How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

BonnieSituation · 26-02-2021 10:18PM

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

I've opened a bottle of football special!

Football Special and candy corn... Brave woman

BonnieSituation · 26-02-2021 10:19PM

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Decided on during the meeting with illegal organisations.

Yeah but Republicans something something

FrancieBrady · 26-02-2021 10:26PM

The symbolism of the border moving to the British coast is worse than a border in the Irish Sea, which can be the only response unless Boris wants war with us in the EU. He didn't come off well the last time.

RobMc59 · 26-02-2021 10:26PM

Massive investment deal in Derry with over one hundred million pounds each by the Northern Ireland executive and the UK government.
Rather flies in the face of the codswallop spouted by our resident republicans I`d say.

https://www.derrynow.com/news/news/612268/key-agreement-to-be-signed-today-as-part-of-plans-for-250m-investment-in-derry-s-council-area.html

BonnieSituation · 26-02-2021 10:31PM

What' are you on about?

Derry has long being crying out for investment. It's about bloody time.

Should Nationalists get on the ground and kiss the feet for some scraps from the table?

Fionn1952 · 26-02-2021 11:36PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Massive investment deal in Derry with over one hundred million pounds each by the Northern Ireland executive and the UK government.
Rather flies in the face of the codswallop spouted by our resident republicans I`d say.

https://www.derrynow.com/news/news/612268/key-agreement-to-be-signed-today-as-part-of-plans-for-250m-investment-in-derry-s-council-area.html

Said with all the confidence of someone with no idea how badly the West has been neglected with regards to investment for decades, compared with the (purely coincidentally I'm sure...) huge investment made in the (largely Protestant) North East of NI. While I'm certainly glad to see it for once, it really isn't the big deal you seem to think.

How exactly does it fly in the face of anything said by anyone on here? I challenge you to find a single post which this article, 'flies in the face of'.

27-02-2021 02:27AM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Said with all the confidence of someone with no idea how badly the West has been neglected with regards to investment for decades, compared with the (purely coincidentally I'm sure...) huge investment made in the (largely Protestant) North East of NI. While I'm certainly glad to see it for once, it really isn't the big deal you seem to think.

How exactly does it fly in the face of anything said by anyone on here? I challenge you to find a single post which this article, 'flies in the face of'.

Rob doesnt reply to questions

RobMc59 · 27-02-2021 06:13AM

How strange that something like this provokes all this bile and negativity amongst republicans.All from posters who either don't live in NI or have moved away from there.
Everytime I post something positive about NI this is the default reaction from these posters Obviously they have no wish for NI to prosper.

downcow · 27-02-2021 07:40AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

How strange that something like this provokes all this bile and negatively amongst republicans.All from posters who either don't live in NI or have moved away from there.
Everytime I post something positive about NI this is the default reaction from these posters Obviously they have no wish for NI to prosper.

Yes that’s the sad situation rob.
The nonsense Fionn talks about investment in the north east of ni. No region of the U.K. has got anything like the level of support that the entire region of ni has got over last 50 years, and everyone should be very grateful.

The republicans on here also want to ignore that the ira were devastating the west and south of ni for decades.

The most of the money spent on ni by the U.K. for the last three decades of the 20th century was spent on the south and west of ni. Also at the same time the ira drove out many of the most innovative and successful business entrepreneurs in the south and west. I can think of several very successful business people who left successful businesses in my area, who are now running successful businesses in the north east of ni and in England. They were driven out because they went to the wrong church on a Sunday.

Republicans have the most effect rosy tinted glasses I ever seen, and the problems are always someone else’s fault.

How many of you can admit that the single greatest negative impact on the south and west of ni is/was the ira?

Fionn1952 · 27-02-2021 09:46AM

downcow wrote: »

Yes that’s the sad situation rob.
The nonsense Fionn talks about investment in the north east of ni. No region of the U.K. has got anything like the level of support that the entire region of ni has got over last 50 years, and everyone should be very grateful

Yes Downcow, NI has received a tremendous amount of support via fiscal transfers. This is necessary because it is an economic black hole in desperate need of reform.

100% historically part of that was due to the actions of the PIRA (who wants to invest when their building could be bombed tomorrow), though they have been on ceasefire for almost 30 years, so perhaps it would be worth looking elsewhere for reasons why it hasn't improved significantly in the period since? (By this I mean economically, the place has of course improved in other ways since. I'd say a reasonable comparison would be the economic growth of the place compared with any of its neighbours in the period since '98).

You're also deflecting from my point and addressing a strawman. I did not state that the NI region did not receive a tremendous amount of support over the last 50 years, I stated that investment in NI has disproportionately been in the (traditionally Unionist) North East part of the place. A basic analysis of infrastructure would show this to be true.

Tell me what exactly I should be grateful for in Fermanagh?

Edit: I'll try again since you keep refusing to address it. Was the, 'potential gamechanger' (to use your own terminology) you previously referenced the legal challenge discussed on thread, and was the, 'cross party support' in Britain you referenced essentially just Kate Hoey and a bloke from the Brexit Party? I'm not sure why you're so reluctant to clarify this.

Fionn1952 · 27-02-2021 09:47AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

How strange that something like this provokes all this bile and negativity amongst republicans.All from posters who either don't live in NI or have moved away from there.
Everytime I post something positive about NI this is the default reaction from these posters Obviously they have no wish for NI to prosper.

Rather than another rant about Republicans, how about actually addressing the post?

I stated that I was happy to see the investment, but the area had been horrendously neglected with regards to investment for far too long. If you actually knew the place instead of looking through your rose-tinted Rule Britannia glasses, you'd understand this.

So I'll ask again, Rob - provide ONE quote that this investment, 'flies in the face of' as you stated.

Natterjack from Kerry · 27-02-2021 09:58AM

downcow wrote: »

Yes that’s the sad situation rob.
The nonsense Fionn talks about investment in the north east of ni. No region of the U.K. has got anything like the level of support that the entire region of ni has got over last 50 years, and everyone should be very grateful.

The republicans on here also want to ignore that the ira were devastating the west and south of ni for decades.

The subvention spent over the last 50 years on NI was to make up for the damage done to the region by the IRA terrorism, which decimated normal business activity, investment, growth, and prosperity.

Provisional Sinn Fein then has the gall to suggest that the region is a failed one : well if you destroy it with terror, and smash its economy, well, who is to blame for that?

downcow · 27-02-2021 10:01AM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yes Downcow, NI has received a tremendous amount of support via fiscal transfers. This is necessary because it is an economic black hole in desperate need of reform.

100% historically part of that was due to the actions of the PIRA (who wants to invest when their building could be bombed tomorrow), though they have been on ceasefire for almost 30 years, so perhaps it would be worth looking elsewhere for reasons why it hasn't improved significantly in the period since?

You're also deflecting from my point and addressing a strawman. I did not state that the NI region did not receive a tremendous amount of support over the last 50 years, I stated that investment in NI has disproportionately been in the (traditionally Unionist) North East part of the place. A basic analysis of infrastructure would show this to be true.

Tell me what exactly I should be grateful for in Fermanagh?

Firstly, it will take generations to recover from the sectarian conflict. There are also lots of people on here regularly blamed stuff the Brits done hundreds of years ago for their problems today so I think it is entirely reasonable to naming stuff that happened in recent living memory

I will day again that the vast majority of the british spending in the last 3 decades of 20th century was in republican areas.
Ironically, because most of those with the balls to join or carry out work for the security forces came from Protestant areas, lots of the money made its way to be spent in shops and businesses in Protestant areas.
Also because the ira select Protestant premises and homes for bombing, it means those now make up a bigger percentage of the new modern buildings.

Natterjack from Kerry · 27-02-2021 10:05AM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I stated that investment in NI has disproportionately been in the (traditionally Unionist) North East part of the place. A basic analysis of infrastructure would show this to be true.

How do you know it is true without even a basic analysis?

There will of course be more, in absolute terms - that's the nature of largest cities who will have the motorways, airports, ports, and be the first choice for large enterprises.

But how do you know, or do you really know, that it is disproportionate?

Fionn1952 · 27-02-2021 10:28AM

downcow wrote: »

Firstly, it will take generations to recover from the sectarian conflict. There are also lots of people on here regularly blamed stuff the Brits done hundreds of years ago for their problems today so I think it is entirely reasonable to naming stuff that happened in recent living memory

I will day again that the vast majority of the british spending in the last 3 decades of 20th century was in republican areas.
Ironically, because most of those with the balls to join or carry out work for the security forces came from Protestant areas, lots of the money made its way to be spent in shops and businesses in Protestant areas.
Also because the ira select Protestant premises and homes for bombing, it means those now make up a bigger percentage of the new modern buildings.

I've acknowledged that the PIRA campaign is partially responsible for the state of the NI economy, Downcow, and indeed it could take generations to fully recover from that....the issue is that we are a generation and a half out and aren't even seeing the green shoots.

If by the vast majority of British spending was in Republican areas, you're including the cost of policing/keeping army boots on the ground you might be right.....but I'm talking about infrastructure investment and job attracting investment, for which West of the Bann has been badly starved of. We can play a game if you'd like, you name a government funded investment in either infrastructure or attracting jobs in the last 50 years that happened West of the Bann, I'll name one in the North East and we can see who runs out first? I'm confident it won't be me.

I don't know how you're trying to link centrally funded infrastructure spending to local spending in the shops, Downcow....but let's just accept that it isn't the greatest of arguments and move on. While I don't doubt that the areas with the greatest amount of security force recruitment received a disproportionate amount of investment (a point you seem to be trying to dispute in the first half of your argument, but acknowledge and attempt to justify in the latter half), it is laughable to suggest that its because they were buying a new sofa more often in these places.

Also, since you seem to have missed it again (and even accidentally deleted it from the post you quoted), I'll ask again

Was the, 'potential gamechanger' (to use your own terminology) you previously referenced the legal challenge discussed on thread, and was the, 'cross party support' in Britain you referenced essentially just Kate Hoey and a bloke from the Brexit Party? I'm not sure why you're so reluctant to clarify this.

Natterjack from Kerry · 27-02-2021 10:47AM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

the issue is that we are a generation and a half out and aren't even seeing the green shoots.

It takes little time to damage a brand, and very long time to rebuild one. NI is a damaged brand internationally due to the IRA.

That is why NI must make its own future, not dream that all would be fine if it joined brand Eire, but seize the phenomenally good deal the Brexit fallout has handed it, and exploit and rebuild itself economically as a dual status region, effectively both part of the UK, and of the EU trade zone.
When I am up in the UK, I do business with companies there and no-one talks about nationalism or republicanism or unionism. They do the same with their customers and suppliers on the mainland. There are great business opportunities at hand for a real revitalising of NI now, and that's all anyone should be focused on.

(someone mentioned empty shelves in Sainsburys : top tip - never come back south without picking up some of their chilled pizzas. Top notch)

27-02-2021 10:55AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

How strange that something like this provokes all this bile and negativity amongst republicans.All from posters who either don't live in NI or have moved away from there.
Everytime I post something positive about NI this is the default reaction from these posters Obviously they have no wish for NI to prosper.

Show me where the bile and negativity was posted about this,and while you are at it can you answer my question why did you vote to remain with a "nest of vipers" in charge of the eu?

RobMc59 · 27-02-2021 11:05AM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Rather than another rant about Republicans, how about actually addressing the post?

I stated that I was happy to see the investment, but the area had been horrendously neglected with regards to investment for far too long. If you actually knew the place instead of looking through your rose-tinted Rule Britannia glasses, you'd understand this.

So I'll ask again, Rob - provide ONE quote that this investment, 'flies in the face of' as you stated.

The general reaction (I acknowledge you are happy to see the investment)is so negative and derogatory towards NI.
Just because I'm English doesn't mean I'm unfamiliar with Derry.I think it's a vibrant city and enjoy spending time there.
My comments regarding investment in NI was commenting on the fanciful notion prompted by most republicans here that the UK government overlooks NI.

RobMc59 · 27-02-2021 11:10AM

droidman123 wrote: »

Show me where the bile and negativity was posted about this,and while you are at it can you answer my question why did you vote to remain with a "nest of vipers" in charge of the eu?

Just posting about this investment has provoked a furious reaction amongst republicans here.
My comments about a nest of vipers was aimed specifically at the bureaucrats in brussels,not the nations of the EU.

FrancieBrady · 27-02-2021 11:11AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

The general reaction (I acknowledge you are happy to see the investment)is so negative and derogatory towards NI.
Just because I'm English doesn't mean I'm unfamiliar with Derry.I think it's a vibrant city and enjoy spending time there.
My comments regarding investment in NI was commenting on the fanciful notion prompted by most republicans here that the UK government overlooks NI.

Rob, the UK government shafted NI Unionists for their own selfish interests...have you not been following? Overlooked? They totally ignored them and bull****ted them, then shafted them and they will do it again.

If you want to see what cities and regions in the 'UK' are missing out on and are going to miss out on going forward, read about Cornwall and Sunderland. Derry is lucky to get this no doubt but it is long long overdue.

Fionn1952 · 27-02-2021 11:22AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

The general reaction (I acknowledge you are happy to see the investment)is so negative and derogatory towards NI.
Just because I'm English doesn't mean I'm unfamiliar with Derry.I think it's a vibrant city and enjoy spending time there.
My comments regarding investment in NI was commenting on the fanciful notion prompted by most republicans here that the UK government overlooks NI.

My request stands, all I'm asking for is that you provide a quote which this investment, 'flies in the face of'.

I've visited most major cities in the UK, Rob.....I wouldn't try having an authoritative discussion with people who spent most of their life living nearby based on having a wee holiday there, so while I'm not saying your experience is totally invalid, I am saying that perhaps those who live in the area might have a bit more knowledge of the subject than someone who spent a few days holidaying there, experiencing the city as a tourist rather than going through the likes of trying to find employment in the area (particularly high value employment- a topic close to my heart as the main reason I left the North, even taking the higher living costs into account, my salary here is vastly superior compared with living in the North, and growth opportunities beyond my level at the time I moved practically non-existent) or dealing with awful infrastructure (I suggest looking up a map of motorways and rail services in the North for some context on this).

RobMc59 · 27-02-2021 11:24AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rob, the UK government shafted NI Unionists for their own selfish interests...have you not been following? Overlooked? They totally ignored them and bull****ted them, then shafted them and they will do it again.

If you want to see what cities and regions in the 'UK' are missing out on and are going to miss out on going forward, read about Cornwall and Sunderland. Derry is lucky to get this no doubt but it is long long overdue.

Francie,don't you understand Unionism doesn't just exist in NI.The whole UK is built on Unionism.
Unionism in NI is one part of it.
I don't dispute there are poor regions in the UK which I attribute to years of tory austerity and failure to invest.Britain isn't the only country guilty of this.
Investment is required in Ireland for example,transport links to NW Ireland is lacking and border counties are crying out for Investment.
I believe,wherever you go ,regardless of country the regions nearest the capital get the lions share of funding imo.

mehico · 27-02-2021 11:30AM

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

That is why NI must make its own future, not dream that all would be fine if it joined brand Eire, but seize the phenomenally good deal the Brexit fallout has handed it, and exploit and rebuild itself economically as a dual status region, effectively both part of the UK, and of the EU trade zone.

In a hypothetical scenario, I wonder in the event of a future border poll being successful would the new unified Ireland have access to both EU and UK markets in a similar way?

I would say it is something that could not be completly ruled out at least for a period of time.

FrancieBrady · 27-02-2021 11:32AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,don't you understand Unionism doesn't just exist in NI.The whole UK is built on Unionism.
Unionism in NI is one part of it.
I don't dispute there are poor regions in the UK which I attribute to years of tory austerity and failure to invest.Britain isn't the only country guilty of this.
Investment is required in Ireland for example,transport links to NW Ireland is lacking and border counties are crying out for Investment.
I believe,wherever you go ,regardless of country the regions nearest the capital get the lions share of funding imo.

Rob...they shafted NI Unionists...stating that the UK is built on it, makes the shafting all the more profound, it doesn't diminish it.

Have to say, you flew past the comment about what regions in the UK will now be missing out on with all the aplomb of the Red Arrows there. Beautifully done!

RobMc59 · 27-02-2021 11:43AM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

My request stands, all I'm asking for is that you provide a quote which this investment, 'flies in the face of'.

I've visited most major cities in the UK, Rob.....I wouldn't try having an authoritative discussion with people who spent most of their life living nearby based on having a wee holiday there, so while I'm not saying your experience is totally invalid, I am saying that perhaps those who live in the area might have a bit more knowledge of the subject than someone who spent a few days holidaying there, experiencing the city as a tourist rather than going through the likes of trying to find employment in the area (particularly high value employment- a topic close to my heart as the main reason I left the North, even taking the higher living costs into account, my salary here is vastly superior compared with living in the North, and growth opportunities beyond my level at the time I moved practically non-existent) or dealing with awful infrastructure (I suggest looking up a map of motorways and rail services in the North for some context on this).

Fionn,I'm aware many major companies have invested in Ireland,I'm not disputing that.As I've said in previous posts, any reporting of positive news about NI is belittled by republicans who don't want NI to prosper as its against their agenda imo.
I don't know when you moved from NI although it's common for republican posters to deride Britain even though they don't live there,what's so wrong with me singing the praises of NI even though I don't live there.?
I've always kept a close eye on employment opportunities in NI/Ireland and agree there are more available in Ireland but there are decent jobs available in NI imo.
If anything,I'd say there's a shortage of qualified people in both..

27-02-2021 11:54AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Just posting about this investment has provoked a furious reaction amongst republicans here.
My comments about a nest of vipers was aimed specifically at the bureaucrats in brussels,not the nations of the EU.

Yes i know that,but if thats your feelings,why did you vote to remain?

RobMc59 · 27-02-2021 11:56AM

droidman123 wrote: »

Yes i know that,but if thats your feelings,why did you vote to remain?

I think the UK would have been better off remaining in the EU. Criticism of brussels regarding their overbearing approach is something else.

Fionn1952 · 27-02-2021 11:57AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fionn,I'm aware many major companies have invested in Ireland,I'm not disputing that.As I've said in previous posts, any reporting of positive news about NI is belittled by republicans who don't want NI to prosper as its against their agenda imo.
I don't know when you moved from NI although it's common for republican posters to deride Britain even though they don't live there,what's so wrong with me singing the praises of NI even though I don't live there.?
I've always kept a close eye on employment opportunities in NI/Ireland and agree there are more available in Ireland but there are decent jobs available in NI imo.
If anything,I'd say there's a shortage of qualified people in both..

Once more, I'd ask for specifics Rob. Actual quotes from posters that are in any way relevant to this investment.

A Republican poster (rightly or wrongly so we don't go down that rabbit hole) deriding the impact that Britain has had in Ireland doesn't require direct experience with living in Britain; they require direct experience with the impact Britain has had on Ireland. You're trying to discuss the local economy of specific parts of NI and your experience is that you had a holiday there and claim to look at a few job boards.

It is unbelievable how far off the mark you are in this particular case though; it is well documented how dependent NI is on public sector employment (another one of the boasts when claiming that unification is unaffordable, conveniently forgotten about when trying to argue the contradictory position about NI prosperity), it is well documented that it has struggled to attract inward investment that is even remotely comparable to that of the rest of Ireland. There is a well documented brain drain issue with NI, with students going off to University and not coming back due to lack of local opportunities (this particular issue impacts on the Unionist community disproportionately, being more likely to attend university in Britain and stay there).

But you visited Derry once and looked on a jobs board, so obviously you know more about the local economy and employment prospects than people who lived in it.

RobMc59 · 27-02-2021 01:24PM

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Once more, I'd ask for specifics Rob. Actual quotes from posters that are in any way relevant to this investment.

A Republican poster (rightly or wrongly so we don't go down that rabbit hole) deriding the impact that Britain has had in Ireland doesn't require direct experience with living in Britain; they require direct experience with the impact Britain has had on Ireland. You're trying to discuss the local economy of specific parts of NI and your experience is that you had a holiday there and claim to look at a few job boards.

It is unbelievable how far off the mark you are in this particular case though; it is well documented how dependent NI is on public sector employment (another one of the boasts when claiming that unification is unaffordable, conveniently forgotten about when trying to argue the contradictory position about NI prosperity), it is well documented that it has struggled to attract inward investment that is even remotely comparable to that of the rest of Ireland. There is a well documented brain drain issue with NI, with students going off to University and not coming back due to lack of local opportunities (this particular issue impacts on the Unionist community disproportionately, being more likely to attend university in Britain and stay there).

But you visited Derry once and looked on a jobs board, so obviously you know more about the local economy and employment prospects than people who lived in it.

Been coming to Ireland over 40 years with a wife from Drogheda so probably a bit more than a single holiday visit to Derry. I've never noticed any striking difference between the two places(Ireland/NI).I understand the difference in salaries etc but also know the cost of living is considerably higher in Ireland.
You don't tend to deride the UK although many of your fellow posters of a republican persuasion do.The same ones have pulled me up saying I don't live in Ireland/NI but the fact they don't live in the UK apparently sails over their heads when they're criticising the UK on the myriad of anti UK threads.

Fionn1952 · 27-02-2021 01:50PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Been coming to Ireland over 40 years with a wife from Drogheda so probably a bit more than a single holiday visit to Derry. I've never noticed any striking difference between the two places(Ireland/NI).I understand the difference in salaries etc but also know the cost of living is considerably higher in Ireland.
You don't tend to deride the UK although many of your fellow posters of a republican persuasion do.The same ones have pulled me up saying I don't live in Ireland/NI but the fact they don't live in the UK apparently sails over their heads when they're criticising the UK on the myriad of anti UK threads.

As I've said before Rob, Republicans aren't hive mind. If you have a criticism towards another poster, address it to them rather than trying to shoehorn it into a discussion with me.

I still contend that no amount of holidays to Drogheda with the occasional day up in Derry is comparable to the experience of actually living somewhere. Namely because you don't have to actually deal with the day to day earning a living side of the experience by the very nature of being on holiday.

Basic statistics and economic analysis of the two regions would show that your, 'gut feeling' about there not being much of a difference doesn't hold water unfortunately, Rob. Can you also not see much of a difference between the relative wealth of somewhere like London compared with the relative poverty of somewhere like Glasgow? The difference is striking in both cases.

How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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