Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings

Russman · 06-03-2021 11:12PM

Ok, I know it’s Saturday night and all, and there’s been the same back and forth on this for months now. Some people agree with the govt, some people don’t, that’s fair enough. But leaving all the one upmanship aside for a moment, does anyone really, hand on heart, think the govt or NPHET “want” any of this to go on for second longer than it needs to ? And if you do think that, then why would they want this ? I mean seriously, it doesn’t make any sense.
Agree with restrictions, don’t agree with restrictions, that’s all fairly natural, but imho the very idea that any of this is anyone’s ideal or desired scenario is for the birds.

FintanMcluskey · 06-03-2021 11:23PM

Russman wrote: »

Ok, I know it’s Saturday night and all, and there’s been the same back and forth on this for months now. Some people agree with the govt, some people don’t, that’s fair enough. But leaving all the one upmanship aside for a moment, does anyone really, hand on heart, think the govt or NPHET “want” any of this to go on for second longer than it needs to ? And if you do think that, then why would they want this ? I mean seriously, it doesn’t make any sense.
Agree with restrictions, don’t agree with restrictions, that’s all fairly natural, but imho the very idea that any of this is anyone’s ideal or desired scenario is for the birds.

It’s been stated many times that the issue is a lack of leadership & also that none of those making the decisions to extend restrictions will be affected by them personally.

Will any NPHET members or government TD’s loose their homes or pensions due to restrictions?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buzz.ie/amp/news/tds-set-for-another-pay-rise-to-push-wages-over-e100000-418993

TDs are set to receive a pay rise in the coming months that will push their wages to more than €100,000 a year.

There is no conspiracy, it’s not that they want it, it’s just it won’t affect them, and the lack of leadership means the risk averse policy is the most favourable for those in charge

The greatest lie I’ve seen is that we are all in this together, and it’s not difficult to refute arguments that imply posters in this thread are flat earth tin foil hat wearing conspiracy nut jobs

Natterjack from Kerry · 06-03-2021 11:29PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It’s been stated many times that the issue is a lack of leadership & also that none of those making the decisions to extend restrictions will be affected by them personally.

Will any NPHET members or government TD’s loose their homes or pensions due to restrictions?

How is that relevant to the quality of the scientific advice and decisions being taken ?

What are you suggesting - that if the NPHET propose a month lockdown, and the government implements it, NPHET members and TD should be laid off for the month on PUP ?

LuckyLloyd · 06-03-2021 11:30PM

Russman wrote: »

Ok, I know it’s Saturday night and all, and there’s been the same back and forth on this for months now. Some people agree with the govt, some people don’t, that’s fair enough. But leaving all the one upmanship aside for a moment, does anyone really, hand on heart, think the govt or NPHET “want” any of this to go on for second longer than it needs to ? And if you do think that, then why would they want this ? I mean seriously, it doesn’t make any sense.
Agree with restrictions, don’t agree with restrictions, that’s all fairly natural, but imho the very idea that any of this is anyone’s ideal or desired scenario is for the birds.

The whining over civil liberties and "blood running cold at people complying" is merely the latest madness in this thread. The idea that governments will retain these restrictions beyond their public health necessity is complete delusion.

Such nonsense perpetuates inspite of direct examples in the likes of New Zealand and Australia where harsh lockdown has been completely relaxed once the related objectives have been achieved. Even in Wuhan, people are back moving around and living their lives in the same way they were before the collective war against the virus was kicked into gear in January 2020.

Our government has zero political motivation to keep any public health measures in place a day longer than is necessary. They also have every motivation to make this the last run of restrictions and avoid a rerun of January, hence their caution around communications and declared milestones.

The end in this is fairly obvious to me already, and it's pretty funny. The vaccination programmes around the west gather pace and transmission and severe illness starts to collapse allowing governments to remove public health restrictions. And the anti - lockdown merchants declare "victory" and claim that it was pressure from the public that "forced" the hands of policy makers. Thankfully we'll all be celebrating at that point so it will only be a mild amusement, but still.

FintanMcluskey · 06-03-2021 11:30PM

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

How is that relevant to the quality of the scientific advice and decisions being taken ?

What are you suggesting - that if the NPHET propose a month lockdown, and the government implements it, NPHET members and TD should be laid off for the month on PUP ?

Yep

Bit cynical · 06-03-2021 11:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

But what if we never get all of them back?

I think it will be a long time before we get all of them back. Some of the restrictions may be repurposed after Covid-19 is no longer a threat.

FintanMcluskey · 06-03-2021 11:33PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

I think it will be a long time before we get all of them back. Some of the restrictions may be repurposed after Covid-19 is no longer a threat.

If social distancing and mask wearing is credited with 0 flu deaths reported this year, who will decide to remove those at a cost of many lives and overwhelmed health services?

Who decides who dies?

Natterjack from Kerry · 06-03-2021 11:34PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Yep

This is why we need, and fortunately have, high quality people making the decisions. Protecting people from themselves is a thankless job, but someone has to step up and do it. NPHET is doing that for you.

FintanMcluskey · 06-03-2021 11:37PM

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

This is why we need, and fortunately have, high quality people making the decisions. Protecting people from themselves is a thankless job, but someone has to step up and do it. NPHET is doing that for you.

That’s grim reading

Please protect me from myself Tony

RGS · 06-03-2021 11:39PM

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

How is that relevant to the quality of the scientific advice and decisions being taken ?

What are you suggesting - that if the NPHET propose a month lockdown, and the government implements it, NPHET members and TD should be laid off for the month on PUP ?

I'm sure there are some who would argue that they should be on the PUP payment to properly understand the effect of their decisions,I don't agree.

However the decisions they make have no actual effect on them. They get to go to the office every day and the caninet can travel anywhere as they are essential workers. MM travelled to galway last
night to visit a vaccine centre.
Was there really a need for MM to go to galway.

I along with thousands of others have spend the last 11 months working from my kitchen table.
And the 5km has no scientific evidence as glynn admitted. NPHET could have state 2km, 10km or any distance as it's not based on science. It was plucked from his arse.

normanoffside · 06-03-2021 11:39PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The whining over civil liberties and "blood running cold at people complying" is merely the latest madness in this thread. The idea that governments will retain these restrictions beyond their public health necessity is complete delusion.

Imagine whining over civil liberties. Disgraceful

LuckyLloyd · 06-03-2021 11:40PM

normanoffside wrote: »

Imagine whining over civil liberties. Disgraceful

Imagine civil liberties being curtailed in a time of national crisis. Inconceivable! :eek:

Bit cynical · 06-03-2021 11:41PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

If social distancing and mask wearing is credited with 0 flu deaths reported this year, who will decide to remove those at a cost of many lives and overwhelmed health services?

Who decides who dies?

This is the problem and to be honest with you I don't blame the government. As soon as the virus hit, we the people were only too glad to hand over our civil liberties in the hope that we would be protected. We've become averse to any form of risk.

FintanMcluskey · 06-03-2021 11:43PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Imagine civil liberties being curtailed in a time of national crisis. Inconceivable! :eek:

Liberties curtailed to a greater extent and for longer than other EU countries for the past year.

I think we are the most suppressed democracy in the world at present, I’ll have to check that

Despite the fact we have a natural defence to a disease that discriminately targets the elderly

growleaves · 06-03-2021 11:46PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The whining over civil liberties and "blood running cold at people complying" is merely the latest madness in this thread. The idea that governments will retain these restrictions beyond their public health necessity is complete delusion.

Such nonsense perpetuates inspite of direct examples in the likes of New Zealand and Australia where harsh lockdown has been completely relaxed once the related objectives have been achieved. Even in Wuhan, people are back moving around and living their lives in the same way they were before the collective war against the virus was kicked into gear in January 2020.

Our government has zero political motivation to keep any public health measures in place a day longer than is necessary. They also have every motivation to make this the last run of restrictions and avoid a rerun of January, hence their caution around communications and declared milestones.

The end in this is fairly obvious to me already, and it's pretty funny. The vaccination programmes around the west gather pace and transmission and severe illness starts to collapse allowing governments to remove public health restrictions. And the anti - lockdown merchants declare "victory" and claim that it was pressure from the public that "forced" the hands of policy makers. Thankfully we'll all be celebrating at that point so it will only be a mild amusement, but still.

That would be fine except the Government have already floated another Autumn-Winter lockdown, possible 2022 restrictions and in the culture at large all sorts of detritus has been put out there to sow doubt: from Long Covid to 'new variants' to "The vaccine isn't a silver bullet, guys" to 'the next pandemic' etc., etc.

Many restrictions supporters smirking out of one side of their mouth are pushing some of this garbage, while others mock anyone who doesn't think the restrictions will be winding down very soon.

The situation does't fill me with confidence. Anyway we'll soon see what happens.

normanoffside · 06-03-2021 11:48PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Imagine civil liberties being curtailed in a time of national crisis. Inconceivable! :eek:

A year long 'crisis' which will continue for a long time to come, all over a fairly minor virus which tends to only kill end of life patients.
This is where we will never agree. I don't believe there to be a crisis or state of emergency.

LuckyLloyd · 06-03-2021 11:50PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Liberties curtailed to a greater extent and for longer than other EU countries for the past year.

I think we are the most suppressed democracy in the world at present, I’ll have to check that

Despite the fact we have a natural defence to a disease that discriminately targets the elderly

Ah sure it's just the flu Fintan, isn't it?

LuckyLloyd · 06-03-2021 11:54PM

normanoffside wrote: »

A year long 'crisis' which will continue for a long time to come, all over a fairly minor virus which tends to only kill end of life patients.
This is where we will never agree. I don't believe there to be a crisis or state of emergency.

Well that's not worth engaging with to be honest.

FintanMcluskey · 06-03-2021 11:55PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ah sure it's just the flu Fintan, isn't it?

Try and up the argument Lloyd.

Penfailed · 07-03-2021 12:17AM

JRant wrote: »

Does that include the deputy CMO?
He stated the other day there was no scientific reason for the 5km travel restrictions other than it was to stop people moving around. If you have anything scientific to back it up please share. I would be interested in reading it.

So, the scientific reason is to stop people moving around. It's kinda obvious. I think it's pointless at this stage though.

tayto lover · 07-03-2021 12:21AM

I’m in my senior years and have a slight underlying condition but I’m beginning to think that the boredom and lockdown is having more adverse effects than the Covid.
I walk 8 miles a day with two friends and they feel the same way. No golf and no going to a match and having a few pints afterwards leads to serious boredom.
No sign of a foreign holiday either.

I’m so fed up of this and I have just found out that there’s actually less people dying in the country, even with the Covid being here, than there was before it arrived.

FintanMcluskey · 07-03-2021 12:23AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I’m in my senior years and have a slight underlying condition but I’m beginning to think that the boredom and lockdown is having more adverse effects than the Covid.
I walk 8 miles a day with two friends and they feel the same way. No golf and no going to a match and having a few pints afterwards leads to serious boredom.
No sign of a foreign holiday either.

I’m so fed up of this and I have just found out that there’s actually less people dying in the country, even with the Covid being here, than there was before it arrived.

Where did you find out this?

FintanMcluskey · 07-03-2021 12:25AM

Penfailed wrote: »

So, the scientific reason is to stop people moving around. It's kinda obvious. I think it's pointless at this stage though.

Have you started to change your outlook?

Just curious as you did have very different opinions until recently

Natterjack from Kerry · 07-03-2021 12:45AM

Penfailed wrote: »

So, the scientific reason is to stop people moving around. It's kinda obvious. I think it's pointless at this stage though.

It is still proving very effective though, and in fact never, even with zero cases, would be come pointless. It does stop transmission. But there does come a point where the transmission rate is low enough that maintaining it does not outweigh the costs. I would agree, that daily cases below 50 is about the mark to remove it.

ypres5 · 07-03-2021 12:47AM

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

It is still proving very effective though, and in fact never, even with zero cases, would be come pointless. It does stop transmission. But there does come a point where the transmission rate is low enough that maintaining it does not outweigh the costs. I would agree, that daily cases below 50 is about the mark to remove it.

and when are we going to reach the 50 mark especially now that schools are reopening? we should be caring more about vaccine numbers than the x number of cases good, y number of cases bad school of thought

normanoffside · 07-03-2021 12:51AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well that's not worth engaging with to be honest.

Why not Lloyd?
I am a middle aged man neither perfectly healthy nor not and according to this Oxford university risk calculator I have a 1 in 43,000 chance of dying if I caught the virus. https://qcovid.org/

That's assuming a I caught it by the way, we already know that even living with a person with the virus only gives you an 17% chance of catching it. Sleeping in the same bed as a spouse with someone who has the virus gives you a 28% chance of catching it.
https://www.cebm.net/study/the-characteristics-of-household-transmission-of-covid-19/

I've linked my studies which prove the virus is far from deadly. Where are yours?

FintanMcluskey · 07-03-2021 12:53AM

normanoffside wrote: »

A year long 'crisis' which will continue for a long time to come, all over a fairly minor virus which tends to only kill end of life patients.
This is where we will never agree. I don't believe there to be a crisis or state of emergency.

There is an emergency, one that involves an offensive discussion to solve ,but it needs to happen

https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-and-Obesity-The-2021-Atlas.pdf

We show that in those countries where overweight affects only a minority of the adult population, the rates of death from COVID-19 are typically less than one tenth the levels found in countries where overweight affects the majority of adults.

normanoffside · 07-03-2021 12:58AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

There is an emergency, one that is an offensive discussion,but it needs to happen

https://www.worldobesityday.org/assets/downloads/COVID-19-and-Obesity-The-2021-Atlas.pdf

And yet our response is to close the gyms, close the golf courses, ban people from going more than 5k for exercise, stop all sport barring elite sport, stop all kinds or races and parkrun events and encourage everyone to stay at home and get takeaway food delivered.

JRant · 07-03-2021 12:58AM

Penfailed wrote: »

So, the scientific reason is to stop people moving around. It's kinda obvious. I think it's pointless at this stage though.

I agree it's pointless at this time as well. I don't agree that there's any science behind it though. It's a completely arbitrary measure, especially when it's not used for regional restrictions and a proper test and trace program.

There's nothing to suggest people moving is the problem, it's people meeting. I could be traveling to one of theany forests within an hour or two drive with my family to enjoy some beautiful countryside rather than going to packed parks within the 5km.

FintanMcluskey · 07-03-2021 01:01AM

normanoffside wrote: »

And yet our response is to close the gyms, close the golf courses, ban people from going more than 5k for exercise, stop all sport barring elite sport, stop all kinds or races and parkrun events and encourage everyone to stay at home and get takeaway food delivered.

Handing out fines at beaches and mountain walkways by the Gardai was championed by some as a great success at combating the effects of Covid.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Comments

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings