Science is a poor career choice - Covid effect on CAO applications

BrianD3 · 09-03-2021 5:31pm #1

There has been a 21% increase in CAO applications for biological science courses and this is being attributed to the Covid pandemic. The likes of Luke O'Neill appearing in the media very regularly will probably be spiking interest.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/covid-effect-spikes-interest-in-some-courses-as-college-demand-surges-40175171.html

If we define science as the fields of chemistry, biology and physics, it is a poor career choice. If someone has one of the more practical degrees aimed at the pharma industry, maybe they'll get a job as a QC analyst in a factory earning less than the admin staff and production operatives.

If they major in any biological science, they're likely to end up not getting a job at all and being forced down the route of a PhD. Once they finish that, they might get a postdoc contract but it will short. Emigration may be necessary for the next contract. Suddenly, they find themselves 40 years old with a very uncertain career, earning less than lads working on building sites and being laughed at when they ask about getting a mortgage. They are highly unlikely to be the next Luke O'Neill.

I've been hearing nonsense promoting science careers for 25 years, industry is crying out for scientists, there are great and interesting careers etc. A common tactic is to mention NASA or developing cures for cancer. Covid vaccines can now be used in a similar manner, isn't it just AMAZING how science has saved us from this catastrophe. Professors and academics will promote the whole thing seemingly unaware of their survivorship bias.

I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but it often sounds as though vested interests are trying to flood the market with graduates in order to drive down wages. Maybe this is also why we "need more women in STEM".

Environmental science would seem to be another poor choice of career while being portrayed as a good one due to climate change etc. Who is going to make money from actions to mitigate climate change - environmental scientists or engineers, surely the latter.

domrush · 09-03-2021 5:33pm

I know a lot of people who studied biomedical science with excellent jobs in Pharma companies

ancapailldorcha · 09-03-2021 5:55pm

Quite an ill-informed post with no evidence or even specifics to back it up IMO. Doubly so for the usual suppressing wage growth conspiracy.

Science is a great career path with lots of options both inside and outside the lab. In addition, it offers great opportunities internationally with most labs operating in English.

We should absolutely be encouraging more people to choose careers in STEM.

The Mighty Quinn · 09-03-2021 6:02pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

We should absolutely be encouraging more people to choose careers in STEM.

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

timmyntc · 09-03-2021 6:08pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Quite an ill-informed post with no evidence or even specifics to back it up IMO. Doubly so for the usual suppressing wage growth conspiracy.

Science is a great career path with lots of options both inside and outside the lab. In addition, it offers great opportunities internationally with most labs operating in English.

We should absolutely be encouraging more people to choose careers in STEM.

Hardly a conspiracy? Plenty of evidence out there to support the fact that an increase in graduates in any field would suppress wages in said field. Supply and demand.

As for careers in science - it very much depends where you specialise. Immunology would get you a good job even before covid, zoology not so much.
The idea of a degree in science and then going on to work in a lab researching cures to this and that is a naive one though - you'll more than likely end up on an assembly line for pharmaceuticals, or in sales/admin type position for medical devices.

BrianD3 · 09-03-2021 6:13pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Quite an ill-informed post with no evidence or even specifics to back it up IMO. Doubly so for the usual suppressing wage growth conspiracy.

Science is a great career path with lots of options both inside and outside the lab. In addition, it offers great opportunities internationally with most labs operating in English.

We should absolutely be encouraging more people to choose careers in STEM.

Check you own post history in this very forum about not being able to get a job, having to emigrate etc. Maybe you've done better since then and are now suffering from survivorship bias or a bit of Stockholm Syndrome.

I don't regard having to emigrate as a "great opportunity", it's also not something you'll hear the promoters mention.

ancapailldorcha · 09-03-2021 6:27pm

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

I'm not an engineer so I can't comment.

timmyntc wrote: »

Hardly a conspiracy? Plenty of evidence out there to support the fact that an increase in graduates in any field would suppress wages in said field. Supply and demand.

As for careers in science - it very much depends where you specialise. Immunology would get you a good job even before covid, zoology not so much.
The idea of a degree in science and then going on to work in a lab researching cures to this and that is a naive one though - you'll more than likely end up on an assembly line for pharmaceuticals, or in sales/admin type position for medical devices.

Plenty of evidence but you can't be bothered to share any. Right.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Check you own post history in this very forum about not being able to get a job, having to emigrate etc. Maybe you've done better since then and are now suffering from survivorship bias or a bit of Stockholm Syndrome.

I don't regard having to emigrate as a "great opportunity", it's also not something you'll hear the promoters mention.

There are pharma firms and decent research groups in Ireland. Perhaps check first before you drop snide comments. Opportunities increase if you emigrate which is true for many fields.

[Deleted User] · 09-03-2021 6:30pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Doubly so for the usual suppressing wage growth conspiracy.

By and large reducing labour costs is what all businesses want.

ancapailldorcha · 09-03-2021 6:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

By and large reducing labour costs is what all businesses want.

I'll believe it when I see proof and not before.

[Deleted User] · 09-03-2021 6:34pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'll believe it when I see proof and not before.

