Science is a poor career choice - Covid effect on CAO applications

BrianD3 · 09-03-2021 5:31pm #1

There has been a 21% increase in CAO applications for biological science courses and this is being attributed to the Covid pandemic. The likes of Luke O'Neill appearing in the media very regularly will probably be spiking interest.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/covid-effect-spikes-interest-in-some-courses-as-college-demand-surges-40175171.html

If we define science as the fields of chemistry, biology and physics, it is a poor career choice. If someone has one of the more practical degrees aimed at the pharma industry, maybe they'll get a job as a QC analyst in a factory earning less than the admin staff and production operatives.

If they major in any biological science, they're likely to end up not getting a job at all and being forced down the route of a PhD. Once they finish that, they might get a postdoc contract but it will short. Emigration may be necessary for the next contract. Suddenly, they find themselves 40 years old with a very uncertain career, earning less than lads working on building sites and being laughed at when they ask about getting a mortgage. They are highly unlikely to be the next Luke O'Neill.

I've been hearing nonsense promoting science careers for 25 years, industry is crying out for scientists, there are great and interesting careers etc. A common tactic is to mention NASA or developing cures for cancer. Covid vaccines can now be used in a similar manner, isn't it just AMAZING how science has saved us from this catastrophe. Professors and academics will promote the whole thing seemingly unaware of their survivorship bias.

I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but it often sounds as though vested interests are trying to flood the market with graduates in order to drive down wages. Maybe this is also why we "need more women in STEM".

Environmental science would seem to be another poor choice of career while being portrayed as a good one due to climate change etc. Who is going to make money from actions to mitigate climate change - environmental scientists or engineers, surely the latter.

domrush · 09-03-2021 5:33pm

I know a lot of people who studied biomedical science with excellent jobs in Pharma companies

ancapailldorcha · 09-03-2021 5:55pm

Quite an ill-informed post with no evidence or even specifics to back it up IMO. Doubly so for the usual suppressing wage growth conspiracy.

Science is a great career path with lots of options both inside and outside the lab. In addition, it offers great opportunities internationally with most labs operating in English.

We should absolutely be encouraging more people to choose careers in STEM.

The Mighty Quinn · 09-03-2021 6:02pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

We should absolutely be encouraging more people to choose careers in STEM.

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

timmyntc · 09-03-2021 6:08pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Quite an ill-informed post with no evidence or even specifics to back it up IMO. Doubly so for the usual suppressing wage growth conspiracy.

Science is a great career path with lots of options both inside and outside the lab. In addition, it offers great opportunities internationally with most labs operating in English.

We should absolutely be encouraging more people to choose careers in STEM.

Hardly a conspiracy? Plenty of evidence out there to support the fact that an increase in graduates in any field would suppress wages in said field. Supply and demand.

As for careers in science - it very much depends where you specialise. Immunology would get you a good job even before covid, zoology not so much.
The idea of a degree in science and then going on to work in a lab researching cures to this and that is a naive one though - you'll more than likely end up on an assembly line for pharmaceuticals, or in sales/admin type position for medical devices.

BrianD3 · 09-03-2021 6:13pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Quite an ill-informed post with no evidence or even specifics to back it up IMO. Doubly so for the usual suppressing wage growth conspiracy.

Science is a great career path with lots of options both inside and outside the lab. In addition, it offers great opportunities internationally with most labs operating in English.

We should absolutely be encouraging more people to choose careers in STEM.

Check you own post history in this very forum about not being able to get a job, having to emigrate etc. Maybe you've done better since then and are now suffering from survivorship bias or a bit of Stockholm Syndrome.

I don't regard having to emigrate as a "great opportunity", it's also not something you'll hear the promoters mention.

ancapailldorcha · 09-03-2021 6:27pm

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

I'm not an engineer so I can't comment.

timmyntc wrote: »

Hardly a conspiracy? Plenty of evidence out there to support the fact that an increase in graduates in any field would suppress wages in said field. Supply and demand.

As for careers in science - it very much depends where you specialise. Immunology would get you a good job even before covid, zoology not so much.
The idea of a degree in science and then going on to work in a lab researching cures to this and that is a naive one though - you'll more than likely end up on an assembly line for pharmaceuticals, or in sales/admin type position for medical devices.

