Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings

JRant · 25-02-2021 12:04PM

Boggles wrote: »

The Deputy Chief Medical Officer of the UK said the exact same thing in a wide ranging interview with Sky News yesterday.

We can't foretell anything until the data comes through, also the UK have been largely using a different vaccine with a different vaccination program.

How you have decided what NPHET said in a letter is a lie is utterly bizarre.

The data from Israel is even better if we want to compare like with like. Ultimately we are going to end up with about 20% AZ and the rest mRNA (not sure of the J&J numbers yet) so we can absolutely look to bother the UK and Israel for data points to help make decisions. I don't know why we wouldn't and haven't seen anything to suggest we won't but the data will be in come April/May/June.

castletownman · 25-02-2021 12:09PM

Maybe it was mentioned on this thread earlier, but there's a video doing the rounds of a Traveller funeral in Limerick yesterday (I checked rip.ie to validate it and it is genuine).

Definitely far more there than the regulation number, and of course they were all crowded together shoulder to shoulder with no mask in sight. They were even a couple of them singing, which is a taboo according to NPHET as well.

I wonder was there, or will there be, fixed penalty charges handed out for not complying with the rules? I'd say its easier, and crucially less discriminatory, to arrest a salon owner and her client though.

BoatMad · 25-02-2021 12:09PM

Boggles wrote: »

The Deputy Chief Medical Officer of the UK said the exact same thing in a wide ranging interview with Sky News yesterday.

We can't foretell anything until the data comes through, also the UK have been largely using a different vaccine with a different vaccination program.

How you have decided what NPHET said in a letter is a lie is utterly bizarre.

It’s a straight lie.

The vaccines the U.K. are using are exactly the ones we are using

The U.K. must proceed slowly , as they are out in front. The recon team always are more cautious then the mass of army following behind

Hence we have a 3 month ahead in time “ recon “ ability by simply seeing what happens as the U.K. slowly releases its restrictions

Hence we can therefore act much much quicker once we reach the same level of vaccine deployment

Last time I looked Irish physiology isn’t different to the U.K. population

We already rely on trials and data from other countries to approve the vaccine. We therefore can also “ rely” on other countries to provide a clear roadmap of what happens after vaccine distribution

Or is this more Irish exceptionalism at work , I seriously think some people never want this to end.

Boggles · 25-02-2021 12:11PM

JRant wrote: »

The data from Israel is even better if we want to compare like with like. Ultimately we are going to end up with about 20% AZ and the rest mRNA (not sure of the J&J numbers yet) so we can absolutely look to bother the UK and Israel for data points to help make decisions. I don't know why we wouldn't and haven't seen anything to suggest we won't but the data will be in come April/May/June.

Indeed, but NPHET in a letter to health Minister saying they can't be sure of the vaccination in the future is not a lie.

Unless the Deputy Chief Medical Officer in the UK was lying when he said the exact same thing.

KrustyUCC · 25-02-2021 12:11PM

RGS wrote: »

MM telling his FF party 5km MAY move to 10Km is again another example of the poor communication of the government. He knew it would get leaked.

If MM thinks this kite flying will assuage peoples anger he is mistaken.

Funny enough some change can be enough for a little while

Leo bought an extra two weeks last May where the only change was 2km to 5km and over 70s being allowed out for exercise even though that was already allowed just advised against

Then again last May people hadn't a year worth of restrictions already

BoatMad · 25-02-2021 12:13PM

Boggles wrote: »

Indeed, but NPHET in a letter to health Minister saying they can't be sure of the vaccination in the future is not a lie.

Unless the Deputy Chief Medical Officer in the UK was lying when he said the exact same thing.

Again you are not allowing for the difference in time

The U.K. is out in front , hence it must be cautious

We are well behind , the “recon “ will have been done by the time we walk the same path

We don’t need to as cautious. We can benefit from the uK recon team clearing the path

There is zero evidence our vaccine deployment will result in materially different levels of protection

We already know the efficacy has held up , we now know transmission is being suppressed by the vaccine

Boggles · 25-02-2021 12:15PM

BoatMad wrote: »

It’s a straight lie.

