Science is a poor career choice - Covid effect on CAO applications

AlphabetCards

To parOP: "STEM degrees, particularly chemistry and the likes, are irrelevant, pointless as the jobs that are specific for chemistry degrees don't pay well."

Thargor wrote: »

Ideally Biotechnology or Biochemistry or Biopharma etc but they'll take literally any science degree or even an unrelated degree if you can explain yourself in the interview, you just might have to do a 12 month contract ...

I have Biotech qualifications but work with people in the same role that have sports nutrition or forensics or that kind of random thing where there are very few roles to be had in their chosen area, my team lead was a qualified primary school teacher but she got sick of the crappy money and no permanent roles in that field and fired off a CV.

Production is just the bottom rung in your career anyway. Worst case scenario do a one year Springboard course in Pharmaceutical science or something, they're free if you're unemployed or dirt cheap otherwise.

Im in my thirties with no pHD just 6 years experience in the industry and going for a mortgage on my own, except Ill be paying 50% cash from savings, or I could just buy an apartment now for cash, 25k a year technician roles lol?

Mate, everything you have posted has proven our points. You don't even need a degree in science for the role you are talking about here - that is your own words. In a thread where STEM grads are highlighting that their degrees don't open doors, and that any jobs that require a Chemistry or Science degree don't pay well. Like, how is this point not getting through to posters?

I think there are degrees which are vocational in nature, Medicine, nursing, physio, pharmacy etc which line up a very determined career path.

Not to mention Law. What's the common thread here, why do these types of jobs pay so well? Because the number of grads each year are limited, the professions are protected/regulated/licensed and that hinders supply of labour, thus increasing... demand, keep with me here... which in turn forces employers to pay more to ensure they can get people in the door to do the job. Again, supply and demand, the central tenet of this whole thread which seems to be lost on nearly everyone posting here.

AlphabetCards

onrail wrote: »

Where do I sign up!!?

Dole office, apparently the springboard course will get you in.

But do a science degree, masters and a PhD, because, transferable skills and no-one knows what they want to do when they are 15 anyway and 'I have always been seen as a high performer because of my extensively broad background' and other pointless **** people have posted in this thread.

Thargor

AlphabetCards wrote: »

To parOP: "STEM degrees, particularly chemistry and the likes, are irrelevant, pointless as the jobs that are specific for chemistry degrees don't pay well."





Mate, everything you have posted has proven our points. You don't even need a degree in science for the role you are talking about here - that is your own words. In a thread where STEM grads are highlighting that their degrees don't open doors, and that any jobs that require a Chemistry or Science degree don't pay well. Like, how is this point not getting through to posters?



Not to mention Law. What's the common thread here, why do these types of jobs pay so well? Because the number of grads each year are limited, the professions are protected/regulated/licensed and that hinders supply of labour, thus increasing... demand, keep with me here... which in turn forces employers to pay more to ensure they can get people in the door to do the job. Again, supply and demand, the central tenet of this whole thread which seems to be lost on nearly everyone posting here.

Well Im sure you know more than me about it but the reason my company takes any science degree anyway is because they're so desperate for graduates they cant get the numbers. Hiring increased through the pandemic contrary to pretty much every other industry, we all got raises and covid payments to keep us at our posts anyway.

And yes a Springboard course will get you in on the bottom rung, so what? Isnt that still a STEM degree? If you have the work ethic they're looking for you can double or treble your pay in a few years. Then you specialise into whatever senior roles take your interest. If you dont change roles/network and upskill you'll stay on low pay forever but who does that these days? I think this post sums some people in this thread up pretty well:

mariaalice wrote: »

Dont do anything is the message dont do science, don't do engineering or civil engineering, don't do IT, don't do teaching, don't do nursing, don't become a hairstylist, in fact, any career you can think of someone will come on here and say its a terrible career.

Timistry

Totally agree with the above regarding operators in Pharma, serious money to be made. Most are earning much more the chemists and engineers who design and run the processes (with masters or doctorates).

Also, fitters who went straight from schools and did an apprenticeship in Pharma plants in the 80s/90s. Would be on 100K+ now. I know someone in their late 20s who works as a fitter and he is on 70K.

Ash.J.Williams

Timistry wrote: »

Totally agree with the above regarding operators in Pharma, serious money to be made. Most are earning much more the chemists and engineers who design and run the processes (with masters or doctorates).

Also, fitters who went straight from schools and did an apprenticeship in Pharma plants in the 80s/90s. Would be on 100K+ now. I know someone in their late 20s who works as a fitter and he is on 70K.

The trades all seem to end up studying and becoming engineers too , Pharma IT pays more than the science jobs , but then again stay in a place 2 years in a science role and you’ll be management

Thargor

Thargor wrote: »

Well Im sure you know more than me about it but the reason my company takes any science degree anyway is because they're so desperate for graduates they cant get the numbers. Hiring increased through the pandemic contrary to pretty much every other industry, we all got raises and covid payments to keep us at our posts anyway.

I believe you are discussing a large multi-national in the Midwest beginning with R? I would advise any science graduate I know to apply there, great jobs and great benefits from what I've heard of people working there.

Turtwig

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I believe you are discussing a large multi-national in the Midwest beginning with R? I would advise any science graduate I know to apply there, great jobs and great benefits from what I've heard of people working there.

Second this. The job seeker would be mad to not at least explore the option.

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

Second this. The job seeker would be mad to not at least explore the option.

Absolutely. I understand some graduates are reluctant to move to the midwest due to Limerick's rep but it's a great place to live, ime. If you are a bit older and have kids there's plenty of nice places to live in a short commute from Raheen too, Ennis, Nenagh etc are both only about a 30 minute drive, if city living isn't your thing.

ancapailldorcha

Turtwig wrote: »

Second this. The job seeker would be mad to not at least explore the option.

Do you work there as well? Limerick seems to have a lot more going for it than a northerner like myself would have thought.

Christy42

Retraining is pretty quick these days outside of specialised fields. If the worst is that you enjoyed 3/4 years of your life and learned about some things that interested you then it isn't so bad as a worst case. We have more science graduates than science jobs at the moment but that isn't so bad from my point of view. They will still mesh in well with business or other areas and their degree may give them an advantage, i.e. admin at a pharma firm able to better understand what is going on with the chemists.

Then from a society point of view we could do with more training in science given its relevance to modern life (5g, vaccines etc.). A degree doesn't just have to help your career, it can help your understanding of the world you are in as well.

Someone mentioned other degrees in their job. Obviously there is more than 1 path to the end result, there nearly always is. Why not take the path that interests you the most to get there? You don't need a law degree to be a lawyer either.

I can't speak for specific jobs within STE but maths still has a lot of options in industry though the OP seems more focused on Chemistry/Biology. No degree or trade is an automatic right to a high salary anymore. You still have to work at it and be good at it. A bad plumber won't be doing well either but there is plenty of money to be made if that is your thing.

divillybit

I did an environmental science degree... I stuck with it at the time when I should have dropped out as I was more interested in engineering than science but the social life was good so I stuck with it. I do recall one lecturer saying we would be highly skilled and sought after graduates and thinking to myself he's really packing us with lies... Ive been working in industry now for 10 years now, in the environmental engineering sector and I'm nearly finished a postgraduate diploma, while working full time and it's tough going, and I've not really learned much relevant stuff from it so I regret doing it and I certainly won't be pursuing a masters.. I think science degrees are worthwhile, but avoid very broad based courses, and focus more on a core discipline like chemistry or physics. In the broader science courses there is alot of overlap between courses in the first few years. I think doing a masters straight after a degree is a mistake for graduates. I nearly made that mistake and luckily I got working as the masters I was looking at would have been very specialised. Graduates are best to go work in industry for at least 3 years before considering a masters as I think practical experience is worth gaining at the start of your career

Squeeonline

I started my undergrad in 2007 and was frequently told about how 4th years were being headhunted by Pfizer and co before they even graduated.

Obviously in 2011 when I finish, the economy is in a totally different place and still not recovered enough from 2009. Was unable to find a position in industry for a year and it was quite disheartening. It felt like I was mis-sold on the value of my specialist science degree. After a year I enrolled in a masters course, then eventually a PhD in a different country.

I feel like I could probably have had more success in the job hunt after the masters, but that's from a position of privilege. The masters wasn't cheap and my parents had to support me financially for yet another year.

ValuableResist

To be fair, most people I know who did environmental science didn't really realise that they need development and building to be happening or they won't have a job. I did geology and we all have jobs that the environmental scientists thought they would be qualified for, but actually there is a preference for the geo grads. Like there were people who were anti-development, mining, windfarms, but they need companies to want those things to have a job...

Outkast_IRE

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

Work on the consulting side myself. My own opinion would be similar to yours. I work in a large international consultancy who claim to be all about wellbeing etc. but they dont do a tap to help the lads stressed out of their heads with the pressure who just quit with no other job lined up.



I will never be encouraging any of my kids into it thats for sure.

ancapailldorcha

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Work on the consulting side myself. My own opinion would be similar to yours. I work in a large international consultancy who claim to be all about wellbeing etc. but they dont do a tap to help the lads stressed out of their heads with the pressure who just quit with no other job lined up.



I will never be encouraging any of my kids into it thats for sure.

You work in consulting? I'm considering it as a possible option but I assume that you're one of the lads you allude to. I take it you wouldn't recommend the path?

dowhatyoulove

Did a science degree and then later a masters. Wish quite frankly I had have had better career counseling as it was a costly mistake as it was the middle of the recession and didn’t manage to get any work.

10 years later they are just very expensive wall hangings and I wish I had of persuaded a degree in Pharmacy as I’m now a technician and the wages have quite a low ceiling

Outkast_IRE

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You work in consulting? I'm considering it as a possible option but I assume that you're one of the lads you allude to. I take it you wouldn't recommend the path?

It's probably less stressful in some ways than the site based roles but sitting in the office or at home all day has serious downsides at times.

If you haven't tried it before try and get in with one of the biggest crowds or else a smaller crowd that someone can vouch for. Like everything else in construction margins are tight in consulting and it's very competitive.

Stand your ground with regards to taking on workload and be realistic in how long things take.

If you haven't worked in that area yourself it might be worth a shot but generally the site based roles pay more.

ancapailldorcha

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

It's probably less stressful in some ways than the site based roles but sitting in the office or at home all day has serious downsides at times.

If you haven't tried it before try and get in with one of the biggest crowds or else a smaller crowd that someone can vouch for. Like everything else in construction margins are tight in consulting and it's very competitive.

Stand your ground with regards to taking on workload and be realistic in how long things take.

If you haven't worked in that area yourself it might be worth a shot but generally the site based roles pay more.

I was looking at a large firm. A woman who left work suggested it to me. I like problem solving and dealing with technical stuff but, truth be told I don't know a great deal about it. Especially not the work-life balance aspect of it.

I'm lab based. Don't know if that makes much difference.

BrianD3

CAO points for 2021 out, has there been any increase (over and above general points inflation) for science, in particular biological science courses this year. I compared points for some financial and biological science courses for this year and for 2019. It doesn't look like the points difference has changed much which would suggest that there hasn't been an increase in popularity of science courses. Although there could have been a change on the supply side i.e. more places for some courses and not for others?

floorpie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862592#Comment_117862592

I wonder if capacity has increased in courses, due to blended learning. I know in my uni we were pushing physical capacity each year, and online learning during lockdowns relieved things somewhat (albeit this isn't ideal)

BrianD3

It's that time of year again - Science Week. Lots of talks and events all around the country which seem to be aimed mostly at children and teenagers. As in previous years, no doubt there will be events about interesting and "trendy" topics from dinosaurs to forensics to superhero exoskeletons. With some kids inspired to pursue careers based on this influence. More potential cannon fodder for industry and students/postdocs for the universities?