Plenty of evidence but you can't be bothered to share any. Right.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Check you own post history in this very forum about not being able to get a job, having to emigrate etc. Maybe you've done better since then and are now suffering from survivorship bias or a bit of Stockholm Syndrome.

I don't regard having to emigrate as a "great opportunity", it's also not something you'll hear the promoters mention.

There are pharma firms and decent research groups in Ireland. Perhaps check first before you drop snide comments. Opportunities increase if you emigrate which is true for many fields.

09-03-2021 6:30pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Doubly so for the usual suppressing wage growth conspiracy.

By and large reducing labour costs is what all businesses want.

ancapailldorcha · 09-03-2021 6:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

By and large reducing labour costs is what all businesses want.

I'll believe it when I see proof and not before.

09-03-2021 6:34pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'll believe it when I see proof and not before.

You want proof of what now? That supply reduces prices? That businesses try to reduce wage costs? I mean how could you have any other opinion?

ancapailldorcha · 09-03-2021 6:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You want proof of what now? That supply reduces prices? That businesses try to reduce wage costs? I mean how could you have any other opinion?

You're moving the goalposts now. I'm going to leave it there.

09-03-2021 11:17pm

BrianD3 wrote: »

Environmental science would seem to be another poor choice of career while being portrayed as a good one due to climate change etc. Who is going to make money from actions to mitigate climate change - environmental scientists or engineers, surely the latter.

I'd say environmental science is due to go from strength to strength over the next 5 years. ESG is becoming huge on corporate agendas, it's not just research jobs that are open to these graduates. Public sector roles, policy, consulting, benchmarking, non-financial reporting, these are just the areas I'd know of off the top of my head but I'm sure there's more than I'd be aware of.

10-03-2021 12:04am

Teens are misled about career choices from an early age. Career Guidance in schools drives home the message to do what you love, by the teachers who themselves are the greatest for bitching and moaning of all professions.

Little consideration is given to salaries again by teachers who give the impression their own salary is terrible when they are actually among the best paid in the country.

Then school leavers are targets with glossy ads for third level colleges - keen to drive up student numbers for their own funding - emphasizing facilities, sports halls, social lives, etc. Important yes, but not when trying to find a good paying job when graduating.

For those careers that are high paying, it is offset by high cost of living in cities. Not many Facebooks in Crossmolina paying 6 figure salaries.

Technology and "learn to code" is a meme at this stage. Why choose a career someone in India will do the same job as you for 10 rupees a day.

STEM is a propaganda campaign by the Government to provide cannon fodder to the multi-nationals to supply a constant stream of low earning graduates who have to share 5 to a house in Dublin. Any muti-national outside of Dublin swiftly reduces the salary on offer accordingly.

MrMusician18 · 10-03-2021 12:42am

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

I live close to a few engineering practices and without fail that's will be lads pottering around the office at 9, 10pm at night. You'll see lights on most weekends too.

A stressful hard life for not particularly stellar pay I believe

mariaalice · 10-03-2021 11:19am

Dont do anything is the message dont do science, don't do engineering or civil engineering, don't do IT, don't do teaching, don't do nursing, don't become a hairstylist, in fact, any career you can think of someone will come on here and say its a terrible career.

10-03-2021 11:24am

Could the OP advise us what is a good career choice?

Also, suppressing wages, I just find this argument absolutely bizarre. There are going to be X number of graduates per year regardless coming into the workforce. If people don't study science they are going to study something else. But vested interests have targeted science in particular to drive down wages? What?

I just can't get my head around the OP. It's about half a step removed from education = bad.

onrail · 10-03-2021 11:33am

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

+1 for the Civil Eng industry. Dreadful pay and conditions. Not as familiar with Science, but a few friends of mine wouldn't recommend it either.

Whatever clown(s) started banging the 'STEM' drum all those years ago should be held to account. Useful if you use your skills to aim towards IT or Finance/Accountancy, but there are easier routes to take than a Science/Engineering degree.

mariaalice · 10-03-2021 12:18pm

salonfire wrote: »

Teens are misled about career choices from an early age. Career Guidance in schools drives home the message to do what you love, by the teachers who themselves are the greatest for bitching and moaning of all professions.

