Should Wexford Waterford line reopen?

reddituser123 wrote: »

Despite what some random people online say, I will continue to believe that a rail service with a proper timetable and decent promotion running from Wexford town to Waterford
would get passengers.

You can continue to hold that belief. We all have our beliefs. But then there's cold hard cash to be stumped up. I think that's when the belief has to be backed up by fact, demand, and planning. I don't believe there is anything like the demand - there wasn't even the demand to run a bus from Enniscorthy to Waterford through Clonroche?

Its worth noting that the subvention in the Ballybrophy-Limerick train line is €550 per PASSENGER. Don't forget that the Capex costs to build the line are 1 thing - the Opex costs are the real killer as they are the on-going costs year in year out. Money which can absolutely find a better home in our country than some romantic notion of a demand which just isn't there.

You can always tell demand based on services like Wexford Bus - they only put on buses where there's business justification, because it hits their bottom line. If they can't even justify more than a handful of buses a day, how are you justifying a outrageously expensive train line?

reddituser123 wrote: »

Wilful ignorance, or they don't know anything about the area.

Neither of these are true. Many of us know the area, or live in the real world.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Plot twist indeed.

I would never guessed that Waterford was a city and Wexford was a 'big town'. This 'big town' only warrants three trains a day to Dublin, the biggest city in Ireland. Now how many trains will be warranted to go across the coastal route to Waterford, to Rosslare?

Looking at Wikipedia, it has this quote you might be interested in:


Wikipedia also states that the line is not in full IE ownership - it is part owned by Stena.

Now, it never ever had a frequent service, and if it did not have one over a hundred years ago when there were next to no cars on the road, how will it generate traffic now?

Look, there are better rail projects that need attention than this. Concentrate on Wexford to Dublin before that closes. Three trains per day is not enough to keep it open.

That you're resorting to Wikipedia for your 'facts' says a lot. When was the line "reopened"?

I note that 'citation needed' is widely mentioned on that Wiiki page.

riddlinrussell wrote: »

The things you are talking about is exactly my point though!

Fighting to open this line right now while the lines either side are being left to rot is just bonkers, fight to protect and revitalize the lines that are there before trying to resuscitate the dead one!



Again, I don't know if you are getting this, but I'm not anti-rail I desperately want rail invested in. I want to see the routes currently getting the Waterford-Rosslare line treatment from CIE (Passing loops removed, illogical timetabling) saved and back to sensible service patterns. The best way to do this is NOT to restore another route that IE will want to run into the ground again, its to improve the rest of the network to the point where they can more easily afford to restore this line.

I actually really agree with you here. I am still very much in favour of reopening Rosslare-Waterford, but I do think that improving the services on Rosslare-Dublin and LimerickJunction-Waterford should be done first, and I thought this before you made this point. I even started a thread a few months ago in the Train & Rail Systems forum where I expressed my view on the LimerickJunction-Waterford line, and came up with potential timetables for it which I think would be an improvement over the current one.
The thread is here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058097224

bk wrote: »

Funny, that, I was just wondering, if the people who propose mad rural rail projects like this in Ireland and say things like rail will take people out of their cars, have ever actually frequently used rail in Ireland. In particular in rural areas. It ain't fun and it ain't particularly attractive.

My estimates for the amount of people who would use the Waterford-Rosslare line if reopened are based entirely on the amount of people who already make other journeys by train, on other lines in the country.

ohographite wrote: »

The Dublin-Rosslare railway was used for over 1000 journeys a day before the lockdown started, even though Wexford Bus operate a parallel bus service which is faster, cheaper and more frequent. That is a reason why I think some people prefer the train to the bus.
I think that some people are encouraged out of their cars by buses only, some people are encouraged out of their cars by trains only, some are encouraged out of their cars by both, and some are encouraged out of their cars by neither.

They might, but if you're trying to say that a Waterford - Rosslare line would get 560 pax, when Wexford town to the Capital City gets 1,000, then you are simply spoofing out of yourself.

Larbre34 wrote: »

They might, but if you're trying to say that a Waterford - Rosslare line would get 560 pax, when Wexford town to the Capital City gets 1,000, then you are simply spoofing out of yourself.

I still don't think that's a too optimistic estimate when you consider the Waterford-Rosslare line could be used to make train journeys from Waterford to any of the towns on the Dublin-Rosslare line, or from any of the towns on the Dublin-Rosslare line to anywhere on the Dublin-Waterford line, or anywhere on the Limerick-Waterford line, or even from Dublin to the villages between Wexford and Waterford.

ohographite wrote: »

I still don't think that's a too optimistic estimate when you consider the Waterford-Rosslare line could be used to make train journeys from Waterford to any of the towns on the Dublin-Rosslare line, or from any of the towns on the Dublin-Rosslare line to anywhere on the Dublin-Waterford line, or anywhere on the Limerick-Waterford line, or even from Dublin to the villages between Wexford and Waterford.

I think its not just optimistic. Its delusional.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I think its not just optimistic. Its delusional.

I don't see why it is delusional. I explained in post #21 earlier in this thread how I arrived at my estimate.
I will repost it here:

I have estimated that the Rosslare-Waterford line would be used for 560 journeys a day, if reopened with the following:
A train from Waterford that arrives at Wexford around 08:30(continuing to Dublin) and (coming from Dublin)departs Wexford for Waterford around 17:30
A train from Wexford that arrives at Waterford at 8:30 and departs Waterford for Wexford around 17:30
As well as those, 5 off-peak return trains from Dublin to Waterford via Wexford, with the ex Waterford ones departing Waterford just after either an arrival from Limerick Junction or an arrival from Dublin, and with the arrivals into Waterford arriving just before a departure for Limerick Junction or Dublin.

This would produce a service that suits people living in Waterford and working in Wexford(and vice versa), and it would connect all the towns on the Dublin-Carlow-Waterford line with all the towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line(the timetable in operation in 2010 did not allow this, since there was an Enniscorthy to Waterford train that departed Enniscorthy earlier in the day than any train from Dublin arrived, and that returned to Enniscorthy later in the day than any train to Dublin departed). It would also connect all the towns on the Waterford-Limerick line to all the towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line.

Below is an explanation of how I estimated 560 journeys a day:

-Waterford-Wexford journeys: estimated 170 journeys a day(similar to the 2019 daily Waterford-Kilkenny journeys in the NTA Heavy Rail Census Report 2019)

-Journeys from the villages on the Waterford-Rosslare line(Campile, Ballycullane, Wellingtonbridge, and Bridgetown) to Wexford and Dublin combined: 200 journeys a day(this comes from the 210 journeys a day to or from Ballymote in the NTA Heavy Rail Census Report 2019) I am comparing Ballymote to 4 villages in South Wexford, because Ballymote has a similar population to those 4 villages combined, so I think Ballymote-Sligo demand is similar to the demand from the 4 villages to Wexford town, and I think Ballymote-Dublin demand would equal the demand from the 4 villages to Dublin.

-Journeys from/to Waterford to/from the towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line(including Bray, Enniscorthy and all intermediate towns with stations): 120 journeys a day. This estimate admittedly has less of a basis than the previous ones. There was some report I read(I can't remember what year it was, 2015 I think) that showed that the amount of journeys on the Dublin-Carlow-Waterford line that were made from Dublin to Waterford(not including journeys that used an intermediate station) was, on average, 38 per train. That same year, the amount of boardings and alightings on trains to/from Dublin in Waterford was, on average, 60 per train. So if you subtract 38 from 60 you have 22. If you subtract 12(the per train average amount of Waterford-Kilkenny journeys) from 22, you get 10 per train. So the amount of journeys made to/from Waterford that involved neither Kilkenny nor Dublin was, on average, 10 per train.
I am guessing that the amount of journeys made to/from Waterford from/to all the towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line(including Bray, Enniscorthy and all the intermediate towns with stations) would also be, on average, 10 per train. The service I am suggesting in this post includes 6 trains from Waterford to all these towns, and 6 trains from them back to Waterford, so 12 in total, and 12 multiplied by 10 is 120, so that's how I arrived at my estimate of 120 journeys a day.

-Journeys from towns on the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line(including Bray, Wexford and all intermediate towns with stations) to towns on the Waterford-Limerick line and towns on the Dublin-Carlow-Waterford line: 60 journeys a day.
I'll admit this has no basis whatsoever, but with the service I'm suggesting in this post including 5 return trains a day(10 in total) connecting the Dublin-Wicklow-Wexford line to the other 2 lines, I'd say 60 such journeys a day could be achieved(6 per train on average)

So, to recap:
Wexford TO/FROM Waterford:170 journeys a day
South Wexford villages TO/FROM Dublin & Wexford: 210 journeys a day
Waterford TO/FROM towns between Bray & Enniscorthy inclusive: 120 journeys a day
Towns on Limerick-Waterford & Dublin-Waterford lines TO/FROM towns between Bray and Wexford inclusive: 60 journeys a day

170 + 210 + 120 + 60 = 560.

So that is where my estimate of 560 journeys a day comes from.

Deleted User wrote: »

I did, still not a strong enough justification to put it ahead of Dart+, Metro, etc.

In fact, IE themselves have no intention of looking to get that line opened. Their priorities for the next decade are

• 4 tracking Hazelhatch – Kildare and 3 tracking Kildare to Portarlington on Cork Line
• 3 or 4 tracking north of Connolly to Malahide on Belfast Line
• Double tracking sections of Intercity network to facilitate reliable services at increased frequencies, with second platforms at existing stations including:
• Double tracking Portarlington – Athlone
• Double tracking Maynooth – Mullingar / Longford
• Double tracking Athenry – Oranmore – Galway
• Dynamic passing Loops / additional platforms Limerick – Limerick Junction
• Additional platform at Millstreet on Tralee Line
• Additional platform at Woodlawn on Galway Line
• Passing loop between Claremorris and Westport
• Reconfiguration of Sligo station and passing loop at Ballymote
• Passing loop at Sixmilebridge on Ennis line

This is the nub of the issue to me.
I have nothing whatsoever against the opening of the Wexford Waterford line. Sounds great. But realistically it's towards the "dream" end of the projects list rather than the "imminent" end.

If you told me it would be considered again 15-20 years from now I'd think it a reasonably big achievement.

Hi Ohographite. You are deluded. Even if you think you're not, you are. Absolutely nobody is talking about reopening this line, ever. Even the Green party. That should tell you everything you need to know.