You want proof of what now? That supply reduces prices? That businesses try to reduce wage costs? I mean how could you have any other opinion?

ancapailldorcha · 09-03-2021 6:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You want proof of what now? That supply reduces prices? That businesses try to reduce wage costs? I mean how could you have any other opinion?

You're moving the goalposts now. I'm going to leave it there.

[Deleted User] · 09-03-2021 11:17pm

BrianD3 wrote: »

Environmental science would seem to be another poor choice of career while being portrayed as a good one due to climate change etc. Who is going to make money from actions to mitigate climate change - environmental scientists or engineers, surely the latter.

I'd say environmental science is due to go from strength to strength over the next 5 years. ESG is becoming huge on corporate agendas, it's not just research jobs that are open to these graduates. Public sector roles, policy, consulting, benchmarking, non-financial reporting, these are just the areas I'd know of off the top of my head but I'm sure there's more than I'd be aware of.

salonfire · 10-03-2021 12:04am

Teens are misled about career choices from an early age. Career Guidance in schools drives home the message to do what you love, by the teachers who themselves are the greatest for bitching and moaning of all professions.

Little consideration is given to salaries again by teachers who give the impression their own salary is terrible when they are actually among the best paid in the country.

Then school leavers are targets with glossy ads for third level colleges - keen to drive up student numbers for their own funding - emphasizing facilities, sports halls, social lives, etc. Important yes, but not when trying to find a good paying job when graduating.

For those careers that are high paying, it is offset by high cost of living in cities. Not many Facebooks in Crossmolina paying 6 figure salaries.

Technology and "learn to code" is a meme at this stage. Why choose a career someone in India will do the same job as you for 10 rupees a day.

STEM is a propaganda campaign by the Government to provide cannon fodder to the multi-nationals to supply a constant stream of low earning graduates who have to share 5 to a house in Dublin. Any muti-national outside of Dublin swiftly reduces the salary on offer accordingly.

MrMusician18 · 10-03-2021 12:42am

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

I live close to a few engineering practices and without fail that's will be lads pottering around the office at 9, 10pm at night. You'll see lights on most weekends too.

A stressful hard life for not particularly stellar pay I believe

mariaalice · 10-03-2021 11:19am

Dont do anything is the message dont do science, don't do engineering or civil engineering, don't do IT, don't do teaching, don't do nursing, don't become a hairstylist, in fact, any career you can think of someone will come on here and say its a terrible career.

Interested Observer · 10-03-2021 11:24am

Could the OP advise us what is a good career choice?

Also, suppressing wages, I just find this argument absolutely bizarre. There are going to be X number of graduates per year regardless coming into the workforce. If people don't study science they are going to study something else. But vested interests have targeted science in particular to drive down wages? What?

I just can't get my head around the OP. It's about half a step removed from education = bad.

onrail · 10-03-2021 11:33am

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

+1 for the Civil Eng industry. Dreadful pay and conditions. Not as familiar with Science, but a few friends of mine wouldn't recommend it either.

Whatever clown(s) started banging the 'STEM' drum all those years ago should be held to account. Useful if you use your skills to aim towards IT or Finance/Accountancy, but there are easier routes to take than a Science/Engineering degree.

mariaalice · 10-03-2021 12:18pm

salonfire wrote: »

Teens are misled about career choices from an early age. Career Guidance in schools drives home the message to do what you love, by the teachers who themselves are the greatest for bitching and moaning of all professions.

Little consideration is given to salaries again by teachers who give the impression their own salary is terrible when they are actually among the best paid in the country.

Then school leavers are targets with glossy ads for third level colleges - keen to drive up student numbers for their own funding - emphasizing facilities, sports halls, social lives, etc. Important yes, but not when trying to find a good paying job when graduating.

For those careers that are high paying, it is offset by high cost of living in cities. Not many Facebooks in Crossmolina paying 6 figure salaries.

Technology and "learn to code" is a meme at this stage. Why choose a career someone in India will do the same job as you for 10 rupees a day.

STEM is a propaganda campaign by the Government to provide cannon fodder to the multi-nationals to supply a constant stream of low earning graduates who have to share 5 to a house in Dublin. Any muti-national outside of Dublin swiftly reduces the salary on offer accordingly.

So what career should teens choose or how should they choose?

I have a relative who is a career guidance teacher and the biggest influence on teens are parents and fashion, there are careers that are fashionable for a while it could be architecture or being a vet or biomedical science whatever is fashionable that year.

mariaalice · 10-03-2021 12:20pm

onrail wrote: »

+1 for the Civil Eng industry. Dreadful pay and conditions. Not as familiar with Science, but a few friends of mine wouldn't recommend it either.

Whatever clown(s) started banging the 'STEM' drum all those years ago should be held to account. Useful if you use your skills to aim towards IT or Finance/Accountancy, but there are easier routes to take than a Science/Engineering degree.

I can bet you someone in accountancy or IT will come on and say it's a dreadful career don't do it.