So NPHET said they can't tell the future right now as did the Deputy Chief Medical Officer of the UK.

And you have decided that is lies.

Fair enough.

Boggles · 25-02-2021 12:16PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Again you are not allowing for the difference in time

The U.K. is out in front , hence it must be cautious

We are well behind , the “recon “ will have been done by the time we walk the same path

We don’t need to as cautious. We can benefit from the uK recon team clearing the path

Neither can tell the future right now.

Neither are telling lies.

Both are being cautious, science has to be based on data not ranting and raving from people online who think they know more.

BoatMad · 25-02-2021 12:18PM

castletownman wrote: »

Maybe it was mentioned on this thread earlier, but there's a video doing the rounds of a Traveller funeral in Limerick yesterday (I checked rip.ie to validate it and it is genuine).

Definitely far more there than the regulation number, and of course they were all crowded together shoulder to shoulder with no mask in sight. They were even a couple of them singing, which is a taboo according to NPHET as well.

I wonder was there, or will there be, fixed penalty charges handed out for not complying with the rules? I'd say its easier, and crucially less discriminatory, to arrest a salon owner and her client though.

Society punishes the people easiest to punish , that’s the golden rule.

JRant · 25-02-2021 12:19PM

everlast75 wrote: »

Yes.

The balance here of course is about keeping people safe from covid and the need for the economy to keep going and to minimise the effects of solitude.

That's not in dispute.

But to refer to a "police state" in the abstract and not to acknowledge that there is a global pandemic from which hundreds of thousands of people have died from covid which is in our country is selective at best and purposefully hyperbolic at worst.

Can't both be true though?

I think everyone is aware there is a pandemic. The question is has our response been proportional?

The large proportion of the deaths are from nursing homes. How much impact does a 5km limit on travel affect them?

I have an issue with restrictions being brought in and left in place for long periods of time when they aren't backed up by any quantifiable metric or science for that matter.

Travel restrictions only work if there is a top class test and trace system in place and we don't have that. The entire State is treated exactly the same regardless of incidence rates in each county, so what's the point?

Construction closed, why?
Well Donnelly was on about lads going playing golf or some such guff recently so we've no idea why that's closed.

Sports, particularly outdoor ones, are all shut down, why?
It's acknowledged that outdoor transmission is extremely unlikely yet we have children and adults all couped up when they could be out getting exercise and enjoying themselves.

One last point and it's an important one. We can't keep people safe, we can only encourage safer behavior and practices. Some people like to jump off very tall buildings with a piece of material strapped to their backs and they may consider it safe. Others would baulk at the idea of climbing a 6foot ladder. "Safe" is a subjective term and requires a risk analysis to be carried out no matter what you are doing. In fact we have this inbuilt as humans some just view that risk differently than others.

So to say we are keeping people safe from COVID completely ignored a wide range of issues that we are ignoring in it's favour. Sure some people may feel safer from COVID with severe restrictions in place but others are being actively pushed to a more harmful state by taking away their ability to pay their bills or keep their business afloat. The question then becomes a balancing act and is nowhere near as simple as just saying we keep people safe from COVID.

BoatMad · 25-02-2021 12:22PM

Boggles wrote: »

Neither can tell the future right now.

Neither are telling lies.

Both are being cautious, science has to be based on data not ranting and raving from people online who think they know more.

Wrong again you assume their experience will be different to ours. We know this isn’t true. Infection has been consistent

The U.K. must be cautious as it’s ahead in time

We do not need to be as cautious as a result

It’s exactly why you have vaccine trials ahead in time to mass deployment. It gives you “ advance recon “ of what will likely happen. As a result you can then proceed much faster on normal deployment

Hence we can treat the U.K. exit as a “ trial “. Once we see it’s outcome we can deploy much faster , ie cast off restrictions.

