium.
so it has added to the network and it has saved us an even larger cost in the long term.
unsadly, viability is very much the case for the waterford to wexford line and the business case put forward by south east on track shows the line is viable if operated properly.
millions and millions of tax payer's money won't be wasted, the cost of rebuild/reinstatement is small in the great scheme of things and the costs that would have once made the line costly to run such as staffed gates and manual signalling won't exist.

Are you saying the WRC is a success?

And it does allow for greater journey opportunities via rail, but the reality is the public isn’t interested in using the WRC as a stand alone route or part of the wider network. The figures prove this beyond all doubt.

Yet you go on about the business case for reopening this line? Utterly bizarre.

PhilOssophy

Sam Russell wrote: »

FTP passengers have valid tickets and so should be considered paying customers. It is Gov policy that gives them the FTP, s if you have a problem with them being on trains, take it up with your TDs. Your local TDs will be delighted to hear from you.

The real danger for Wexford train passengers is te shortage of them on the trains going to Rosslare from Wexford or going towards Dublin. That line is in danger.

Where did I say I had any issue with the free travel system? You and Del Monte are the people who are saying this. Not me.

But none the less, it is not viable to operate or propose increasing services on a line when the ratio of paying passengers to free travel passengers is miniscule. This is basic maths and just because the tax payer is paying, that means it is coming out of all of our pockets - not some fairy tree of imaginary money.

Isambard

Sam Russell wrote: »

FTP passengers have valid tickets and so should be considered paying customers. It is Gov policy that gives them the FTP, s if you have a problem with them being on trains, take it up with your TDs. Your local TDs will be delighted to hear from you.

The real danger for Wexford train passengers is te shortage of them on the trains going to Rosslare from Wexford or going towards Dublin. That line is in danger.

Agree, if it wasn't for the subsidy for FTP passengers many lines would not be viable and might close or have a reduced service. Take away their cards and most won't travel by train.

PhilOssophy

Isambard wrote: »

Agree, if it wasn't for the subsidy for FTP passengers many lines would not be viable and might close or have a reduced service. Take away their cards and most won't travel by train.

So, how much per journey do you think is a reasonable subsidy? €5? €50? €500? Is there no point where a subsidy becomes a bad use of tax payers money?

Isambard

PhilOssophy wrote: »

So, how much per journey do you think is a reasonable subsidy? €5? €50? €500? Is there no point where a subsidy becomes a bad use of tax payers money?

Bit of a moot point, there's already a payment made to IE for FTP passengers, it's not on a per journey basis. It's a backdoor subsidy, the alternative to which is higher fares or lower services.

PhilOssophy

Isambard wrote: »

Bit of a moot point, there's already a payment made to IE for FTP passengers, it's not on a per journey basis. It's a backdoor subsidy, the alternative to which is higher fares or lower services.

Its not a moot point - do you think a service which is costing IE €500 per passenger is viable and should be continued? Or where is the point at which we realise we could hire a limo to drive people around cheaper than a train?

Zebra3

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Its not a moot point - do you think a service which is costing IE €500 per passenger is viable and should be continued? Or where is the point at which we realise we could hire a limo to drive people around cheaper than a train?

And at which point is rail travel actually environmentally unsound when the passenger numbers are so low?

Sam Russell

Mod: Please do not use the FTP tickets as an argument for opening or not opening the South Wexford line. The FTP is off topic.

The FTP is a valid ticket for a journey, even if the user has paid zero for the particular journey. Intercity journeys require a ticket per journey for holders of the FTP, while Dart journeys do not.

It is Gov policy to issue these FTP tickets, and it is partly a Government subsidy to public transport, or a way of filling an otherwise underused service, but it is also seen as valuable to allow and encourage the holders of the FTP to increase their social mobility and interaction, and so increase their independence. This has a positive effect on their wellbeing and reduces the cost of health support in some way that would otherwise be needed to support the holders.

Referring users of the FTP as spongers or similar language is totally unacceptable, and will earn posters who do use that type of language a sanction.

If you have a problem with the FTP or its users, take it to the politics forum, or your local TD. It is not an issue here.

If you disagree with this notice PM me.

Regards

PhilOssophy

OK - adjusting to the newly changed goal posts, there just isn't the demand or the population density, to justify re-opening this line.
Note - only 1 poster above referred to the FTP as spongers. I do not hold such a view of OAP's.
Sorry for disputing if this is the best way of spending 100m + 1m per annum in Opex costs to carry a handful of passengers on a diesel train around south Wexford. If "who is paying for it" isn't a reasonable question, then there is no further debate to be had. A subvention of €500 per passenger journey is a sinful waste of tax payers money and if that isn't part of any debate on such services, then there is no debate. Its just coming off the invisible money tree I suppose.

Nobody in favour of the above could defend the points I raised either about the existing bus services in Campile/Bridgetown or the points I raised on the business case for why the line was closed in the first place. So I guess that's all she wrote.

Unfollowing.

riddlinrussell

PhilOssophy wrote: »

OK - adjusting to the newly changed goal posts, there just isn't the demand or the population density, to justify re-opening this line.
Note - only 1 poster above referred to the FTP as spongers. I do not hold such a view of OAP's.
Sorry for disputing if this is the best way of spending 100m + 1m per annum in Opex costs to carry a handful of passengers on a diesel train around south Wexford. If "who is paying for it" isn't a reasonable question, then there is no further debate to be had. A subvention of €500 per passenger journey is a sinful waste of tax payers money and if that isn't part of any debate on such services, then there is no debate. Its just coming off the invisible money tree I suppose.

Nobody in favour of the above could defend the points I raised either about the existing bus services in Campile/Bridgetown or the points I raised on the business case for why the line was closed in the first place. So I guess that's all she wrote.

Unfollowing.

I would be in full agreement with you on €500 per passenger Journey being a waste of taxpayer money, with one caveat accurate assessment of the environmental, heath and economic impact of the service. If good metrics can be gotten for these and a savings estimate can be gotten per passenger in other areas, then this new 'cost-to-benefit' should be used as a yardstick for all projects. Would make it much harder to sell a road project vs a railway, or greenway.

riddlinrussell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I would be in full agreement with you on €500 per passenger Journey being a waste of taxpayer money, with one caveat accurate assessment of the environmental, heath and economic impact of the service. If good metrics can be gotten for these and a savings estimate can be gotten per passenger in other areas, then this new 'cost-to-benefit' should be used as a yardstick for all projects. Would make it much harder to sell a road project vs a railway, or greenway.

That would be the Public Sector Spending Code which must be used to assess all projects against the same set of criteria including greenhouse gas emissions etc

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/public-spending-code/

All Irish public bodies are obliged to treat public funds with care, and to ensure that the best possible value for money is obtained whenever public money is being spent or invested.

There are no mathematical hoops that can be jumped through which will be put this project ahead of other, more beneficial projects, simple as

riddlinrussell

Deleted User wrote: »

That would be the Public Sector Spending Code which must be used to assess all projects against the same set of criteria including greenhouse gas emissions etc

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/public-spending-code/



There are no mathematical hoops that can be jumped through which will be put this project ahead of other, more beneficial projects, simple as

I'm aware it already exists, given the impact of pollution and environmental damage I am arguing a far heavier weighting for pollution, health and other environmental damage in the code, rather than a new system.