It seems to be county councils who are organising the Science Week events on behalf of Science Foundation Ireland. The same county councils for whom environmental protection is within their remit - yet they have always been very reluctant to employ NFQ level 8+ qualified environmental science graduates as...scientists...with similar status to engineers. Instead, most are employed as badly paid technicians, positions for which a NFQ level 6 is required. Even so, demand has historically been high for these jobs which is telling and says something about the state of the jobs market for environmental science grads.

BrianD3

I thought of this thread again when i saw the below article on public jobs. If I was a 17/18 year old doing the LC and putting down courses on the CAO form, I'd probably be influenced by this and the comment where she would "strongly encourage a career in science".

Is this person's career history reflective of career prospects for many who study Geology?

I don't like the way these things are spun. She worked in London and Boston (in other words, she emigrated but this word isn't used) Then, after many years she returned to Ireland and secured her senior position in the civil service. I'd like to hear from those who haven't secured the position of Head of Geoscience in the civil service (there is only one such position) or aren't some "bigshot" working in oil exploration.

What happened to the rest of the people she went to college with. When I read articles like this my first thought is - survivor bias. Add to that the stuff about women in STEM. Maybe geology is actually a fair choice for a woman if she's going to benefit from pro female recruitment policies which skew the jobs market?

https://publicjobs.ie/en/information-hub/latest-news-and-events/709-meet-clare-head-of-geoscience-regulation-office-department-of-environment-climate-and-communications

vriesmays

Science is also psychology, sociology, home economics and geography.

BrianD3

It's coming up to that time of year again - Science Foundation Ireland's annual Science Week where kids and teenagers are shown how "cool" science is. No doubt everything from dinosaurs to climate change to diversity in STEM will be covered again this year. But will there be anything about poor pay and opportunities for science grads? Unlikely

I see that Philip "Snake Oil" Nolan aka Philip "The Modelling" Nolan is now Director General of SFI. I doubt that he and other senior people are too concerned about struggling postdocs in academia or graduates being employed as technicians on not much above minimum wage - if they can get a job.

Universities, Local Government and other public bodies are heavily involved in Science Week with various festivals happening around the country. Re: local government, this sector has always been very reluctant to employ science graduates as scientists (with pay/T&Cs equivalent to those of engineers, town planners, architects etc.) for scientific work. Instead most are employed as technicians. The work they do is not valued and not understood and many LAs do not even have a lab. Yet, here's some promotional material from twitter with the obligatory diversity. One good thing about this is at least they don't try to promote the work using CSI type "coolness".

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671987#Comment_118671987

I know someone who did geology. Work options were mostly insurance, risk assessment, oil companies, working in third world countries doing something.

They didn't stay in the field got a job in totally different area.

Flinty997

Most people I know in Pharma are pretty decently paid. No idea about the general conditions in the industry. Did contract IT work in a Pharma once seemed decent place to work. Though a bit souless if I'm honest.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814566#Comment_119814566

So it did not work out for you. Get over it, move on and stop rehashing it every few months with this thread.

Flinty997

I think third level are guilty are selling courses that put bums on seats to pay the their bills rather than train people for specific careers.

If you want know what the good jobs are look at salary guides from places like cpl. Look at the salary range top to bottom. Then look how People you know and how they are doing.

The other factor is personality. Some people will drive themselves to the top in a difficult area. But not everyone is like that. So you need to look at low end of salaries too.

When I switched careers (I was in creative area) I switched to one (IT) where the salary scale was much higher. For the most part that worked out.

There's obviously downsides to picking a career based on income rather than doing something you like doing. Life is not a job at the end of the day.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814616#Comment_119814616

Is that a mod instruction?

Or a flippant comment from someone who works in a different field in a different country who is close to retirement and now effectively telling me to shut up? If this thread irritates you, I suggest you don't read it.

Also, you're wrong about it not working out "for me". I've done better than most of my peers but better doesn't mean good. If I can counterbalance some of the hype that we're going to see during Science Week, I will.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814666#Comment_119814666

I'm not a mod of this forum. It just that you keep playing the same old fiddle over and over to the point of obsession.

maxitwist

Great post. Science is a terrible choice, they produce so many graduates that its imposible to find a job if you accidentily pick the wrong degree variant.
The right variant is biomedical science, the places are extremely limited, and all medical labs in ireland have to hire grads from those courses, so the wages are extremely good and the job is guaranteed.

