2021 Irish Property Market chat - mod warnings post 1

Cyrus · 02-03-2021 12:36pm

PommieBast wrote: »

Given the tightness of the Irish lockdown (see various threads related to hospitality pubs) and the proposals to make work-from-home a legal right, I have doubts about that..

proposal to make requesting to work from home a legal right, its an important distinction.

awec · 02-03-2021 12:41pm

PropQueries wrote: »

With the Greens in power, if encouraging WFH isn't top of the government agenda, given its obvious environmental positives, we would then have to assume that the Greens were only brought in as cover to increase taxes on all our heating and travel costs i.e. back-door tax increases dressed up as "protecting the environment" IMO

The Greens are the minor party in government, why would any of their policies be top of the government agenda? :rolleyes:

HansKroenke · 02-03-2021 12:41pm

Cyrus wrote: »

In the interests of balance on the whole WFH thing,

the Goldman Sachs CEO says its an aberration and not the new normal for them at least

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/25/goldman-sachs-ceo-solomon-calls-working-from-home-an-aberration-.html

Bojo tends to agree

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/27/coronavirus-boris-johnson-workers-will-return-to-offices-in-a-few-short-months

I think there are wealthy persons connected to the tory government and GS in whose financial interest it would be to have the offices filled with worker bees. There is also in my observation a link between the age of the person and the statement that the office is not dead; generally it is baby boomers. However, in my close group of friends, all in our early 30s, we are unanimous in our view that WFH is going to be essential going forward, with the extent of the hybrid model the only divergence in our own needs (that being said, it seems to be more like 1/2 days in the office per week which is preferred rather than 3/4 days in the office for those that would like to go back in).

After a year of WFH, with no strong push to get people back in until post-winter 2021, I have already adapted my living situation to the new normal which consists of predominantly WFH. We have moved out of Dublin to rent by the sea, with a lot more space (still renting), so I am now a lot more keen to avoid going into the office when the chance presents itself again. Life can't be put on hold forever and after a year of WFH, people must be allowed to start changing their living situation to adapt to this new scenario.

I've said it before possibly in this thread, but having gone into the office three times per week from June to October last year, I realise that people who get nostalgic for the office will lose their interest in returning once they start going in again. The WFH situation right now might feel draining but that is because there is no way to switch off with the social restrictions imposed on every day life. Once you can start going to cafes, bars, restaurants, meeting people, travelling, shopping etc. it will be far easier to switch off. As well, this WFH situation was sprung upon us with little time for people to get a proper desk, move to a bigger apartment that isn't within close proximity to the office etc., but when people have a chance to plan their next move they will be bale to look for the extra room for a home office which will make it a lot easier.

Some of the things that I had forgotten about during WFH March - June last year, that I really could do without in my working life; the commute; sitting at a desk in an office to do work with a feeling of being monitored and not having little home comforts nearby like your own kitchen and bathroom, pets, TV for those 10/15 minute breaks; having less time with your partner (and kids if you have them); being distracted a lot more with colleagues looking to chat or just generally making noise in the office and hogging the microwave or coffee machine. The novelty of going back to the office will grow thin for a lot of people who think they want to go back now, I am certain of this.

Cyrus · 02-03-2021 12:46pm

HansKroenke wrote: »

However, in my generation of those in our 30s, we are unanimous in our view that WFH is going to be essential going forward

really? speak for yourself by all means but speaking unanimously for people in their 30s is beyond presumptuous.

HansKroenke · 02-03-2021 12:48pm

Cyrus wrote: »

really? speak for yourself by all means but speaking unanimously for people in their 30s is beyond presumptuous.

I meant to phrase that as in my close group of friends, all in our 30s.

awec · 02-03-2021 12:48pm

HansKroenke wrote: »

I think there are wealthy persons connected to the tory government and GS in whose financial interest it would be to have the offices filled with worker bees. There is also in my observation a link between the age of the person and the statement that the office is not dead; generally it is baby boomers. However, in my generation of those in our 30s, we are unanimous in our view that WFH is going to be essential going forward, with the extent of the hybrid model the only divergence in our own needs (that being said, it seems to be more like 1/2 days in the office per week which is preferred rather than 3/4 days in the office for those that would like to go back in).

After a year of WFH, with no strong push to get people back in until post-winter 2021, I have already adapted my living situation to the new normal which consists of predominantly WFH. We have moved out of Dublin to rent by the sea, with a lot more space (still renting), so I am now a lot more keen to avoid going into the office when the chance presents itself again. Life can't be put on hold forever and after a year of WFH, people must be allowed to start changing their living situation to adapt to this new scenario.

I've said it before possibly in this thread, but having gone into the office three times per week from June to October last year, I realise that people who get nostalgic for the office will lose their interest in returning once they start going in again. The WFH situation right now might feel draining but that is because there is no way to switch off with the social restrictions imposed on every day life. Once you can start going to cafes, bars, restaurants, meeting people, travelling, shopping etc. it will be far easier to switch off. As well, this WFH situation was sprung upon us with little time for people to get a proper desk, move to a bigger apartment that isn't within close proximity to the office etc., but when people have a chance to plan their next move they will be bale to look for the extra room for a home office which will make it a lot easier.

Some of the things that I had forgotten about during WFH March - June last year, that I really could do without in my working life; the commute; sitting at a desk in an office to do work with a feeling of being monitored and not having little home comforts nearby like your own kitchen and bathroom, pets, TV for those 10/15 minute breaks; having less time with your partner (and kids if you have them); being distracted a lot more with colleagues looking to chat or just generally making noise in the office and hogging the microwave or coffee machine. The novelty of going back to the office will grow thin for a lot of people who think they want to go back now, I am certain of this.

Whether the novelty wears off or not is of no real relevance, it is not like employees get to decide whatever they want based on their own whims. It is always going to be a balance between the needs of the employer and the needs of the employee.

It is why the hybrid approach is so popular, it is a compromise and it suits both.

There are a few getting very far ahead of themselves in their excitement to declare that offices are dead.

HansKroenke · 02-03-2021 12:50pm

awec wrote: »

Whether the novelty wears off or not is of no real relevance, it is not like employees get to decide whatever they want based on their own whims.

I wouldn't be so sure that it is on the whims of employees. The companies which offer more attractive WFH packages will attract employees from the more rigid environments.

And of course, it is government policy to push WFH so it has a tidal wave of support which means the choice for companies will be to embrace it or lose employees. To not accept that is to the detriment of managers.

awec · 02-03-2021 12:52pm

HansKroenke wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure that it is on the whims of employees. The companies which offer more attractive WFH packages will attract employees from the more rigid environments.

And of course, it is government policy to push WFH so it is a tidal wave of support which means the choice for companies will be to embrace it or lose employees. To not accept that is to the detriment of managers.

If all else is equal, yes, but you are being overly simplistic.

WFH will absolutely grow as a result of this, people will work from home more often. Those that think there's going to be a sudden and mass transition to fully remote work are going to be disappointed.

HansKroenke · 02-03-2021 12:54pm

awec wrote: »

If all else is equal, yes, but you are being overly simplistic.

WFH will absolutely grow as a result of this, people will work from home more often. Those that think there's going to be a sudden and mass transition to fully remote work are going to be disappointed.

That's what we have had for a year now and it is going to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

PropQueries · 02-03-2021 12:56pm

awec wrote: »

Whether the novelty wears off or not is of no real relevance, it is not like employees get to decide whatever they want based on their own whims. It is always going to be a balance between the needs of the employer and the needs of the employee.

It is why the hybrid approach is so popular, it is a compromise and it suits both.

There are a few getting very far ahead of themselves in their excitement to declare that offices are dead.

Most companies don't yet know that the "hybrid" approach will work in real life and are just "hoping".

It can't work. How can employees in different teams "collaborate" if one team is out Thursday and Friday and the other team is out Monday and Tuesday.

Many companies will quickly realise it's either fully WFH or fully in the office.

A mix of both is absolute nonsense thinking IMO.

fliball123 · 02-03-2021 12:57pm

HansKroenke wrote: »

That's what we have had for a year now and it is going to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

its not so do you think teachers are going to work from home in future or specialists within the HSE who have been doing zoom calls..It cant work for everyone . A one size fits all is not going to work with working from home. Out of my family members myself and a brother of mine so 2 out of 10 are allowed to work from home after lockdown the other 8 have to go back in to work. I can hazard a guess there will be a lot of people like that.

awec · 02-03-2021 12:57pm

HansKroenke wrote: »

That's what we have had for a year now and it is going to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

Not really, what we've had is a government imposed forced work from home.

It is going to stay this way until restrictions are lifted and the true nature of the hybrid model reveals itself.

Hybrid work is here to stay, I won't dispute that. People will shift from WFH rarely to doing it often, maybe even the majority of their time.

But if people believe that 100% remote work is going to become the new norm they are going to be really disappointed.

awec · 02-03-2021 12:58pm

PropQueries wrote: »

Most companies don't yet know that the "hybrid" approach will work in real life and are just "hoping".

It can't work. How can employees in different teams "collaborate" if one team is out Thursday and Friday and the other team is out Monday and Tuesday.

Companies will quickly realise it's either fully WFH or fully in the office.

A mix of both is absolutely nonsense thinking IMO.

This is another one of your facts that exists only in your head PropQueries. Time and time again you display ignorance of these companies and how they operate.

Hybrid working is nothing new. Many of these companies have been doing it for years. It has worked for years, maybe even decades in some cases. They are changing from WFH being 1 or 2 days a week to going to the office being 1 or 2 days a week. It's just inverting what has already been done.

HansKroenke · 02-03-2021 1:01pm

awec wrote: »

Not really, what we've had is a government imposed forced work from home.

It is going to stay this way until restrictions are lifted and the true nature of the hybrid model reveals itself.

Hybrid work is here to stay, I won't dispute that. People will shift from WFH rarely to doing it often, maybe even the majority of their time.

But if people believe that 100% remote work is going to become the new norm they are going to be really disappointed.

Yes, fair enough. I think we are just in disagreement in respect of the extent to which WFH will look more like a hybrid model or full WFH. Outlining my own situation and experience with close friends as well as from reading the government policy document is why I feel that closer to full WFH is going to be in areas not just limited to Big Tech and will also be seen in more traditional areas like insurance, law, accounting and finance.

PropQueries · 02-03-2021 1:03pm

awec wrote: »

This is another one of your facts that exists only in your head PropQueries. Time and time again you display ignorance of these companies and how they operate.

Hybrid working is nothing new. Many of these companies have been doing it for years. It has worked for years, maybe even decades in some cases. They are changing from WFH being 1 or 2 days a week to going to the office being 1 or 2 days a week. It's just inverting what has already been done.

Well, you can either WFH or you can't. There is absolutely no point in forcing workers into the office for two days per week if they can WFH perfectly well the other three days.

For "collaboration", "team building" etc., they can book a meeting room in the Hilton once a month IMO

Cyrus · 02-03-2021 1:03pm

PropQueries wrote: »

Many companies will quickly realise it's either fully WFH or fully in the office.

A mix of both is absolute nonsense thinking IMO.

i couldnt disagree with you more. Some kind of mix will be the future, but anyone i speak to its looking like 3/4 days in 1/2 days FH.

You will have outliers that are happy for everyone to WFH all the time but that experiment wont last either.

HansKroenke · 02-03-2021 1:04pm

fliball123 wrote: »

its not so do you think teachers are going to work from home in future or specialists within the HSE who have been doing zoom calls..It cant work for everyone . A one size fits all is not going to work with working from home. Out of my family members myself and a brother of mine so 2 out of 10 are allowed to work from home after lockdown the other 8 have to go back in to work. I can hazard a guess there will be a lot of people like that.

Yes, of course teachers cannot WFH but normal office jobs which have been full WFH the past year are more likely to stay that way, in my view the hybrid model is what will be used but by "hybrid" I mean minimal time in the office rather than a split of more often than not in the office. The 3/4 days per week in the office will be a maximum and will be optional.

fliball123 · 02-03-2021 1:08pm

PropQueries wrote: »

Well, you can either WFH or you can't. There is absolutely no point in forcing workers into the office for two days per week if they can WFH perfectly well the other three days.

For "collaboration", "team building" etc., they can book a meeting room in the Hilton once a month IMO

The other side of this is I know some people who hate working from home , as has been explained to me. They have no structure, hate being constantly at home and miss being where they work. I think it will be a complete mix going forward.

tigger123 · 02-03-2021 1:09pm

PropQueries wrote: »

Well, you can either WFH or you can't. There is absolutely no point in forcing workers into the office for two days per week if they can WFH perfectly well the other three days.

For "collaboration", "team building" etc., they can book a meeting room in the Hilton once a month IMO

It's not about forcing them in. It's about employees wanting themselves to have a mix. Less commuting and hassle, but still some of the social aspect of working as part of a team. It's quite straightforward.

PropQueries · 02-03-2021 1:10pm

HansKroenke wrote: »

Yes, of course teachers cannot WFH but normal office jobs which have been full WFH the past year are more likely to stay that way, in my view the hybrid model is what will be used but by "hybrid" I mean minimal time in the office rather than a split of more often than not in the office. The 3/4 days per week in the office will be a maximum and will be optional.

Actually I think the Hybrid model will be brought in for teachers in the very near future.

Given that all the online homework etc. can be analysed in real time and they can then see what students need extra help etc., the teachers will be primarily available in class two days a week to cater for the e.g. 30% of students who are having difficulties IMO

Everyone benefits.

The extra empty classrooms can then be used as cheap childcare space for other types of workers who can't WFH etc.

Cyrus · 02-03-2021 1:14pm

PropQueries wrote: »

Actually I think the Hybrid model will be brought in for teachers in the very near future.

Given that all the online homework etc. can be analysed in real time and they can then see what students need extra help etc., the teachers will be primarily available in class two days a week to cater for the e.g. 30% of students who are having difficulties IMO

Everyone benefits.

The extra empty classrooms can then be used as cheap childcare space for other types of workers who can't WFH etc.

so kids don't goto school any more either

sorry im out, i know this is just a wind up now.

tigger123 · 02-03-2021 1:14pm

PropQueries wrote: »

Actually I think the Hybrid model will be brought in for teachers in the very near future.

Given that all the online homework etc. can be analysed in real time and they can then see what students need extra help etc., the teachers will be primarily available in class two days a week to cater for the e.g. 30% of students who are having difficulties IMO

Everyone benefits.

The extra empty classrooms can then be used as cheap childcare space for other types of workers who can't WFH etc.

You can't see the hybrid model working for adults.

But it's definitely going to be used to educate children and young people?

PropQueries · 02-03-2021 1:17pm

tigger123 wrote: »

You can't see the hybrid model working for adults.

But it's definitely going to be used to educate children and young people?

Correct.

There's a real benefit from hybrid working in the teaching system. There's absolutely no benefit from hybrid working in a regular office environment IMO.

tigger123 · 02-03-2021 1:25pm

PropQueries wrote: »

Correct.

There's a real benefit from hybrid working in the teaching system. There's absolutely no benefit from hybrid working in a regular office environment IMO.

Have you ever worked yourself as part of a team in a hybrid working set up?

Or tried supervising children who are being educated remotely?

HansKroenke · 02-03-2021 1:27pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/weekly-earnings-rise-by-unprecedented-7-5-but-figures-mask-covid-impact-1.4499012

Trouble brewing and there looks to be a huge job for the government to get the recovery going as soon as possible. On paper, weekly earnings rose by 7.5% for workers last year, but this excluded a quarter of the workforce (600,000) who were not employed or on some sort of income protection payment. With an impending US stimulus due to flood the market, inflation is going to increase, almost certainly. Those 75% of workers will need every penny of their earnings and not have it hoovered up in some form of covid tax.

PropQueries · 02-03-2021 1:29pm

tigger123 wrote: »

Have you ever worked yourself as part of a team in a hybrid working set up?

Or tried supervising children who are being educated remotely?

I'm sure families will adjust. Just like when the changeover happened from when women used to stay at home to raise the children and the man went out to work.

Full time WFH and hybrid teaching will be fantastic for raising families and for society in general IMO

tigger123 · 02-03-2021 1:32pm

PropQueries wrote: »

I'm sure families will adjust. Just like when the changeover happened from when women used to stay at home to raise the children and the man went out to work.

Full time WFH and hybrid teaching will be fantastic for raising families and for society in general IMO

Maybe they would. But I am just curious what your own experience of it is? Or what your basing your opinion on.

I can't see anyone anywhere that has said that educating children remotely forever more would be a good idea. If it was, there would be no pressure to get schools back.

Cyrus · 02-03-2021 1:32pm

PropQueries wrote: »

I'm sure families will adjust. Just like when the changeover happened from when women used to stay at home to raise the children and the man went out to work.

Full time WFH and hybrid teaching will be fantastic for raising families and for society in general IMO

maybe everyone should just build massive walls around their houses and never leave, because thats what you are advocating in essence.

Hubertj · 02-03-2021 1:32pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/dublin-most-popular-city-for-brexit-relocations-by-financial-firms-1.4498397

Last year some of the experts/spoofers on this thread said all these companies and jobs went elsewhere. Clearly these companies weren’t consulting boards before making such decisions.

JimmyVik · 02-03-2021 1:36pm

PropQueries wrote: »

Correct.

There's a real benefit from hybrid working in the teaching system. There's absolutely no benefit from hybrid working in a regular office environment IMO.

As someone who is teaching and attending course for work since the pandemic started. And also as a parent of a school child.

I can 100% say that remote learning and teaching is the biggest pito since time began.
I hate it. Dont mind working from home, but courses (teaching/learning) and supervising children for school is horrible.

2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

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2021 Irish Property Market chat - mod warnings post 1