Little consideration is given to salaries again by teachers who give the impression their own salary is terrible when they are actually among the best paid in the country.

Then school leavers are targets with glossy ads for third level colleges - keen to drive up student numbers for their own funding - emphasizing facilities, sports halls, social lives, etc. Important yes, but not when trying to find a good paying job when graduating.

For those careers that are high paying, it is offset by high cost of living in cities. Not many Facebooks in Crossmolina paying 6 figure salaries.

Technology and "learn to code" is a meme at this stage. Why choose a career someone in India will do the same job as you for 10 rupees a day.

STEM is a propaganda campaign by the Government to provide cannon fodder to the multi-nationals to supply a constant stream of low earning graduates who have to share 5 to a house in Dublin. Any muti-national outside of Dublin swiftly reduces the salary on offer accordingly.

So what career should teens choose or how should they choose?

I have a relative who is a career guidance teacher and the biggest influence on teens are parents and fashion, there are careers that are fashionable for a while it could be architecture or being a vet or biomedical science whatever is fashionable that year.

mariaalice · 10-03-2021 12:20pm

onrail wrote: »

+1 for the Civil Eng industry. Dreadful pay and conditions. Not as familiar with Science, but a few friends of mine wouldn't recommend it either.

Whatever clown(s) started banging the 'STEM' drum all those years ago should be held to account. Useful if you use your skills to aim towards IT or Finance/Accountancy, but there are easier routes to take than a Science/Engineering degree.

I can bet you someone in accountancy or IT will come on and say it's a dreadful career don't do it.

10-03-2021 12:48pm

I studied mechanical engineering. I don't regret it for one single second. I don't actually work in the field anymore but that's the great thing about engineering, you can do anything you want with it.

10-03-2021 12:51pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I can bet you someone in accountancy or IT will come on and say it's a dreadful career don't do it.

I would put STEM and IT together. Or make the latter a subset. All jobs are under competitive pressure in terms of wages these days.

OMM 0000 · 10-03-2021 12:54pm

I think science is an excellent degree, but you should do a masters in business or management too.

Make yourself an allrounder to increase your promotion prospects.

onrail · 10-03-2021 12:58pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I can bet you someone in accountancy or IT will come on and say it's a dreadful career don't do it.

Of course you'll have a few in every industry who will complain, it's the frequency and severity of those complaints that you need to take notice of.

I'd be happy to bet that at least 80% of Civil Engineers are dissatisfied with their career choice.

I don't doubt Accountancy has its difficulties - but at least it's well paid.

OMM 0000 · 10-03-2021 1:03pm

onrail wrote: »

I don't doubt Accountancy has its difficulties - but at least it's well paid.

I used to be an accountant. It's very easy as there are rules for everything. Very little creativity or critical thinking required.

Finance on the other hand is difficult and high pressure.

onrail · 10-03-2021 1:08pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I used to be an accountant. It's very easy as there are rules for everything. Very little creativity or critical thinking required.

Easy and well paid... I wouldn't have left if I were you! lol

(Anyway, apologies for derailing a thread of Science complaints with my Engineering complaints)

FHFM50 · 10-03-2021 1:23pm

Accounting/Actuary - Loads of exams
I.T/Engineering/Finance - Huge Stress
Science - Low paid jobs ( unless you do PHD)
Psychologist - Long road to qualify, very competitive
Pharmacy - Mostly locum work, hard to find steady position
Medicine - I mean, its medicine.

Every career has its down sides.

10-03-2021 1:35pm

I would advise anyone not from Dublin or who were certain they'd eventually like to settle away from Dublin with a family to go into the public sector.

Apart from the obvious benefits of the PS, it allows you to settle anywhere in the country on Dublin salaries.

E.g. a nurse spends their 20s in a large Dublin hospital getting good experience, going on the piss regularly, etc, then move to a regional hospital/back home for a slower pace of life when it comes to having a family. Same with teacher, guard, civil service, etc.

Multi-nationals in the country are a dreadful place to be with far lower salaries. Multinationals in Dublin may pay well but some with more pressure, more stress. More pay yes, but still stuck with high cost of living and limited to cities.

The_Captain · 10-03-2021 2:27pm

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

As someone with a science background, I can tell you S is the same.

Lots of temporary contracts, difficult to get a permanent position, and the pay is generally on-par with people who left school at 18 with no third level.

However, it CAN be amazing, but you need to bolster your experience with a management/business qualification and get into the business side of the industry as soon as possible.

Session2019! · 10-03-2021 3:09pm

Have to disagree here, I did microbiology and currently working in biopharma and absolutely love my job, granted I do have 2 MSc degrees since and now focus primarily in the engineering/commissioning side but Have never once worked in a lab, never once been unemployed or have had to worry about temporary contracts. Only a handful of people went straight into phds/Msc with the majority going straight into employment. I had a job within 6 weeks of finishing my last exam.

I did spent some time contracting but that was my own choice. My degree opened the door into the pharmaceutical industry where over the last 8 years I've been lucky enough to work in many different areas/departments, and enjoying a very nice salary and travelling opportunities which many of my college friends are also enjoying.

Jim2007 · 10-03-2021 3:16pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Dont do anything is the message dont do science, don't do engineering or civil engineering, don't do IT, don't do teaching, don't do nursing, don't become a hairstylist, in fact, any career you can think of someone will come on here and say its a terrible career.

Exactly and the worst thing any parent can do is prevent a young person from doing something they are interested in. I've seen far too many 40+ people fed up with their life because they are doing something they have no interest in doing. If you spend 40+ hours a week doing something you are not interested in, it will impact your mental health and your ability to enjoy the rest of the week.

Doing a particular degree does not condem someone to a particular profession for live. Many accountants, solicitors and barristers have science or engineering primary degrees and so on. And in deed now a days it is very unlikely that someone outside of the public service, will work the same job for life in any case.

10-03-2021 4:40pm

true-or-false wrote: »

I'd say environmental science is due to go from strength to strength over the next 5 years. ESG is becoming huge on corporate agendas, it's not just research jobs that are open to these graduates. Public sector roles, policy, consulting, benchmarking, non-financial reporting, these are just the areas I'd know of off the top of my head but I'm sure there's more than I'd be aware of.

I got a degree in Environmental science a while back and it didn't work out well for too many of us. :pac: A large proportion of jobs were in planning, EIAs and state organisations. It's probably turned around more now (that was 7 years after the crash though and still hadn't recovered) but because it's fairly multi-disciplinary a lot of people can transition in and out without a nominal ES degree.

floorpie · 10-03-2021 5:10pm

I agree with OP. If you love STEM, do the degree for your own personal interest. But the paths to employment in these fields (perhaps except engineering) are not straight forward unless you're an excellent graduate, and 90% of graduates are not excellent. School leavers should be made aware of this, rather than being told that there's massive demand for grads, which there is not. In the US at least, in the 2010s, 45% of science grads work in anything science related (incl. teaching), only 20% of agri/food science grads work in that field, versus 65% for computer science and maths:

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/us-workforce/2013/html/SES2013_DST_03_2.html
https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/us-workforce/

Anecdotally I know very few who did science and are now working in anything even vaguely science-related and I suspect it's the same for everybody in this thread. Several posters say that you can instead take an alternative route into your role, e.g. do a science degree then become a solicitor, or get several masters degrees before finally landing that coveted 30k a year science role. This might be how things "worked out" for some people but it isn't how it should work. The 2-5 years that people now waste doing useless masters degrees, working random roles, searching for jobs, represent earnings you may never make up in your life.

If I could go back in time I'd pick any field that has a direct link between the training you receive, and your eventual on-the-job tasks, e.g. accountancy, medicine, nursing, teaching, or even a trade.

Jim2007 wrote: »

Exactly and the worst thing any parent can do is prevent a young person from doing something they are interested in.

That's the point. These young people likely wont get do what they're interested in once they complete their degree. Look at the poster above you: "I did microbiology ... granted I do have 2 MSc degrees ... but Have never once worked in a lab". That's great for this poster because he loves his job, but that's a nightmare if you did microbiology in order to work in a lab.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Quite an ill-informed post with no evidence or even specifics to back it up IMO. Doubly so for the usual suppressing wage growth conspiracy.

Noah Flabby Instep wrote: »

Also, suppressing wages, I just find this argument absolutely bizarre. There are going to be X number of graduates per year regardless coming into the workforce. If people don't study science they are going to study something else. But vested interests have targeted science in particular to drive down wages? What?

STEM companies have been caught out several times for suppressing wages, so there's no need for posters to be so arrogant about "conspiracy theories". The biggest case being a wage-fixing scheme between Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Pixar, Lucasfilm, Dell, IBM, eBay, Microsoft, and more, wherein they wouldn't poach each other's workers, and agreed not to counteroffer to applicants, i.e. industry-wide wage suppression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation
https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/

Other instances come to mind, such as underpaying women and visa holders: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/22/oracle-lawsuit-discrimination-against-women-minorities

It stands to reason that if the headquarters of companies we're talking about here have at times signed off on illegal measures to suppress wages, they'll also take whatever legal measures they can, including increasing demand for STEM degrees.

dfx- · 10-03-2021 5:28pm

It very much depends on what you want to do. I am much happier in the lab than an office or building site or sales or whatever the OP suggests is a good choice.

You should take the college course in something you are interested in or good at. Having a degree in something you don't want to do but pays well makes no sense, the job will be a chore. One of the worst cases is people doing high points courses just because they can get the points or their parents want it. Awful decision.

Out of the five or six colleagues I graduated with my PhD in Chemistry, one of us is still in academia and several are abroad - teaching, lecturing and Intel comes along every so often and scoops everyone up. You're suggesting emigrating is a bad thing or something to avoid which also makes no sense...

10-03-2021 5:36pm

BrianD3 wrote: »

............ If someone has one of the more practical degrees aimed at the pharma industry, maybe they'll get a job as a QC analyst in a factory earning less than the admin staff and production operatives. ..............

In many places now much of the production operatives are graduates with degrees. They get the foot in the door and a couple of years GMP experience and they go into engineering or something and earn more again.

I'm not sure there's much admin staff in pharma factories........... there are folk whom are desk based but it's not like 40 years ago when the folk at the desks were mainly typists etc

floorpie · 10-03-2021 5:42pm

dfx- wrote: »

Out of the five or six colleagues I graduated with my PhD in Chemistry, one of us is stil in academia and several are abroad - teaching, lecturing and Intel comes along every so often and scoops everyone up. You're suggesting emigrating is a bad thing or something to avoid which also makes no sense...

Being forced to emigrate against your wishes because of a lack of opportunity is of course bad. If you want to emigrate then fine.

So you and 1 other PhD stayed in academia, out of 7 PhDs you know? That's probably a better rate of retention than some fields. But having to spend 10-12 years in higher education doing a degree and masters in science, then a PhD, in order to compete for a 30k postdoc role in a lab, temporary contracts, and slim chance of any professorship really highlights OPs point, sorry (I say that as somebody who's taken this path)

joe40 · 10-03-2021 5:46pm

mariaalice wrote: »

So what career should teens choose or how should they choose?

I have a relative who is a career guidance teacher and the biggest influence on teens are parents and fashion, there are careers that are fashionable for a while it could be architecture or being a vet or biomedical science whatever is fashionable that year.

The problem I think for teens making career choices is the difficulty in finding out what actual jobs entail.
You might have a reasonable idea about what a teacher, nurse, doctor etc does, but how would a teen know what working in finance, or computer software is like.
What is it like to do research in a pharma company? They would have no idea.

I would love some system of truthful career guidance. Warts and all information about different careers.

10-03-2021 5:49pm

dfx- wrote: »

Having a degree in something you don't want to do but pays well makes no sense, the job will be a chore. One of the worst cases is people doing high points courses just because they can get the points or their parents want it. Awful decision.

The whole "do what you love" is very mis-leading and is causing people to choose courses that lead no-where after 4 years.

Young people should be told that very, very few people enjoy their work and could pick 100 other things they'd rather do, but will have to suck up a bit of hard work and effort in order to provide for themselves and future families.

The high earning doctor on his 23th hour of shift doesn't "enjoy" it but has a mindset to knuckle down and get on with it.

Peoples lives are in chaos in Dublin, stuck in a renting cycle on low pay, unable to start families etc. If people want to break that cycle, it should be laid out in stark terms to the 16 year old. Not some fluffy nonsense of follow your heart.

Jim2007 · 10-03-2021 5:53pm

floorpie wrote: »

That's the point. These young people likely wont get do what they're interested in once they complete their degree.

And they'll know if they don't get to take the first step... I know 5 or 6 young people who dropped out or went back a second time, because they did what their parents forced them to do.... tell young people that they can't peruse their dream because it is difficult or they might fail is a dumb idea. They have one life to live and they deserve to at least have a chance to peruse it.

Hercule Poirot · 10-03-2021 5:58pm

I work in a Pharma lab and we have loads of different degree types, not all of them specifically Pharma related (although mine was)

We have Environmental Science degrees, Biology/Biomedical degrees, Physics/Instrumentation degrees - a degree in probably any science discipline will get your foot in the door of a Pharma lab

The degree is more due to GMP requirements and to ensure that you have a bit of kop on

onrail · 10-03-2021 6:00pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

And they'll know if they don't get to take the first step... I know 5 or 6 young people who dropped out or went back a second time, because they did what their parents forced them to do.... tell young people that they can't peruse their dream because it is difficult or they might fail is a dumb idea. They have one life to live and they deserve to at least have a chance to peruse it.

And for every one of those drop outs, I'll happily wager that it's matched by someone following their dream, only to find out their 'dream' wasn't based in reality. A 17 year old knows very little about real life while making their CAO choice.

Ask any Vet up to their hole in ****e at 3am calving a cow thinking they'd spend their career nursing Lassie back to health

floorpie · 10-03-2021 6:05pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

And they'll know if they don't get to take the first step... I know 5 or 6 young people who dropped out or went back a second time, because they did what their parents forced them to do.... tell young people that they can't peruse their dream because it is difficult or they might fail is a dumb idea. They have one life to live and they deserve to at least have a chance to peruse it.

I really do agree with this, but just wish kids were informed of the reality before making their choice. The reality is that many grads from many courses, including science, will out of necessity end up in a generic grad programme in a generic company that they've never heard of before, doing generic office tasks completely unrelated to their degree. It's bad, imo, to make 18 year olds think that there's massive demand for xyz, when in reality they're likely going to end up in whatever companies have the biggest grad programme intake that year, the likes of Paddy Power or Smyths or Accenture if they're lucky.

Nothing wrong with these companies, but for some grads it leads to a sunk-cost situation where they do masters, PhDs, unpaid internships, side projects, emigrate etc, pursuing something that was perhaps unattainable.

A Gender Pay Gap bill was announced today in order to increase pay transparency. It'd be useful if the gov would mandate transparency around grad hiring too so as to inform kids about the topics in this thread.

BrianD3 · 10-03-2021 6:27pm

floorpie wrote: »

Anecdotally I know very few who did science and are now working in anything even vaguely science-related and I suspect it's the same for everybody in this thread. Several posters say that you can instead take an alternative route into your role, e.g. do a science degree then become a solicitor, or get several masters degrees before finally landing that coveted 30k a year science role. This might be how things "worked out" for some people but it isn't how it should work. The 2-5 years that people now waste doing useless masters degrees, working random roles, searching for jobs, represent earnings you may never make up in your life.

I wonder how many solicitors, marketing people, accountants etc. retrain as scientists. This is very rare IME whereas I know of plenty of scientists who went the opposite direction. And this then gets spun as "a science degree is great, look what you can do with it afterwards".

In my undergrad days, I was friendly with a mature student who had left his job as a barber to study science. Swallowed the hype about science, wanted a career change, thought it sounded interesting. It was a struggle for him, lots of repeat exams but stuck with it and got his degree. After graduation, like many of us, he couldn't get a job but unlike most of us, he didn't have youth on his side. Went back to barbering and admitted that the college years were a complete waste of time from a career point of view. He did, at least, get a college experience out of it and said he met some good people. But he could have done that without slogging through hours of labs and lab reports.

Re: the arguments that "people have it hard in every job" - yes they do - but if science was lucrative, adults would be retraining to get into it, not leaving it in droves once they realise they've made a big error. Some never realise their error or try to rationalise it (ah shur I never wanted a good salary enyway)
Some go down the rabbithole of the the PhD/postdoc route, a small number of those get lucky. For others it will be short term contracts, emigration and poor finances.

For some it is worse again - a few years ago I was on interview boards for Jobbridge intern "positions", basically unpaid lab tech positions. There were more applicants than the number of "jobs". Some of the applicants had PhDs and postdoc experience. They interviewed well but others were better. 35 years old, 4 year degree, PhD, postdocs and being rejected for a "job" that pays nothing.

Also I've often browsed linkedin profiles of people I was in college with. With over 20 years having passed since graduation, a good feel can be gotten for how people are doing. When you see mention of PhD then a HDip and then JobBridge, you suspect that things are not good. Good people too, near top of their class with good hons degrees and having completed a PhD before they tried (and clearly failed) to become a secondary school teacher.

onrail · 10-03-2021 6:32pm

BrianD3 wrote: »

I wonder how many solicitors, marketing people, accountants etc. retrain as scientists. This is very rare IME whereas I know of plenty of scientists who went the opposite direction. And this then gets spun as "a science degree is great, look what you can do with it afterwards".

Excellent point. I've yet to hear of any accountant, solicitor or teacher who has retrained as a scientist or engineer.

mariaalice · 10-03-2021 6:43pm

I did know someone who did some sort of science food tech degree and was retraining to be a nurse as she could no get a job after her degree, shd did say I know how to make cheese and beer so maybe it wasn't a complete waste of time.

Calahonda52 · 10-03-2021 7:10pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Dont do anything is the message dont do science, don't do engineering or civil engineering, don't do IT, don't do teaching, don't do nursing, don't become a hairstylist, in fact, any career you can think of someone will come on here and say its a terrible career.

Well said, as are your other contributions here

such an unfettered bias in this thread :eek:
The OP should edit the title to say Work is a poor career choice, just draw the scratch and live in a house where 4 or 5 generations have done the same.

Education is the only route out of poverty and deprivation.

Jim2007 · 10-03-2021 7:19pm

onrail wrote: »

Excellent point. I've yet to hear of any accountant, solicitor or teacher who has retrained as a scientist or engineer.

Well I know a lot of accountants the retrained as Software Engineers....

feckwunker · 10-03-2021 7:20pm

I work in a STEM field in a highly niche, but now very popular, and over-subscribed field (thank you Blue Planet). There is no such thing as job security and you have to slog through years of increasing levels of academic qualifications before you even get a chance to work in this field. The pay is not great, but we were under no illusion that it would be when we all first entered college - our department head stood up in front of us on day one and said "If you want to make money, you're in the wrong field. If you want to get a job in this, you'll have to likely leave the country".

However, while financially it isn't rewarding, it's genuinely quite an interesting job as each day brings new challenges and issues. Some of the research we undertake also yields amazing data which actually affect policy and decision making nationally and even internationally. I could probably easily sell my soul and move into pharma but everyone who I know who works in it, while well off, have very little job satisfaction so I think I'm happy enough with my lot.

amacca · 10-03-2021 7:43pm

floorpie wrote: »

I really do agree with this, but just wish kids were informed of the reality before making their choice. The reality is that many grads from many courses, including science, will out of necessity end up in a generic grad programme in a generic company that they've never heard of before, doing generic office tasks completely unrelated to their degree.

Have you worked with groups of your average 16-18 year olds before?

While they are not homogeneous by any means it's my opinion the majority of them wouldn't truly be able to appreciate what you are saying nowadays.....perhaps they would understand in an academic sense but they wouldn't take it on board and believe it and be able act/make decisions accordingly.... if only to find out they definitely don't.......trying to make the horse wise before the race is a very difficult undertaking......if they don't get to take control and make the decisions at some stage you will be to blame for anything that goes wrong.

What I see a lot of on this thread are adults that have stuck their finger in the fire and being burned (or they believe they have) and they think if that information was conveyed to kids they wouldn't stick their fingers in the fire....not a hope of that imo....theres always a fire and always a steady stream of people that need to get their digits into it and if there wasnt there would be bigger problems.

Not a hope of a guidance counsellor hammering home a life lesson like that to most 16-18 year olds.....they can and probably do give information but something like that only really sinks in through experience. A system cant have everyone making the correct decisions......even if it did then they would quickly become the wrong ones anyway

Besides if they did succeed...it would just drive hordes of students onto another horse which would become oversubscribed. If you want to deliver and have a message like that appreciated then I think a parent acting for the right reasons and a kid that trusts them will be the only scenario where that kind of life experience can sink in and benefit the next generation without making them think there's no point doing anything or pressuring them into doing something they hate which you will be blamed for even though you thought you were acting in their best interests.

10-03-2021 10:41pm

BrianD3 wrote: »

I wonder how many solicitors, marketing people, accountants etc. retrain as scientists. This is very rare IME whereas I know of plenty of scientists who went the opposite direction. And this then gets spun as "a science degree is great, look what you can do with it afterwards".

In my undergrad days, I was friendly with a mature student who had left his job as a barber to study science. Swallowed the hype about science, wanted a career change, thought it sounded interesting. It was a struggle for him, lots of repeat exams but stuck with it and got his degree. After graduation, like many of us, he couldn't get a job but unlike most of us, he didn't have youth on his side. Went back to barbering and admitted that the college years were a complete waste of time from a career point of view. He did, at least, get a college experience out of it and said he met some good people. But he could have done that without slogging through hours of labs and lab reports.

Re: the arguments that "people have it hard in every job" - yes they do - but if science was lucrative, adults would be retraining to get into it, not leaving it in droves once they realise they've made a big error. Some never realise their error or try to rationalise it (ah shur I never wanted a good salary enyway)
Some go down the rabbithole of the the PhD/postdoc route, a small number of those get lucky. For others it will be short term contracts, emigration and poor finances.

For some it is worse again - a few years ago I was on interview boards for Jobbridge intern "positions", basically unpaid lab tech positions. There were more applicants than the number of "jobs". Some of the applicants had PhDs and postdoc experience. They interviewed well but others were better. 35 years old, 4 year degree, PhD, postdocs and being rejected for a "job" that pays nothing.

Also I've often browsed linkedin profiles of people I was in college with. With over 20 years having passed since graduation, a good feel can be gotten for how people are doing. When you see mention of PhD then a HDip and then JobBridge, you suspect that things are not good. Good people too, near top of their class with good hons degrees and having completed a PhD before they tried (and clearly failed) to become a secondary school teacher.

Coming into this thread to offer a solicitor's point of view, the reason solicitor's don't retrain as scientists is because on average, we either aren't bright enough or opted out of science subjects for the leaving cert and see that as a barrier to entry. Plenty of solicitors are bad at fundamental parts of science like maths etc. There's very good money in law if you work in the right areas but those areas come with very, very long hours and usually repetitive work.

Your last paragraph is very interesting but also true for law, imo. The people who do the best aren't necessarily the brightest, they are the ones who can stay working hard when the easier option is to check out and go home, who can grind away on the days they don't fancy working etc. I also know plenty of intelligent people who aren't, for want of a better word, "glic", they lack that extra cuteness you need to advance in your career.

ongarite · 10-03-2021 10:56pm

Interesting discussion.
Plenty of job opportunities at the moment and into future in electronic engineering, particularly semi related.
I'm with big semi inspection company and its hard to get graduates for the roles we have.
With recent US and EU decisions to move production into their regions to protect supply from critical shortages in Taiwan, there is guaranteed work for foreseeable future.

Pay & conditions are good if recent After Hours discussion on pay scales is accurate reflection of wages in Ireland with possibility of relocating to US if that interests people.

11-03-2021 12:00am

ongarite wrote: »

Interesting discussion.
Plenty of job opportunities at the moment and into future in electronic engineering, particularly semi related.
I'm with big semi inspection company and its hard to get graduates for the roles we have.
With recent US and EU decisions to move production into their regions to protect supply from critical shortages in Taiwan, there is guaranteed work for foreseeable future.

Pay & conditions are good if recent After Hours discussion on pay scales is accurate reflection of wages in Ireland with possibility of relocating to US if that interests people.

If it's Intel, maybe the fact there are whole threads discussing the nonsense that workers there put up with might explain why people stay clear.

Science is a poor career choice - Covid effect on CAO applications

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