Interested Observer · 10-03-2021 12:48pm

I studied mechanical engineering. I don't regret it for one single second. I don't actually work in the field anymore but that's the great thing about engineering, you can do anything you want with it.

[Deleted User] · 10-03-2021 12:51pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I can bet you someone in accountancy or IT will come on and say it's a dreadful career don't do it.

I would put STEM and IT together. Or make the latter a subset. All jobs are under competitive pressure in terms of wages these days.

OMM 0000 · 10-03-2021 12:54pm

I think science is an excellent degree, but you should do a masters in business or management too.

Make yourself an allrounder to increase your promotion prospects.

onrail · 10-03-2021 12:58pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I can bet you someone in accountancy or IT will come on and say it's a dreadful career don't do it.

Of course you'll have a few in every industry who will complain, it's the frequency and severity of those complaints that you need to take notice of.

I'd be happy to bet that at least 80% of Civil Engineers are dissatisfied with their career choice.

I don't doubt Accountancy has its difficulties - but at least it's well paid.

OMM 0000 · 10-03-2021 1:03pm

onrail wrote: »

I don't doubt Accountancy has its difficulties - but at least it's well paid.

I used to be an accountant. It's very easy as there are rules for everything. Very little creativity or critical thinking required.

Finance on the other hand is difficult and high pressure.

onrail · 10-03-2021 1:08pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I used to be an accountant. It's very easy as there are rules for everything. Very little creativity or critical thinking required.

Easy and well paid... I wouldn't have left if I were you! lol

(Anyway, apologies for derailing a thread of Science complaints with my Engineering complaints)

FHFM50 · 10-03-2021 1:23pm

Accounting/Actuary - Loads of exams
I.T/Engineering/Finance - Huge Stress
Science - Low paid jobs ( unless you do PHD)
Psychologist - Long road to qualify, very competitive
Pharmacy - Mostly locum work, hard to find steady position
Medicine - I mean, its medicine.

Every career has its down sides.

salonfire · 10-03-2021 1:35pm

I would advise anyone not from Dublin or who were certain they'd eventually like to settle away from Dublin with a family to go into the public sector.

Apart from the obvious benefits of the PS, it allows you to settle anywhere in the country on Dublin salaries.

E.g. a nurse spends their 20s in a large Dublin hospital getting good experience, going on the piss regularly, etc, then move to a regional hospital/back home for a slower pace of life when it comes to having a family. Same with teacher, guard, civil service, etc.

Multi-nationals in the country are a dreadful place to be with far lower salaries. Multinationals in Dublin may pay well but some with more pressure, more stress. More pay yes, but still stuck with high cost of living and limited to cities.

The_Captain · 10-03-2021 2:27pm

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

As someone with a science background, I can tell you S is the same.

Lots of temporary contracts, difficult to get a permanent position, and the pay is generally on-par with people who left school at 18 with no third level.

However, it CAN be amazing, but you need to bolster your experience with a management/business qualification and get into the business side of the industry as soon as possible.

Session2019! · 10-03-2021 3:09pm

Have to disagree here, I did microbiology and currently working in biopharma and absolutely love my job, granted I do have 2 MSc degrees since and now focus primarily in the engineering/commissioning side but Have never once worked in a lab, never once been unemployed or have had to worry about temporary contracts. Only a handful of people went straight into phds/Msc with the majority going straight into employment. I had a job within 6 weeks of finishing my last exam.

I did spent some time contracting but that was my own choice. My degree opened the door into the pharmaceutical industry where over the last 8 years I've been lucky enough to work in many different areas/departments, and enjoying a very nice salary and travelling opportunities which many of my college friends are also enjoying.

Jim2007 · 10-03-2021 3:16pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Dont do anything is the message dont do science, don't do engineering or civil engineering, don't do IT, don't do teaching, don't do nursing, don't become a hairstylist, in fact, any career you can think of someone will come on here and say its a terrible career.

Exactly and the worst thing any parent can do is prevent a young person from doing something they are interested in. I've seen far too many 40+ people fed up with their life because they are doing something they have no interest in doing. If you spend 40+ hours a week doing something you are not interested in, it will impact your mental health and your ability to enjoy the rest of the week.

Doing a particular degree does not condem someone to a particular profession for live. Many accountants, solicitors and barristers have science or engineering primary degrees and so on. And in deed now a days it is very unlikely that someone outside of the public service, will work the same job for life in any case.

[Deleted User] · 10-03-2021 4:40pm

true-or-false wrote: »

I'd say environmental science is due to go from strength to strength over the next 5 years. ESG is becoming huge on corporate agendas, it's not just research jobs that are open to these graduates. Public sector roles, policy, consulting, benchmarking, non-financial reporting, these are just the areas I'd know of off the top of my head but I'm sure there's more than I'd be aware of.

I got a degree in Environmental science a while back and it didn't work out well for too many of us. :pac: A large proportion of jobs were in planning, EIAs and state organisations. It's probably turned around more now (that was 7 years after the crash though and still hadn't recovered) but because it's fairly multi-disciplinary a lot of people can transition in and out without a nominal ES degree.

Science is a poor career choice - Covid effect on CAO applications

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