Science is a poor career choice - Covid effect on CAO applications

maxitwist

Great post. Science is a terrible choice, they produce so many graduates that its imposible to find a job if you accidentily pick the wrong degree variant.
The right variant is biomedical science, the places are extremely limited, and all medical labs in ireland have to hire grads from those courses, so the wages are extremely good and the job is guaranteed.

If you picked a general science degree? Too bad, even though you know how to do everything medical scientists or pharma scientists do, you wont get a job. Just straight up theres so much supply of grads here the industries have no need to look beyond their specific niche degree at all.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958142#Comment_121958142

Completely untrue, they're is a desperation for candidates in the sector that I haven't seen since I graduated nearly 15 years ago especially outside Dublin. People with the likes of a sports or nutrition degree or even a non-STEM qualification can walk into well paying operator jobs and then the sky is the limit depending on how far they want to go. Science degrees are probably the easiest way to get to 80-100k a year in this country at the minute.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958176#Comment_121958176

This was already acknowledged in my OP where I said that QC analysts earn less than production operatives. Also title of the thread is "Science is a poor career choice" not "Production Operator in the pharma industry is a poor career choice".

When vested interests (universities, SFI etc.) market science as a great career choice, I don't recall them using production operators as examples. Do you consider production operators to be scientists? If a person can get an operator job with any degree, then that in no way refutes the point that science is a poor career choice, if anything it supports it.

if you want to get a job in the pharma industry, what would be a better path to do down.

Chemistry degree

Chemistry degree + chemistry PhD

Mechanical engineering degree

Mechanical engineering cert

Electrician, Fitter etc.

I have been at talks about STEM careers during Science Week and was often struck by how they seemed to be struggling to get scientists to talk positively about their career. It was mostly engineers and IT people giving presentations. Maybe Science Week should be renamed Engineering Week and STEM shortened to TE.

The other poster is also correct about medical scientists. I'm old enough to remember when they were called med lab technicians and the course was a level 7 in DIT - but it has always been a better choice for getting a job, even if not a particularly well paid one, than a general science level 8 or higher qualification.

Medical scientists have several things going for them. Most jobs are public sector (=union representation, paid overtime) there is the vital CORU registration and protection of the title and there are hospitals all around the country. As I think I already stated in this thread, I've encountered scientists with B.Sc. and M.Sc. who have gone back to college to study medical science (i.e. a second degree) and now work in hospital labs as career prospects were so poor with the general science, chemistry. biology etc. qualifications that they spent 4-6 years getting.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958142#Comment_121958142

Any idiot with a science degree is guaranteed to walk into a job now with great career prospects. Many companies are looking at overseas candidates now as there are not enough in Ireland. As others have said any science degree at all will do to get a job in any science related company.

One contributing factor to this is the vast numbers of young people working in well paid science jobs with great career prospects quitting and emigrating. They are doing this as they see no future in Ireland. Only the very wealthy single person can afford a house, working a 9 to 5 job would not be enough. The quality of life in Ireland is crashing. Someone with a great career cannot even get a doctor now unless they it is an extreme emergency.

Flinty997

3rd level job is to get people into college because that how they make money and survive. You'll find most degrees are over subscribed as a result.

People also change their mind, and fall into other jobs. The idea that you train for one job and do that your entire life is obsolete.

Just because you are successful in college doesn't always follow that you'll be successful in getting jobs, and promoting yourself to get good jobs in an industry.

Also Ireland is a tiny country. It makes sense there are more opportunities globally than just in Ireland.

What you really need is some labour market stats showing how many work in their degree area but not done by third level who have skin in the game.

maninasia

Science degrees are a great base for jobs in scientific industries , in many places you won't get a look in without one. I know many people who very successfully transitioned into IT and Pharma from natural science and engineering degrees too..for those who don't want to stay in the life science field directly.

Easy enough to round it off with further education or a business masters. There is pressure to go to PhD level but if you do get the PhD it'll stand to you for the rest of your career.

In the place I currently work you simply wouldn't get hired without a science/technical degree in the mix somewhere, that goes from top to bottom in the organisation.

Starting off is always hard, it can be a slog, but once you get a few years experience in the business side there really are plenty of jobs and it's quite rewarding working in areas such as human health..it sure beats selling burgers. Yes you will find more opps overseas that is just the case when you come from a small country.

Flinty997

Most people don't have one degree these days. Lifelong learning means people often gain multiple degrees in their lifetime.

That said people can have very successful careers without any degree..

maxitwist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958176#Comment_121958176

A product builder job? Thats not a science job? You dont need any degree to get that, thats regular factory work, and will pay 14-16e an hour.
And after a couple of years in that you could maybe be promoted to quality depending on the company it might just be a dead end.
I had a short stint in a pharma factory working as that, i went to the lab one day and they wouldnt consider anyone without a specific chemistry degree for their lab. I had already done most of what they were doing in college but since mine is a biology degree, no chance.

And they had 0 problem getting new people in that met their criteria. Hired like 10 people in the space of 6 weeks, when the total lab size is 40.

maxitwist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958362#Comment_121958362

completely wrong. Look at linkedin, any entry level science job recieves 100s of applicants. Theres no shortage of workers here. If companies are looking abroad, its because they want workers with more experience rather than hire grads with no experience/without the specific degree they want.

https://www.finfacts-blog.com/2018/09/shortage-of-stem-graduates-myth-in.html
"The Department says there are many more workers with a STEM degree (11.9m) than there are workers in STEM occupations. About two-thirds of the workers with a STEM undergraduate degree work in a non-STEM job while life and physical science majors are the STEM degree holders most likely to work in non-STEM jobs; 83% of these graduates are employed outside of STEM fields."

The vast majority of people with science degrees never find work in science fields and have to look elsewhere.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960742#Comment_121960742

Lol no, not a product builder in a factory. A pharmaceutical operator, a biotechnology production specialist, a process biochemist and the dozens of other similar job titles that companies all over Ireland are desperate to fill with STEM-qualified candidates paying 80-100k after a couple of years. Go do that while you wait for your dream job curing cancer, this thread is ridiculous.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960763#Comment_121960763

I know plenty of companies looking for STEM workers, lots of them. Anyone not getting a job is not trying or totally incompetent in interviews.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958142#Comment_121958142

A degree is not vocational training, it's an education and it is up to you what you do with it. All your degree does is demonstrate your ability to master a body on knowledge and get you an entry to the world of work, beyond that you career progression depends on the face you see in the mirror every morning. And there are plenty of opportunities all across the EEA right not for graduates to enter the workforce and do very well in their careers. But these days it requires a lot more than a degree to do well, in particular it requires soft skills and unfortunately some people attracted to the sciences are not well equipped to deal with that. And those who don't recognise that and put a lot of effort into learning those skills don't do very well in their career.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960763#Comment_121960763

I know from direct (pharma) experience that most jobs that go up on LinkedIn attract a large number of unrealistic applicants, mainly from people outside the EU who need a visa sponsor. The number you see on the public website is meaningless. When you whittle it down to realistic candidates, the pool becomes a lot smaller and I’ve struggled to fill jobs with 80-100k salaries.

“Science” is a very, very broad term and if you expand it into STEM then that’s a whole multiverse of courses and career options. You will always have people who pick the wrong degree and end up doing something completely different at the end of it. That’s the same for ALL career paths.

But with tech, pharma and medical devices being huge employers here, I think saying there are no jobs in science is a bit mental.

I don’t know why this thread got resurrected but the thrust of the OP seems to be that if you’re not making huge money on day 1 out of college, you’ve wasted your time, which tbh is a reflection on the OP more than anything. It reminds me of that “quiet quitting” shyte from a couple of years ago, that some people couldn’t see the value in working hard and actually trying, but at the same time wondering why their career wasn’t taking off.

BrianD3

Here's what a couple of UK 3rd level institutions have to say about career prospects for their biological science graduates

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/lifesci/study/ug/careers/

"A Life Sciences degree from the University of Warwick is an excellent qualification for securing your future career in a diverse range of industries and employment sectors"

https://le.ac.uk/biological-sciences/study/undergraduate/careers

"Our degrees prepare you for a wide range of career opportunities. Many of our graduates follow further training for research or teaching careers in biology, often through our MSc or PhD programmes at Leicester. Others gain positions in medical or pharmaceutical laboratories, in environmental management, in agriculture or in the food industry"

Why did I pick out Universities of Warwick and Leicester?

Here's why.

https://mei.org.uk/app/uploads/2021/08/The-employment-trajectories-of-STEM-graduates-FINAL-REPORT-20180801.pdf

The authors of the research work for those institutions and note the logos in the report.

A lot to get through in that but in summary, biological science appears to be a poor choice of degree and physical science a mediocre choice. Overall, employment for STEM graduates is comparable to that for non-STEM graduates but there is wide variation between STEM fields with the relatively good ones (Engineering) skewing the average for STEM.

Report also refutes the decades long narrative of "shortages" of STEM grads.

Now it could be the case that in 2024, for once, there may be shortages in Ireland but as we keep hearing about labour shortages in many areas, this isn't specific to science. If there is a general shortage of workers in the economy, does this make science a good career choice?

I notice from indeed.ie that badly paid science technician jobs are just as badly paid as they were a few years ago but in some cases now there is no mention of needing a science qualification. Looks like it's a race to the bottom with employers reacting to apparent labour shortages by choosing to employ less qualified people rather than paying more for qualified people.

And this is why Medical Scientists with their CORU registration and protected title have a major trump card over other scientists

Anyway, I've been hearing about shortages and employers "crying out" for general science graduates since the 1990s when it was utter, utter bullsh*t. it was bullsh*t in the 90s, bullsh*t in the 00s, bullsh*t in the 10s and I'm extremely skeptical that "this time it's different" in the 20s.

As a final word, some of the very people saying how great science is on this thread should probably look back on their own posts on boards.ie with numerous mentions of dole, stuck in a rut, emigration, Jobbridge, no advancement etc. Short memories it seems.

Former Former Former

ok there’s a back story here, I think it’s safe to say

Waaay back in 1978 I started a science degree, said to be most prodigious general science degree of its time, involving maths, physics, chemistry and biology. Long story short, I was restless, wanted to start earning steady money and got a job in the public service.

Back then science degrees, especially, tended to be more general, you didn’t specialise until you did a Masters or PhD. Since that specialist primary degrees emerged, like forensic science, biomedical etc. If you emerge with a very specialist degree you might find the career path is more narrow from the outset and it turns out not to be the ideal one for you. Whereas if you do a very good basic degree you have time to think about various specialisations and you can get working basically somewhere in the field whilst studying for your specialisation.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961864#Comment_121961864

LOL at the misrepresentation.

a) point out where I said in the OP or elsewhere that there are "no jobs in science"

b) point out in the OP or elsewhere where I expected science grads to earn "huge" money on day 1 out of college and if they didn't, their degree was a waste of time.

Also, you do realise that regardless of how many pharma or med devices companies there are in Ireland, if supply of graduates significantly exceeds demand, graduates are going to struggle to get jobs.

Also, re: your little snipe about quiet quitting and people not wanting to work hard you have NO IDEA how hard I or other people work.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962075#Comment_121962075

Go on?

maninasia

Yes it's absolutely ridiculous, there are tonnes of jobs where a science degree will really stand to you pharma industry being a very obvious one.

You don't just walk into the best jobs it takes a few years to build up experience. And yeah upskill with masters etc.

Vast majority of my friends are very successful career wise, yes many didn't work directly in science it's true but that science degree stood them very well indeed as a base degree and would be much more useful than a general business degree.

Iscreamkone

Those with a STEM qualification look to be stronger candidates than Arts or Business graduates. Even for business hires like trainee accountants.

Arts degrees have been dumbed down so much these days that they are just above useless. Employers know this.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962127#Comment_121962127

Go on?

You seem to be very angry about a pretty mundane topic, and that anger is going on three years now. I just wonder is there something behind that.

Also, you do realise that regardless of how many pharma or med devices companies there are in Ireland, if supply of graduates significantly exceeds demand, graduates are going to struggle to get jobs

Yes, but that is true of any career path, it is not specific to science or tech.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962419#Comment_121962419

100% agree, I did a good, well regarded STEM degree in a good university and all my classmates have very good, if not excellent jobs. Most owning houses in a nice suburbs. The varience in the standard of degrees and, as the poster above pointed out, your work ethic will generally dictate the outcome in the long run.

University degrees are also for the general betterment of the person and of society as a whole. A good degree should make you a better critical thinker, teach you to work in teams, force you to expand your skillset and train your mind to think logically. These are just generally useful for life.

And I know several people who work in cancer research, it's not quite the white unicorn the OP are making it out to be.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961996#Comment_121961996

You are talking about a third country who has voted to make itself poorer. The economy is completely different, the business circumstances are different, the investment opportunities are non existent and labour rights are very restricted. The only thing you have in common with the UK is a language and some documents that fit your views.

If you want to make that argument, the support it from the actual labour market you are in the EEA.

mariaalice

Sure if it doesn't work out become a science teacher you will always have a job even better if you can teach physics and a bit of maths.