We do NOT have to ape the U.K. , that’s why NOHET is lying.

You quoting me science is nonsense this is just logic, and exactly, we use U.K. data to inform us and hence can move faster when we have that data. We don’t have to recon the same path ourselves.

normanoffside · 25-02-2021 12:23PM

With the weather improving it's nice to see the Takeaway pints are coming back.
It's also nice of the Independent to give some places a bit of free advertising

https://twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/1364866484065996801

Graham · 25-02-2021 12:25PM

BoatMad wrote: »

The vaccines the U.K. are using are exactly the ones we are using

The U.K. must proceed slowly , as they are out in front. The recon team always are more cautious then the mass of army following behind

Hence we have a 3 month ahead in time “ recon “ ability by simply seeing what happens as the U.K. slowly releases its restrictions

Hence we can therefore act much much quicker once we reach the same level of vaccine deployment

Last time I looked Irish physiology isn’t different to the U.K. population

We already rely on trials and data from other countries to approve the vaccine. We therefore can also “ rely” on other countries to provide a clear roadmap of what happens after vaccine distribution

I'd agree with that with a couple of caveats.

We are going to be moving at a slightly slower pace thank the UK purely as a result of limited vaccine supply.

If a vaccine resistant variant appears, all bets are off. I don't think (hope) there's any indication that's a major likelihood.

JRant · 25-02-2021 12:25PM

Boggles wrote: »

Indeed, but NPHET in a letter to health Minister saying they can't be sure of the vaccination in the future is not a lie.

Unless the Deputy Chief Medical Officer in the UK was lying when he said the exact same thing.

I would argue that the letter should have made no reference to the future and just concentrated on what they actually know about the vaccines now. Right now, based on clinical data, it is shown that the vaccines work. Until data becomes available to say otherwise that should be their only position.

Boggles · 25-02-2021 12:26PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Wrong again you assume their experience will be different to ours. We know this isn’t true. Infection has been consistent

I am not assuming anything, you are.

The point remains NPHET stating right now they can't tell the future is not a lie.

FintanMcluskey · 25-02-2021 12:26PM

Graham wrote: »

If a vaccine resistant variant appears, all bets are off. I don't think (hope) there's any indication that's a major likelihood.

If a vaccine resistant variant appears all restrictions are off

I’m still baffled that people would be content to see out their lives in a state of house arrest

Boggles · 25-02-2021 12:28PM

JRant wrote: »

I would argue that the letter should have made no reference to the future and just concentrated on what they actually know about the vaccines now. Right now, based on clinical data, it is shown that the vaccines work. Until data becomes available to say otherwise that should be their only position.

To be honest I haven't seen the letter, I'm going off a users interruption of the letter.

Might actually be beneficial to link to the things people are outraged over.

BoatMad · 25-02-2021 12:28PM

JRant wrote: »

Can't both be true though?

I think everyone is aware there is a pandemic. The question is has our response been proportional?

The large proportion of the deaths are from nursing homes. How much impact does a 5km limit on travel affect them?

I have an issue with restrictions being brought in and left in place for long periods of time when they aren't backed up by any quantifiable metric or science for that matter.

Travel restrictions only work if there is a top class test and trace system in place and we don't have that. The entire State is treated exactly the same regardless of incidence rates in each county, so what's the point?

Construction closed, why?
Well Donnelly was on about lads going playing golf or some such guff recently so we've no idea why that's closed.

Sports, particularly outdoor ones, are all shut down, why?
It's acknowledged that outdoor transmission is extremely unlikely yet we have children and adults all couped up when they could be out getting exercise and enjoying themselves.

One last point and it's an important one. We can't keep people safe, we can only encourage safer behavior and practices. Some people like to jump off very tall buildings with a piece of material strapped to their backs and they may consider it safe. Others would baulk at the idea of climbing a 6foot ladder. "Safe" is a subjective term and requires a risk analysis to be carried out no matter what you are doing. In fact we have this inbuilt as humans some just view that risk differently than others.

