Should Wexford Waterford line reopen?

Markcheese

It's mainly down to population and trip generators , are there many potential passengers who want to go wexford- waterford ,
And would the train even take them where they want to go ..
What's the train going to do that a well run coach service can't ? ,With a lot less fuss ,and probably quicker and more conveniently ..

PhilOssophy

ohographite wrote: »

I bet that the railway could have attracted much higher demand if it had had a better service when it was open.
I know some people who drive from their villages to train stations, and take the train from there.
I do not like being referred to as deluded.

There just isn't the population to demand more trains. I know plenty of people who do the same, but it is inevitably driving to a big town with a service to a big city.

I presume if there's enough demand for this train service then the existing bus service to Waterford and Wexford through Campile/Bridgetown/etc is at breaking point?

riddlinrussell

PhilOssophy wrote: »

There just isn't the population to demand more trains. I know plenty of people who do the same, but it is inevitably driving to a big town with a service to a big city.

I presume if there's enough demand for this train service then the existing bus service to Waterford and Wexford through Campile/Bridgetown/etc is at breaking point?

The claim has been made that there are people who would get the train who won't take a bus, I don't know if there is evidence available to back this up? Outside of a location with an oversubscribed bus service...

Unless there is a capacity issue a bus service should be sufficient for the route, if you have good data analysis you can optimise a bus route to maximise uptake by routing to where people actually want to go (E.g. you could swing past WIT on the way in to Waterford City or stop at business parks to collect commuters etc)

Rail is fixed, so good planning of things needs to happen around rail, and Ireland is not exactly famed for its sensible application of planning.

Rail made sense blanketing the country when it was the fastest way to travel but now it is only one component of a sustainable network. Low traffic routes are far better served by a fast and reliable bus service (Not saying this exists currently, but it should)

Driving more people to use trains and enforced planning of high density around stations is vital for modal shift, but some places are simply never going to reach the demand levels required to support rail again.

PhilOssophy

riddlinrussell wrote: »

The claim has been made that there are people who would get the train who won't take a bus, I don't know if there is evidence available to back this up? Outside of a location with an oversubscribed bus service...

Unless there is a capacity issue a bus service should be sufficient for the route, if you have good data analysis you can optimise a bus route to maximise uptake by routing to where people actually want to go (E.g. you could swing past WIT on the way in to Waterford City or stop at business parks to collect commuters etc)

Rail is fixed, so good planning of things needs to happen around rail, and Ireland is not exactly famed for its sensible application of planning.

Rail made sense blanketing the country when it was the fastest way to travel but now it is only one component of a sustainable network. Low traffic routes are far better served by a fast and reliable bus service (Not saying this exists currently, but it should)

Driving more people to use trains and enforced planning of high density around stations is vital for modal shift, but some places are simply never going to reach the demand levels required to support rail again.

I agree with every line of that. The only way rail works is if the end-to-end density is there, i.e. where people are coming from and going to are of sufficient population and employment density. Expecting students in WIT to use the train from Campile, when it leaves them miles away from the campus, is ridiculous. As you say, the bus can easily drop people off. And if there's demand, and a route is making money, then you put on another bus, and another bus, and another, to cater for the demand.

But I won't judge until I hear of the chaos that is getting a seat on the bus in Campile......

Isambard

the basic problem is that we don't need the return of a 19th century railway, we need, where appropriate, 21st century railways.

Otherwise you get Ennis to Athenry rather than LUAS type of light railways.

Wexford/Rosslare to Waterford on the old alignment serves a sparsely populated area which isn't well served by road (New Ross bridge not withstanding), but there would be no need for this and other lines to be heavy rail where there is no freight potential.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can I remind posters that it is against the charter to attack posters, rather than the post. Calling posters names or other unseemly attributes is not acceptable.

Be aware that this thread is about the South Wexford line from Waterford to Rosslare - only.

Del.Monte

Currently if one wishes to travel between Enniscorthy and Waterford a change of buses at Wexford is involved and the journey time has become an hour and a half compared to one hour on the now withdrawn BE direct service.



The last time that I used the service, the return journey was running late and involved me being left off a the wrong side of the road at a roundabout outside Wexford to catch the Enniscorthy bus - very safe! Consequently, I no longer travel to Waterford unless absolutely necessary - their loss, my inconvenience.

bk

Del.Monte wrote: »

Currently if one wishes to travel between Enniscorthy and Waterford a change of buses at Wexford is involved and the journey time has become an hour and a half compared to one hour on the now withdrawn BE direct service.

Sure, but that doesn't justify reopening a rail if anything it is the opposite.

If a direct service is required between Waterford and Enniscorthy, then subsidising a PSO coach service to do it would cost a fraction of re-opening the rail line. And it would certainly be much faster then via rail on a Wexford to Waterford line.

This actually shows how little demand there is on these routes. It can't even justify a much cheaper to operate coach service!

But it also shows how spending the same money in the same region could go much further if you were for instance to spend it on improving PSO coach and bus services in the region.

Del.Monte

bk wrote: »

Sure, but that doesn't justify reopening a rail if anything it is the opposite.

If a direct service is required between Waterford and Enniscorthy, then subsidising a PSO coach service to do it would cost a fraction of re-opening the rail line. And it would certainly be much faster then via rail on a Wexford to Waterford line.

This actually shows how little demand there is on these routes. It can't even justify a much cheaper to operate coach service!

But it also shows how spending the same money in the same region could go much further if you were for instance to spend it on improving PSO coach and bus services in the region.

The direct service was BE, well used and withdrawn without any consultation. Anyway, I don't want the line reopened just so that I can commute from Enniscorthy and you , like many other posters here are being deliberately obtuse. There are multiple reasons: passengers from anywhere south of Dun Laogahire could travel to Waterford via Rosslare quicker than via Heuston; boat passengers (to and from Rosslare) of which there will be a growing number as the days of cheap air travel will go the way of the Dodo; if properly marketed as it was in pre-CIE days it could be part of a tourist package Dublin (Heuston) - Waterfor - /Dublin (Connolly). Of course all of these journeys could be undertaken in a glorified ice cream like those that operate existing 'Local Link' services.

ohographite

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Rail made sense blanketing the country when it was the fastest way to travel but now it is only one component of a sustainable network. Low traffic routes are far better served by a fast and reliable bus service (Not saying this exists currently, but it should)

Reopening railways aside, I really think it is a realistic aim to keep what is left of Ireland's Railway Network, and make it work better.
I think the two railways in Ireland that have the lowest traffic (Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy and Limerickjunction-Waterford) would have higher traffic if they were given an improved service.
I think that they would attract some people who wouldn't have been taking buses already, because some other railways in the country typically attract significant patronage even with a good bus service parallel to them.
For example, Dublin-Rosslare was used for about 1000 journeys a day(100 per train) in 2019, even though there was a faster, cheaper and more frequent Wexford bus service running parallel to it.
So if people still use a train service that is inferior to a parallel bus service, I would say it means they easily prefer trains to buses, and/or that they wouldn't take the bus, even without a train.
That is why I accept that a bus service is a much cheaper way to provide public transport from Wexford to Waterford than a railway, but I still think a railway would attract people who wouldn't take a bus.

Working class heroes

Del.Monte wrote: »

The direct service was BE, well used and withdrawn without any consultation. Anyway, I don't want the line reopened just so that I can commute from Enniscorthy and you , like many other posters here are being deliberately obtuse. There are multiple reasons: passengers from anywhere south of Dun Laogahire could travel to Waterford via Rosslare quicker than via Heuston; boat passengers (to and from Rosslare) of which there will be a growing number as the days of cheap air travel will go the way of the Dodo; if properly marketed as it was in pre-CIE days it could be part of a tourist package Dublin (Heuston) - Waterfor - /Dublin (Connolly). Of course all of these journeys could be undertaken in a glorified ice cream like those that operate existing 'Local Link' services.

Sorry but there is no substance in this post. Loads of ifs buts with a sprinkle of assumptions.

end of the road

ohographite wrote: »

Reopening railways aside, I really think it is a realistic aim to keep what is left of Ireland's Railway Network, and make it work better.
I think the two railways in Ireland that have the lowest traffic (Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy and Limerickjunction-Waterford) would have higher traffic if they were given an improved service.
I think that they would attract some people who wouldn't have been taking buses already, because some other railways in the country typically attract significant patronage even with a good bus service parallel to them.
For example, Dublin-Rosslare was used for about 1000 journeys a day(100 per train) in 2019, even though there was a faster, cheaper and more frequent Wexford bus service running parallel to it.
So if people still use a train service that is inferior to a parallel bus service, I would say it means they easily prefer trains to buses, and/or that they wouldn't take the bus, even without a train.
That is why I accept that a bus service is a much cheaper way to provide public transport from Wexford to Waterford than a railway, but I still think a railway would attract people who wouldn't take a bus.

exactly this.
the supposed lack of demand or not for a bus does not prove the same for rail ultimately, the suggestion it does is a trope going back as far as i can remember.
both are different market and user bases even if there will be usage overlap between the 2 by some.

bk

Del.Monte wrote: »

The direct service was BE, well used and withdrawn without any consultation.

You mean BE Expressway, the commercial arm of BE. Obviously not well enough used to be viable or Expressway wouldn't have withdrawn it. Nor are they required to consultant with anyone on changes to commercial services.

If BE can't even justify a coach service on the route, then there is certainly no justification for a much more expensive rail service.

If there really is the demand there that you seem to be suggesting, then the people living in the region would be much better advised to campaign for an improved direct PSO coach service, which would cost a fraction of the cost of this line and deliver a faster service.

end of the road

a coach does not provide a faster service on this route and never will.
the railway was and still would be if opened, the quickest route, followed by the car ferry.

purplepanda

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Basing things on my own cycle commute, Campile, Ballycullane and Wellingtonbridge are all within the same radius from Waterford, so it would make Waterford a 'feasible' commute from those towns, and the same the other way to Rosslare. I'm not saying there would be many takers for that, but the possibility exists.

Even if the Greenway is built from Wellington Bridge to Campile it won't be going across the existing Barrow river railway bridge onward to Waterford, the cost of converting this bridge for cyclist & pedestrian access would be very expensive, & obviously dangerous due to the bridge opening & closing for shipping.

Waterford Council have already recently gone on record as opposing a Greenway being built on the Kilkenny & Waterford section of the existing railway.

So that means that any Greenway commuters & users would then have to travel down local roads for another 6.6Km from Campile to access the Ballyhack - Passage East Ferry to actually get to Waterford City.

Far better to build a dedicated Cycleway route from Wellington Bridge direct to Ballyhack - Passage East Ferry & avoid having to access Ballyhack on local roads.

This route would also allow direct access to Waterford City & Greenway, plus Dunmore East, Tramore & the surrounding region. It would be a far more scenic route to Waterford than the existing railway route, which passes by power stations, container ports & industry on the way.

Any Greenway or dedicated Cycleway project for South Wexford needs to be properly connected to the coastal regions, visitor attractions, holiday resorts & villages near the sea, such as Kilmore Quay, Ballyteige / Duncormack beach, Ladys Island, Bannow, and the Ring of Hook.

bk

ohographite wrote: »

For example, Dublin-Rosslare was used for about 1000 journeys a day(100 per train) in 2019, even though there was a faster, cheaper and more frequent Wexford bus service running parallel to it.
So if people still use a train service that is inferior to a parallel bus service, I would say it means they easily prefer trains to buses, and/or that they wouldn't take the bus, even without a train.

The majority of that 1,000 people board the train at Greystones and Wicklow. If you look at the 2019 rail census, you see you are talking about very few of people boarding at Rosslare or Wexford.

ohographite wrote: »

That is why I accept that a bus service is a much cheaper way to provide public transport from Wexford to Waterford than a railway, but I still think a railway would attract people who wouldn't take a bus.

But why?

If you have a car, people simply aren't going to drive to a train station and take the train, if the car is faster door to door for them.

Why would you leave the comfort of your own car, the faster journey speed and the flexibility to leave at whatever time you want, to make stops at the shops along the way, etc. only to get on a old diesel rural train that takes longer and is on a fixed timetable and you have to walk on the other end!

I really don't get the logic here?

We aren't talking about nice Italian high speed rail trains here, having travelled on trains all over Ireland, there isn't anything particularity attractive about them. They can be fine, but they aren't anything special.

Most people couldn't care less about trains. They don't have any attachment to them. If the door to door journey time is significantly faster by train then by car, then sure they will do the logical thing and take the train. But it really needs to be faster, a lot faster, not just like 10 minutes faster, but at least 20 minutes if not more. Otherwise people will stay in their cars.

People aren't attracted out of their cars by trains. They are attracted out of cars by faster door to door journey times. If that is a train, then great, but if it is a Dublin Bus or coach on a bus lane, they are happy to take those too.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

a coach does not provide a faster service on this route and never will.
the railway was and still would be if opened, the quickest route, followed by the car ferry.

Waterford to Enniscorthy that Del.Monte was talking about?

That is much faster by bus, then it would be by Waterford to Wexford to Enniscorthy by rail. Best case scenario, by rail would be 20 minutes slower.

ohographite

bk wrote: »

The majority of that 1,000 people board the train at Greystones and Wicklow. If you look at the 2019 rail census, you see you are talking about very few of people boarding at Rosslare or Wexford.

The people who travelled from Dublin to Wicklow or vice versa were not included in the figure of 1000 a day. The 1000 journeys a day were all made to or from somewhere south of Wicklow. In the 2019 heavy rail census, the number of daily northbound boardings and daily southbound alightings in all the stations south of Wicklow combined is 965, which isn't far below 1000.
I think that census shows only the journeys made on the day it was taken on, which means that the day it was taken on was probably slightly less busy than the average day in 2019.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

We aren't talking about nice Italian high speed rail trains here, having travelled on trains all over Ireland, there isn't anything particularity attractive about them. They can be fine, but they aren't anything special.

I remember getting the train a few years ago from Heuston to Ennis. Heuston to Limerick Junction was great a nice smooth intercity train. Change at LJ to a commuter train that was full. Noisy, very uncomfortable, and rickety. Got to Limerick Colby.

Obviously needed to change to the Ennis train, but no sign of it. Took a while for me to realise I was on it, had to get back on, but my seat was taken but found another.

I do not think that journey would have me taking that route by choice again. Belfast Dublin is great except for the time of the 'trouble on the line at Portadown' so bus transfer to Belfast from Newry. It was quicker by bus than train.

Intercity is great. Dart is great. After that - I don't know. I am not a fan of bendy buses or rickety tickety trains.

Markcheese

end of the road wrote: »

exactly this.
the supposed lack of demand or not for a bus does not prove the same for rail ultimately, the suggestion it does is a trope going back as far as i can remember.
both are different market and user bases even if there will be usage overlap between the 2 by some.

Funnily enough , I think a decent direct express coach service will beat the train hands down ,
I'm thinking of something like the cobh express in cork ( and soon the mallow express ) , and that's the commuter routes ,there are also 2 companies doing hourly cork to Dublin/Dublin airport express service ,
It's just more flexible and cheaper , and no slower really ...

end of the road

ohographite wrote: »

The people who travelled from Dublin to Wicklow or vice versa were not included in the figure of 1000 a day. The 1000 journeys a day were all made to or from somewhere south of Wicklow. In the 2019 heavy rail census, the number of daily northbound boardings and daily southbound alightings in all the stations south of Wicklow combined is 965, which isn't far below 1000. I think that census shows only the journeys made on the day it was taken on, which means that the day it was taken on was probably slightly less busy than the average day in 2019.

exactly, it only shows the boardings on that date.
it's perhapse better then nothing, but realistically not really very reliable in practice outside showing the numbers on the specific date because traffic is not static on the railway, and never has been.
in my personal experience you could have a really busy train on 1 day at a particular time, and the next day it would be less busy and the following day a bit busier or even busier then the previous busy day.

Sam Russell

Why do they not use the fare-box as a measure of demand on the line?

Do they not bother collecting fares anymore?

In the last five years I have had my Dart ticket checked by Revenue Protection twice. I would have thought that they would be a visible presence on the line every day.

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

Funnily enough , I think a decent direct express coach service will beat the train hands down ,
I'm thinking of something like the cobh express in cork ( and soon the mallow express ) , and that's the commuter routes ,there are also 2 companies doing hourly cork to Dublin/Dublin airport express service ,
It's just more flexible and cheaper , and no slower really ...

it won't as the road journey time just cannot compete with the quicker journey the railway offered and would offer if reopened.
if express coaches were genuinely the answer to everything there would be no rail reopening campaigns anywhere ever.

bk

ohographite wrote: »

The people who travelled from Dublin to Wicklow or vice versa were not included in the figure of 1000 a day. The 1000 journeys a day were all made to or from somewhere south of Wicklow. In the 2019 heavy rail census, the number of daily northbound boardings and daily southbound alightings in all the stations south of Wicklow combined is 965, which isn't far below 1000.
I think that census shows only the journeys made on the day it was taken on, which means that the day it was taken on was probably slightly less busy than the average day in 2019.

I have no idea where you are getting that number from so?!

The 2019 rail census shows a total of 1023 boardings Northbound including Greystones and Wicklow. South of Wicklow you have just 413 boardings.

The rail census is taken on an average day, that is the point of it and why the day is carefully chosen.

Rosslare Euro Port 12
Rosslare Strand 25
Wexford 83
Enniscorthy 32
Gorey 74
Arklow 89
Rathdrum 98
Wicklow 228
Kilcoole 59
Greystones 323
Total 1,023

bk

end of the road wrote: »

it won't as the road journey time just cannot compete with the quicker journey the railway offered and would offer if reopened.
if express coaches were genuinely the answer to everything there would be no rail reopening campaigns anywhere ever.

Again, which road journey? Waterford to Enniscorthy would be definitely faster by coach.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

I remember getting the train a few years ago from Heuston to Ennis. Heuston to Limerick Junction was great a nice smooth intercity train. Change at LJ to a commuter train that was full. Noisy, very uncomfortable, and rickety. Got to Limerick Colby.

Obviously needed to change to the Ennis train, but no sign of it. Took a while for me to realise I was on it, had to get back on, but my seat was taken but found another.

I do not think that journey would have me taking that route by choice again. Belfast Dublin is great except for the time of the 'trouble on the line at Portadown' so bus transfer to Belfast from Newry. It was quicker by bus than train.

Intercity is great. Dart is great. After that - I don't know. I am not a fan of bendy buses or rickety tickety trains.

i have had the misfortune of having to indure those suburban railcars myself on what is a non-suburban journey, so i am with you.
also not being informed that the train would run right through to ennis is inexcusable and is typical of irish rail failing on the basics.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why do they not use the fare-box as a measure of demand on the line?

Do they not bother collecting fares anymore?

In the last five years I have had my Dart ticket checked by Revenue Protection twice. I would have thought that they would be a visible presence on the line every day.

years ago revenue protection would have been on every train bar perhapse dart and maybe commuter as well.
now days they would perhapse argue it's a greater cost then what may be collected/saved, but even if they are right, revenue is revenue and it should be protected and collected, even if it means you are paying a bit more for staff.
it's about the principal really.

ohographite

bk wrote: »

I have no idea where you are getting that number from so?!

The 2019 rail census shows a total of 1023 boardings Northbound including Greystones and Wicklow. South of Wicklow you have just 413 boardings.

The rail census is taken on an average day, that is the point of it and why the day is carefully chosen.

Rosslare Euro Port 12
Rosslare Strand 25
Wexford 83
Enniscorthy 32
Gorey 74
Arklow 89
Rathdrum 98
Wicklow 228
Kilcoole 59
Greystones 323
Total 1,023

There were also southbound alightings in the same census, and all the southbound alightings south of Greystones combined makes 552. The 552 southbound alightings combined with the 413 northbound boardings as mentioned in your post makes 965 journeys south of Wicklow on census day 2019.

Rosslare Europort 16
Rosslare Strand 54
Wexford 132
Enniscorthy 52
Gorey 101
Arklow 115
Rathdrum 82
Wicklow 202
Kilcoole 65
Greystones 193

Total(including Wicklow, Kilcoole and Greystones): 1012

To answer your question of where I got 1000 journeys a day from, 384, 300 journeys on Dublin-Rosslare in 2019(1058 a day) is mentioned here: http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.php?year=2020&no=2.html

I know that that source also has 338, 100 as the number of Dublin-Wicklow journeys made in 2019, but I don't think they are included in the slightly higher figure of 384, 300 Dublin-Rosslare journeys.
I think this because 965 journeys south of Wicklow on census day 2019 is close to the daily average if 1058 journeys a day was the daily average, which it would be if the 394, 300 journeys only included south of Wicklow.

My point originally was that if 1000 journeys a day(before the lockdown) were made on the Dublin-Rosslare line south of Wicklow, which is in competition with a faster, cheaper and more frequent bus service, it means that the people who made those journeys really prefer the train to the bus, and if they're still not taking the bus when it offers speed, value and frequency, it might mean they would not take the bus even without a train, and they would travel by car instead if there was no train.

ohographite

ohographite wrote: »

it means that the people who made those journeys really prefer the train to the bus, and if they're still not taking the bus when it offers speed, value and frequency, it might mean they would not take the bus even without a train, and they would travel by car instead if there was no train.

Careful now, you are again interpreting data to suit your own agenda here without anything to back up your interpretation. Unless you have data related to modal choice you can't infer anything of this nature when looking at those numbers.

If you have that data, by all means share it for review, otherwise your personal interpretation is nothing more than just that, a personal interpretation

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Careful now, you are again interpreting data to suit your own agenda here without anything to back up your interpretation. Unless you have data related to modal choice you can't infer anything of this nature when looking at those numbers.

If you have that data, by all means share it for review, otherwise your personal interpretation is nothing more than just that, a personal interpretation

a personal interpretation that is likely to be correct.
i would certainly believe it to be the case.

Del.Monte

Working class heroes wrote: »

Sorry but there is no substance in this post. Loads of ifs buts with a sprinkle of assumptions.

Why don't you post something of substance instead of your usual sniping?