If you picked a general science degree? Too bad, even though you know how to do everything medical scientists or pharma scientists do, you wont get a job. Just straight up theres so much supply of grads here the industries have no need to look beyond their specific niche degree at all.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958142#Comment_121958142

Completely untrue, they're is a desperation for candidates in the sector that I haven't seen since I graduated nearly 15 years ago especially outside Dublin. People with the likes of a sports or nutrition degree or even a non-STEM qualification can walk into well paying operator jobs and then the sky is the limit depending on how far they want to go. Science degrees are probably the easiest way to get to 80-100k a year in this country at the minute.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958176#Comment_121958176

This was already acknowledged in my OP where I said that QC analysts earn less than production operatives. Also title of the thread is "Science is a poor career choice" not "Production Operator in the pharma industry is a poor career choice".

When vested interests (universities, SFI etc.) market science as a great career choice, I don't recall them using production operators as examples. Do you consider production operators to be scientists? If a person can get an operator job with any degree, then that in no way refutes the point that science is a poor career choice, if anything it supports it.

if you want to get a job in the pharma industry, what would be a better path to do down.

Chemistry degree

Chemistry degree + chemistry PhD

Mechanical engineering degree

Mechanical engineering cert

Electrician, Fitter etc.

I have been at talks about STEM careers during Science Week and was often struck by how they seemed to be struggling to get scientists to talk positively about their career. It was mostly engineers and IT people giving presentations. Maybe Science Week should be renamed Engineering Week and STEM shortened to TE.

The other poster is also correct about medical scientists. I'm old enough to remember when they were called med lab technicians and the course was a level 7 in DIT - but it has always been a better choice for getting a job, even if not a particularly well paid one, than a general science level 8 or higher qualification.

Medical scientists have several things going for them. Most jobs are public sector (=union representation, paid overtime) there is the vital CORU registration and protection of the title and there are hospitals all around the country. As I think I already stated in this thread, I've encountered scientists with B.Sc. and M.Sc. who have gone back to college to study medical science (i.e. a second degree) and now work in hospital labs as career prospects were so poor with the general science, chemistry. biology etc. qualifications that they spent 4-6 years getting.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958142#Comment_121958142

Any idiot with a science degree is guaranteed to walk into a job now with great career prospects. Many companies are looking at overseas candidates now as there are not enough in Ireland. As others have said any science degree at all will do to get a job in any science related company.

One contributing factor to this is the vast numbers of young people working in well paid science jobs with great career prospects quitting and emigrating. They are doing this as they see no future in Ireland. Only the very wealthy single person can afford a house, working a 9 to 5 job would not be enough. The quality of life in Ireland is crashing. Someone with a great career cannot even get a doctor now unless they it is an extreme emergency.

Flinty997

3rd level job is to get people into college because that how they make money and survive. You'll find most degrees are over subscribed as a result.

People also change their mind, and fall into other jobs. The idea that you train for one job and do that your entire life is obsolete.

Just because you are successful in college doesn't always follow that you'll be successful in getting jobs, and promoting yourself to get good jobs in an industry.

Also Ireland is a tiny country. It makes sense there are more opportunities globally than just in Ireland.

What you really need is some labour market stats showing how many work in their degree area but not done by third level who have skin in the game.

maninasia

Science degrees are a great base for jobs in scientific industries , in many places you won't get a look in without one. I know many people who very successfully transitioned into IT and Pharma from natural science and engineering degrees too..for those who don't want to stay in the life science field directly.

Easy enough to round it off with further education or a business masters. There is pressure to go to PhD level but if you do get the PhD it'll stand to you for the rest of your career.

In the place I currently work you simply wouldn't get hired without a science/technical degree in the mix somewhere, that goes from top to bottom in the organisation.

Starting off is always hard, it can be a slog, but once you get a few years experience in the business side there really are plenty of jobs and it's quite rewarding working in areas such as human health..it sure beats selling burgers. Yes you will find more opps overseas that is just the case when you come from a small country.

Flinty997

Most people don't have one degree these days. Lifelong learning means people often gain multiple degrees in their lifetime.

That said people can have very successful careers without any degree..

maxitwist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958176#Comment_121958176

A product builder job? Thats not a science job? You dont need any degree to get that, thats regular factory work, and will pay 14-16e an hour.
And after a couple of years in that you could maybe be promoted to quality depending on the company it might just be a dead end.
I had a short stint in a pharma factory working as that, i went to the lab one day and they wouldnt consider anyone without a specific chemistry degree for their lab. I had already done most of what they were doing in college but since mine is a biology degree, no chance.

And they had 0 problem getting new people in that met their criteria. Hired like 10 people in the space of 6 weeks, when the total lab size is 40.

maxitwist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958362#Comment_121958362

completely wrong. Look at linkedin, any entry level science job recieves 100s of applicants. Theres no shortage of workers here. If companies are looking abroad, its because they want workers with more experience rather than hire grads with no experience/without the specific degree they want.

https://www.finfacts-blog.com/2018/09/shortage-of-stem-graduates-myth-in.html
"The Department says there are many more workers with a STEM degree (11.9m) than there are workers in STEM occupations. About two-thirds of the workers with a STEM undergraduate degree work in a non-STEM job while life and physical science majors are the STEM degree holders most likely to work in non-STEM jobs; 83% of these graduates are employed outside of STEM fields."

The vast majority of people with science degrees never find work in science fields and have to look elsewhere.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960742#Comment_121960742

Lol no, not a product builder in a factory. A pharmaceutical operator, a biotechnology production specialist, a process biochemist and the dozens of other similar job titles that companies all over Ireland are desperate to fill with STEM-qualified candidates paying 80-100k after a couple of years. Go do that while you wait for your dream job curing cancer, this thread is ridiculous.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960763#Comment_121960763

I know plenty of companies looking for STEM workers, lots of them. Anyone not getting a job is not trying or totally incompetent in interviews.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958142#Comment_121958142

A degree is not vocational training, it's an education and it is up to you what you do with it. All your degree does is demonstrate your ability to master a body on knowledge and get you an entry to the world of work, beyond that you career progression depends on the face you see in the mirror every morning. And there are plenty of opportunities all across the EEA right not for graduates to enter the workforce and do very well in their careers. But these days it requires a lot more than a degree to do well, in particular it requires soft skills and unfortunately some people attracted to the sciences are not well equipped to deal with that. And those who don't recognise that and put a lot of effort into learning those skills don't do very well in their career.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960763#Comment_121960763

I know from direct (pharma) experience that most jobs that go up on LinkedIn attract a large number of unrealistic applicants, mainly from people outside the EU who need a visa sponsor. The number you see on the public website is meaningless. When you whittle it down to realistic candidates, the pool becomes a lot smaller and I’ve struggled to fill jobs with 80-100k salaries.

“Science” is a very, very broad term and if you expand it into STEM then that’s a whole multiverse of courses and career options. You will always have people who pick the wrong degree and end up doing something completely different at the end of it. That’s the same for ALL career paths.

But with tech, pharma and medical devices being huge employers here, I think saying there are no jobs in science is a bit mental.

I don’t know why this thread got resurrected but the thrust of the OP seems to be that if you’re not making huge money on day 1 out of college, you’ve wasted your time, which tbh is a reflection on the OP more than anything. It reminds me of that “quiet quitting” shyte from a couple of years ago, that some people couldn’t see the value in working hard and actually trying, but at the same time wondering why their career wasn’t taking off.

BrianD3

Here's what a couple of UK 3rd level institutions have to say about career prospects for their biological science graduates

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/lifesci/study/ug/careers/

"A Life Sciences degree from the University of Warwick is an excellent qualification for securing your future career in a diverse range of industries and employment sectors"

https://le.ac.uk/biological-sciences/study/undergraduate/careers

"Our degrees prepare you for a wide range of career opportunities. Many of our graduates follow further training for research or teaching careers in biology, often through our MSc or PhD programmes at Leicester. Others gain positions in medical or pharmaceutical laboratories, in environmental management, in agriculture or in the food industry"

Why did I pick out Universities of Warwick and Leicester?

Here's why.

https://mei.org.uk/app/uploads/2021/08/The-employment-trajectories-of-STEM-graduates-FINAL-REPORT-20180801.pdf

The authors of the research work for those institutions and note the logos in the report.

A lot to get through in that but in summary, biological science appears to be a poor choice of degree and physical science a mediocre choice. Overall, employment for STEM graduates is comparable to that for non-STEM graduates but there is wide variation between STEM fields with the relatively good ones (Engineering) skewing the average for STEM.

Report also refutes the decades long narrative of "shortages" of STEM grads.

Now it could be the case that in 2024, for once, there may be shortages in Ireland but as we keep hearing about labour shortages in many areas, this isn't specific to science. If there is a general shortage of workers in the economy, does this make science a good career choice?

I notice from indeed.ie that badly paid science technician jobs are just as badly paid as they were a few years ago but in some cases now there is no mention of needing a science qualification. Looks like it's a race to the bottom with employers reacting to apparent labour shortages by choosing to employ less qualified people rather than paying more for qualified people.

And this is why Medical Scientists with their CORU registration and protected title have a major trump card over other scientists

Anyway, I've been hearing about shortages and employers "crying out" for general science graduates since the 1990s when it was utter, utter bullsh*t. it was bullsh*t in the 90s, bullsh*t in the 00s, bullsh*t in the 10s and I'm extremely skeptical that "this time it's different" in the 20s.

As a final word, some of the very people saying how great science is on this thread should probably look back on their own posts on boards.ie with numerous mentions of dole, stuck in a rut, emigration, Jobbridge, no advancement etc. Short memories it seems.

Former Former Former

ok there’s a back story here, I think it’s safe to say

Waaay back in 1978 I started a science degree, said to be most prodigious general science degree of its time, involving maths, physics, chemistry and biology. Long story short, I was restless, wanted to start earning steady money and got a job in the public service.

Back then science degrees, especially, tended to be more general, you didn’t specialise until you did a Masters or PhD. Since that specialist primary degrees emerged, like forensic science, biomedical etc. If you emerge with a very specialist degree you might find the career path is more narrow from the outset and it turns out not to be the ideal one for you. Whereas if you do a very good basic degree you have time to think about various specialisations and you can get working basically somewhere in the field whilst studying for your specialisation.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961864#Comment_121961864

LOL at the misrepresentation.

a) point out where I said in the OP or elsewhere that there are "no jobs in science"

b) point out in the OP or elsewhere where I expected science grads to earn "huge" money on day 1 out of college and if they didn't, their degree was a waste of time.

Also, you do realise that regardless of how many pharma or med devices companies there are in Ireland, if supply of graduates significantly exceeds demand, graduates are going to struggle to get jobs.

Also, re: your little snipe about quiet quitting and people not wanting to work hard you have NO IDEA how hard I or other people work.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962075#Comment_121962075

Go on?

maninasia

Yes it's absolutely ridiculous, there are tonnes of jobs where a science degree will really stand to you pharma industry being a very obvious one.

You don't just walk into the best jobs it takes a few years to build up experience. And yeah upskill with masters etc.

Vast majority of my friends are very successful career wise, yes many didn't work directly in science it's true but that science degree stood them very well indeed as a base degree and would be much more useful than a general business degree.

Iscreamkone

Those with a STEM qualification look to be stronger candidates than Arts or Business graduates. Even for business hires like trainee accountants.

Arts degrees have been dumbed down so much these days that they are just above useless. Employers know this.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962127#Comment_121962127

Go on?

You seem to be very angry about a pretty mundane topic, and that anger is going on three years now. I just wonder is there something behind that.

Also, you do realise that regardless of how many pharma or med devices companies there are in Ireland, if supply of graduates significantly exceeds demand, graduates are going to struggle to get jobs

Yes, but that is true of any career path, it is not specific to science or tech.