So to say we are keeping people safe from COVID completely ignored a wide range of issues that we are ignoring in it's favour. Sure some people may feel safer from COVID with severe restrictions in place but others are being actively pushed to a more harmful state by taking away their ability to pay their bills or keep their business afloat. The question then becomes a balancing act and is nowhere near as simple as just saying we keep people safe from COVID.

The point is the Gov completely failed in track and trace , completely failed in surge testing , completely failed to do follow up quarantine testing

The HSE is utterly incompetent.

As a result we have abandoned any science ( as we have now little reliable data ) and we have a policy of stricter and stricter restrictions on a population who are clearly more willing to break them as they see they are unreasonable. This then leads to more and more punitive measures.

This is the very definition of a police state.

JRant · 25-02-2021 12:30PM

Boggles wrote: »

To be honest I haven't seen the letter, I'm going off a users interruption of the letter.

Might actually be beneficial to link to the things people are outraged over.

Fire it up so and we'll have a look.

Akesh · 25-02-2021 12:31PM

BoatMad wrote: »

I really think NPHET is determined to its rule by diktat permanently

It’s recent letter to Stephen Donnelly warns that we cannot be sure of the outcome of vaccinations

This is a lie , quite frankly. Because right next door we literally have millions of case studies three months ahead of us to study.

Hence we can easily foretell what will happen once we achieve certain levels of vaccination , because we can directly compare ourselves to the U.K. experience

This would allow to dramatically accelerate removal of restrictions by reference to watching as the U.K. will have slowly cast off their restrictions. We can move much much quicker as a result

We really need to Re inject political control or else remove the government and ask NPHET to stand for election

This is standard tactics in politics these days. Propose new laws that would be unpopular but declare they are for the 'greater good'. Demonise anyone who questions the new laws and refer to 'experts' in the area saying why 'x is needed'. Typically, the theory behind the proposed legislation is based on critical theory or some other nonsense that can not be described as scientific or logical.

We need direct democracy more than ever to stop successive governments making decisions and enacting laws which they do not have a mandate for.

Boggles · 25-02-2021 12:31PM

JRant wrote: »

Fire it up so and we'll have a look.

I don't know what letter he is talking about or if it even exists.

BoatMad · 25-02-2021 12:33PM

Boggles wrote: »

To be honest I haven't seen the letter, I'm going off a users interruption of the letter.

Might actually be beneficial to link to the things people are outraged over.

It’s on the Irish times

It’s another “ Leak” from NPHET. full of the usual gloom and doom and the promise of hell fire

How this advice between a quango and its Gov is being leaked to media illustrates clearly that NPHET believes it should set and decide public policy not the elected Gov. what’s sad is the elected Gov has completely bowed to NPHET and has accepted everything without question

Christmas is being used by NPHET to override all political considerations and the Gov is terrified into submission

It’s a travesty of a civil society m
It’s at a point now where the Irish council for civil liberties has directly criticised the process

Graham · 25-02-2021 12:35PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

If a vaccine resistant variant appears all restrictions are off

I’m still baffled that people would be content to see out their lives in a state of house arrest

No idea why you quoted my post Fintan.

There was certainly nothing in my post to suggest your hysterical "see out their lives in a state of house arrest".

BoatMad · 25-02-2021 12:35PM

Boggles wrote: »

I don't know what letter he is talking about or if it even exists.

Sure the first recourse of the uninformed is to suggest the informed are making it up

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/the-path-ahead-full-facts-from-nphet-paint-stark-picture-1.4494245?mode=amp

mohawk · 25-02-2021 12:48PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

If a vaccine resistant variant appears all restrictions are off

I’m still baffled that people would be content to see out their lives in a state of house arrest

I think most people aren’t. However we live in an era of virtue signaling and very black and white thinking. You either agree with me or you are a ‘granny killer’. The longer it goes on the more people are admitting they are struggling and their families are struggling.

