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Who Watches the Watchmen (Our Chit Chat Thread)

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,074 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Where are you getting that from? Seems slightly odd I would have both an issued watch and pocket watch chronograph for navigation, issued to a fighter pilot. Perhaps the Royal Navy were more generous or because of the over water thing.
    The RN tended to be. :D Over water could certainly be a factor alright C.

    Watches and timekeepers were naturally very important tools in prosecuting modern mechanised war, but fighter pilots would have been low enough on the list of military personnel requiring them. One big reason was range. At the start of the war fighters were single engined one man craft of very limited range tasked in interceptor roles where they were usually vectored onto targets by the ground, or in defence of their own airfields, or used in the escort role for bombers(here again range was their weakness). Yes there were two engined two man fighters with greater ranges, but it was quickly discovered they themselves needed fighter escorts or they were cut to pieces by the single engined craft.

    So if we take say the Battle of Britain, a Hurricane pilot would have taken off and bunched up with his mates and would be vectored onto target by the ground. His counterpart in his ME109 would have been flying bomber escort, the navigators on the bombers needing timepieces to set their course which they followed. The Germans did favour watches, particularly privately or unit bought chronographs and have said it was to time the very limited fuel they had left over England. Not much more than ten minutes on some runs.

    Secondly and unlike nigh on every other personnel fighter pilots already had a timepiece as part of their equipment sitting right there in front of them on the dashboard. It's always good to have a backup of course, but again more important in bombers, transports and reconnaissance aircraft. The latter two usually operated on their own as well.

    Then we have the high workload involved flying those aircraft. On the fly navigation was largely rudimentary. You're not going to be pulling out charts in a Spitfire too often. When you read accounts of fighter pilots back then navigation was mostly about where the lines are and hoping you're on the right side of them and recognising landmarks that get you back to base. On bombers and the like you had a navigator and usually a navigator's position where they could concentrate on setting the right course and instructing the pilot. The reconnaissance guys had about the hardest job as far as flying and navigation went. Having an accurate fit for purpose watch as a backup for their cockpit clock was a requirement alright.

    In the days before GPS and radio beacons(that advanced rapidly during WW2) and before the war accurate wristwatches were a given for pilots of all types for navigation and fuel timing purposes so most pilots would have one as par for the course. Even so fighter pilots of that era would actually require them least. I remember a similar conversation on another forum and one poster noted that in a lot of photos of WW2 fighter pilots they weren't wearing any watches and where they were and the watch was clear to see, it was just as likely to be a civilian watch.

    Here's a pic of a German pilot, note the Tank style on his wrist.
    erich-hartmann-the-greatest-fighter-pilot-in-history-and-the-battle-for-the-skies-over-the-soviet-union-1941-45.jpg
    Boorish unrepentant nazi prick, but the the most decorated pilot of any side in the war.

    Pic of two Spitfire guys.
    spitfire-pilots-ww2-RAF-air-force-939773.jpg
    No watches at all.

    Five Allied pilots
    RAF_pilots_with_Beaufighter_and_Spitfire_at_Malta_1943.jpg?fit=771%2C800&ssl=1
    Only two are wearing watches.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Only two are wearing watches.

    I make it at least three. The guy on the right is a possible fourth.

    Edit: Isn't that a Beaufighter behind the Spitfire? Looks like it might be Malta, most are wearing float vests.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Wibbs wrote: »
    T...Not much more than ten minutes on some runs....

    I'd say if you had a hurricane or spitfire on your tail 10 minutes can seem like an eternity...

    Thank goodness for all the years of relative peace we've had since then - we don't know how good we have it nowadays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 606 ✭✭✭fulladapipes


    I make it at least three. The guy on the right is a possible fourth.

    Edit: Isn't that a Beaufighter behind the Spitfire? Looks like it might be Malta, most are wearing float vests.

    I suspect they are all a lot younger than they look as well. The average age of a RAF pilot in 1939/40 was about 20.

    Just looked it up - and average age killed in Battle of Britain was 22, and life expectancy during it was four weeks.

    Jay.Pers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,733 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Thanks, for that. Somewhere I think I have some navigation exercise charts of my fathers, which I suspect involved RNAS Eglinton in NI as his memoir mentions being there for a time. He flew several versions of Spitfires and Hurricanes but mostly Grumman Martlets out of airfields in north Africa, Libya I believe. They lived in tents.

    As many flights were over the Med for convoy escort and because of what I would presume would be a lack of landmarks from development, perhaps navigation was of greater import than the scramble tallyho Battle of Britain stuff which is all you hear about.

    Looking through the photo album, I can't spot a watch on anyone.

    WW2-1.jpgWW2-3.jpg

    WW2-4.jpgWW2-7.jpg
    WW2-9.jpg
    The photo above was taken at Tobruk
    WW2-8.jpg
    WW2-6.jpg
    WW2-5.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 606 ✭✭✭fulladapipes


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Thanks, for that. Somewhere I think I have some navigation exercise charts of my fathers, which I suspect involved RNAS Eglinton in NI as his memoir mentions being there for a time. He flew several versions of Spitfires and Hurricanes but mostly Grumman Martlets out of airfields in north Africa, Libya I believe. They lived in tents.

    As many flights were over the Med for convoy escort and because of what I would presume would be a lack of landmarks from development, perhaps navigation was of greater import than the scramble tallyho Battle of Britain stuff which is all you hear about.

    Looking through the photo album, I can't spot a watch on anyone.

    Those photos are brilliant. Roald Dahl, of all people, has has excellent book on his time as fighter pilot in Greece and North Africa. He was so tall that he had to squash himself into the planes. Definitely worth getting your hands on if you like that sort of thing. (Excuse the filthy cable and shelf.)

    JGXKnr9.jpg


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,074 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Fantastic photos C. "How David lost his teeth". :eek: :) I'd say constipation wasn't much of an issue either for David after a while that. The conversation with his dentist might have been interesting. Eating too many sweets eh David? Nope, pranged a Tiger Moth in Libya funny enough.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,074 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    cnocbui wrote: »
    As many flights were over the Med for convoy escort and because of what I would presume would be a lack of landmarks from development, perhaps navigation was of greater import than the scramble tallyho Battle of Britain stuff which is all you hear about.
    Very much so. Very different and at times more terrifying flying. Flying a single engined fighter over miles and miles of featureless water with little or no chance of rescue if you ditched, if you survived the ditching, took serious guts. Before the Battle of Britain the Germans actually forbade their single engined planes from flying more than 10kms over open water. It was considered too risky. When that battle kicked off there was a scramble to find life jackets and the like for the crews.
    Looking through the photo album, I can't spot a watch on anyone.
    That's what that thread on another forum noted too. Few enough watches to be seen on anyone and vanishingly few pictures anywhere of specifically "pilots watches". IIRC there was one Czech Longines and a handful of 30's "Luftwaffe pattern" watches.
    image-asset.jpeg

    c7a3545b131b3c8797effc9d92ceadcd.jpg

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,733 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Those photos are brilliant. Roald Dahl, of all people, has has excellent book on his time as fighter pilot in Greece and North Africa. He was so tall that he had to squash himself into the planes. Definitely worth getting your hands on if you like that sort of thing. (Excuse the filthy cable and shelf.)

    Thanks. Speaking of Greece and the extinguishing of promising youth in war. My great uncle? - not too sure about geneology terms - Grandmothers brother anyway, who was anglo Irish, was also a RN pilot and died in a training accident on Lemnos in WW1.

    Also, the father of my second cousin (I think) who is a fairly famous singer, also was a pilot who died in a training accident in WW2. That is some weird s***, right there.

    And this is what a father, mother and sister are left with:

    Roll-of-Honour-spine.jpgRoll-of-Honour-frontice.jpg
    Conrad-roll-honor.jpg
    udhzBU08_o.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 606 ✭✭✭fulladapipes


    Conrad-roll-honor.jpg

    Ir's all fascinating. Coincidentally, my old flat mate from Manchester's dad was a principal in Sherborne School.

    When I lived in Belgium, I toured nearly every War Graves Commission graveyard in search of family members who died in both wars. There was only one - I've an unusual surname so was easy enough - and he was in one of the few graveyards I didn't get to in northern France. He died a few days before the end of the war in August 1918.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Somewhere I've photos taken by one of my relatives / descendants while fighting on the Russian Front - to me, they're fascinating to look at. Must take a closer look for any watches on display...


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,227 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    If you haven't listened, Dan Carlin has some amazing WW1 and WW2 podcasts.

    Blueprint for Armegeddon. It's about 5 or 6 podcasts covering all of WW1

    ghosts of the ostfront, covers the eastern front of WW2

    Supernova in the east covers Japanese and American involvement in the pacific.

    The beauty of these podcasts is that he reads a lot of autobiographies from people involved, from front line soldiers to generals, so he'll always throw in personal stories so you get a feel for what it was like.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058163548&page=5

    I've just realized that Wibbs might be younger than I am:(

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,529 ✭✭✭Fitz II


    blue5000 wrote: »
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058163548&page=5

    I've just realized that Wibbs might be younger than I am:(

    The old man schtick is just part of the aura


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭893bet


    I suspect he posts from his MacBook in Starbucks most days. 22 max.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,074 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    :D Haven't been 22 since 1990. :eek: So old enough, but I was a teen in the 80's, they were my teenage years.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,529 ✭✭✭Fitz II


    Wibbs wrote: »
    :D Haven't been 22 since 1990. :eek: So old enough, but I was a teen in the 80's, they were my teenage years.

    Dont worry Wibbs you post like a very passable octogenarian, no need to be embarassed. I was a teen in the 80's too.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,074 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    04-17o-tirade.gif?w=525

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    I was in my thirties in the 80s. I must be the oldest here, everyone address me as Sir, henceforth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,733 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Damn, I'm feeling old. :(


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Wibbs wrote: »
    :D Haven't been 22 since 1990. :eek: So old enough, but I was a teen in the 80's, they were my teenage years.
    cnocbui wrote: »
    Damn, I'm feeling old. :(

    Me too, not much in it though.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭hitemfrank


    I was 4 when the 80's ended. You guys are old :p


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,074 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    fellow-kids.jpg

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,733 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Speaking of Casio fakes, does anyone know if there is any substance to the following claim concerning fakes?

    In the 70's I heard it claimed that there were fake high end watches being sold in Thailand that had mechanisms made from bamboo, which would fail shortly after the tourist who bought them had returned home.

    I fell for it at the time but have since come to think it was complete nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    I'd imagine it was complete nonsense - in fact being able to build a wristwatch movement from bamboo would take quite some skill. I remember we had one person on this watch forum who used to build wooden clocks - that was pretty cool.

    You can make quite a few cool things from bamboo however - ranging from underwear to colanders:
    https://interestingengineering.com/15-amazing-things-you-can-do-with-bamboo

    The most bamboo you'd get in a watch nowadays would be a bamboo case probably.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Lorddrakul


    Bit of frustration at Irish postal service.

    Ordered stuff from AliExpress, just a €30 stainless watch bracelet, on 18/02. Dispatched on the 19. Arrived in Ireland on 1/03/2021.
    Still no indication of it being processed, Irish side.

    A whole 7 days it's been here now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,227 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    Lorddrakul wrote: »
    Bit of frustration at Irish postal service.

    Ordered stuff from AliExpress, just a €30 stainless watch bracelet, on 18/02. Dispatched on the 19. Arrived in Ireland on 1/03/2021.
    Still no indication of it being processed, Irish side.

    A whole 7 days it's been here now.

    Same here, ordered a watch on 24th feb, it arrived in ireland 2nd march and it's still there. The watch cost under €4.39, so customs shouldn't even effect it.

    I've a clasp in the same boat, in ireland since 2nd march, but no move since.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,733 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Lorddrakul wrote: »
    Bit of frustration at Irish postal service.

    Ordered stuff from AliExpress, just a €30 stainless watch bracelet, on 18/02. Dispatched on the 19. Arrived in Ireland on 1/03/2021.
    Still no indication of it being processed, Irish side.

    A whole 7 days it's been here now.


    Australia let's you buy up to about AU$1 K without import duty, so none of this nonsense. Also gives retailers an incentive not to gouge. But we have that Revenue mob running the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    cnocbui wrote: »
    Australia let's you buy up to about AU$1 K without import duty, so none of this nonsense. Also gives retailers an incentive not to gouge. But we have that Revnue mob running the country.

    Good to know someone is.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    US allows for $850 without fees.

    But equally I think if we look at the local business situation local brick and mortar places need to add on VAT on their sales. So if people are buying from the US and elsewhere and not paying sales tax and don't pay VAT on import then it's going to be pretty hard for the local places to compete on price.

    Works out great for an Irish business to export to the US or Australia - but not every Irish shop is geared for that.


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