Most of us are able to put the needs of others first for awhile (last March). However, as time goes on we find ourselves in a situation where putting the needs of others is detrimental to our own needs. The choice becomes do I stick to the restrictions like I should to protect society or will I let my child have a play date, or go to that nice quiet beach 10km away or pop in a visit my mother because I miss her. People have a social need and that must be met.

For the last month I can see many of my friends, family and acquaintances are breaking restrictions and are sharing this on social media. I am hearing of construction workers doing work ( how much of this income be declared for tax as they aren’t supposed to be working). People are getting in landscapers, painters etc. From my own circle of friends and family that they only get annoyed if those breaking restrictions are meeting in large groups.
I saw very little of breaking restrictions last March Or April and people certainly didn’t broadcast it.
On the other hand I have friends that are undergoing cancer treatment and are very cautious and see nobody. Even at Christmas they didn’t meet anyone which is fair enough they don’t want to leave their children without a parent.

Also as time goes on the numbers lose their impact as people get numb to it or just tune out altogether.

Boggles · 25-02-2021 12:55PM

BoatMad wrote: »

It’s on the Irish times

It’s another “ Leak” from NPHET. full of the usual gloom and doom and the promise of hell fire

How this advice between a quango and its Gov is being leaked to media illustrates clearly that NPHET believes it should set and decide public policy not the elected Gov. what’s sad is the elected Gov has completely bowed to NPHET and has accepted everything without question

You mean this letter which was published by the Department of Health and is freely available to all on gov.ie?

https://assets.gov.ie/124558/5ebbef54-d238-4fc5-8997-45f5b9fbe2d9.pdf

mohawk · 25-02-2021 12:57PM

BoatMad wrote: »

The point is the Gov completely failed in track and trace , completely failed in surge testing , completely failed to do follow up quarantine testing

The HSE is utterly incompetent.

As a result we have abandoned any science ( as we have now little reliable data ) and we have a policy of stricter and stricter restrictions on a population who are clearly more willing to break them as they see they are unreasonable. This then leads to more and more punitive measures.

The track and trace makes me angry to be honest. It surely would of been cheaper to implement a robust tracing system that tracks back to where people picked the infection up instead of a lockdown policy. Going back two days with a virus that can take 5-14 days for patient to become symptomatic means that we set ourselves up for failure. Last summer cases were low enough to clamp down of the virus if they had a functional test and trace in place.

They didn’t do there part so will blame the public. It works to an extent as we can see from posts here on boards some people think that cases only rise when people break restrictions.

Analogs daughter · 25-02-2021 01:30PM

Front page headline of Irish Independent today used the word "sinister" when describing businesses attempting to reopen in Tralee, aided by "subversive" far right groups.

A more fitting headline would be,

"Businesses on the brink of ruin attempt to salvage their livelihoods."

Meanwhile absolutely nothing about the ISAG blatantly sowing fear amonsgst the population. The media coverage around Covid is becoming more disgraceful by the day.

Silentcorner · 25-02-2021 01:35PM

mohawk wrote: »

Also as time goes on the numbers lose their impact as people get numb to it or just tune out altogether.

I agree with everything you say, I just wish to add that the numbers are actually very encouraging....but you have to ignore the hysteria that surrounds them on a daily basis.

If you don't believe that the severe lockdowns are impacting on case numbers, which I do, the numbers are giving us great data that should be of huge encouragement given the fear we all had at the start of this.

I do think as it was a new virus we needed a level of restrictions, I think we went way too far with them driven by Nphet led by a man not fit for his position in my view.

What is happening is that people are now becoming numb to the fear and hysteria as it is not relating to their own experience...this was always going to happen, that will accelerate in the coming weeks as numbers decline and the weather improves.

normanoffside · 25-02-2021 01:35PM

This article is worth a read.

https://gript.ie/zeroleaks-on-their-media-friends-matt-cooper-tries-to-look-impartial/

Some screenshots for the lazy.

The 'safe' Christmas dinner mock up with Granny at the window was McConkey's idea

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Comments

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings