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Does Sport Ireland support shooting sports, and if so, how?

  • 14-02-2021 03:15AM
    #1
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    Does anyone know of any financial aid, or other supports, that have been given by Sports Ireland, to our shooting sports?

    I'm curious to know if our hard earned taxes, are benefiting or sporting interests, and if so, to what extent.

    Thanks

    Thanks,

    G.



Comments

  • #2
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,961 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Sport Ireland supports Olympic sports.
    Which I presume covers shooting disciplines.

    https://www.sportireland.ie/news/irish-clay-pigeon-shooting-association


    However, support is likely proportional to participation. So unlike to receive the same as athletics for example.


  • #3
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Mellor wrote: »
    Sport Ireland supports Olympic sports.
    Which I presume covers shooting disciplines.

    https://www.sportireland.ie/news/irish-clay-pigeon-shooting-association


    However, support is likely proportional to participation. So unlike to receive the same as athletics for example.

    Hi,

    Thanks for the reply, I suspect as much (or as little, if we're talking about support, for shooting sports).

    I'm hoping to gather a bit more detail, and then see if there are ways that we can push for more support, favourable publicity etc.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #4
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    The Irish sports council, predecessor to Sports Ireland, said to deal with the all the shooting groups individually would be a nightmare so one group was established to accept applications from the various shooting bodies and then put forward a single application which would be divvied up if successful.

    However with the infighting among the groups, the irregularities in the books (accounting irregularities), coupled with one group going around the SSAI and applying on their own the Irish sports council said enough was enough and an audit was called for. The audit showed up more problems so the process was stalled and has been ever since.
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  • #5
    badaj0z
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭badaj0z


    In other words, the usual Irish group political infighting was to the detriment of the entire sport concerned. We have lost €25k a year as a result. A quarter of a million Euro, over the last 10 years would have helped the sport develop. Wouldn't it? The 2019 NASRPC committee was in the process of getting things ready to go back to the Sports Council, when the same contagion from outside the committee stopped progress. Will we ever learn?


  • #6
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Hi Lads,

    Is that really going on 10 years, without resolution?

    ... FFS, that's disgraceful, and yet another example of where we've proven to be our own worst enemies.

    Even if they all agreed to disagree, let them put on a claim, then share the grant aid etc.

    Mind you, that said, it's rediculous that there needs to be one body, to represent more than one sport - so that needs to be challenged with the council, too. Rifle, Pistol and Clay Shooters, are all different.

    Thanks,

    G.



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  • #7
    GooseB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 201 ✭✭GooseB


    I don't know if it's ridiculous for shooting to have one NGB representing it with Sports Ireland - shooting is tiny in the overall scheme of things and to have it's voice heard it makes sense to me for 1 body to have as much support under it as possible.

    Athletics Ireland for example - there isn't a separate body for long jumpers, another NGB for hurdlers and yet another for middle distance.

    Imagine you were clueless on shooting, which most people are. Now you have to wrap your head around 2 groups both shooting .22lr rifles, both at 50m, more or less the same targets too but both saying they are different. Now you or I may know the difference between ISSF style shooting under Target Shooting Ireland and Sporting Rifle under NASRPC but that is very hard to deal with as a lay person. Far easier to just give a single NGB for shooting funding and let them divide out their own allocations to the sub groups. Yes, pistols and shotguns appear easier to distinguish but at the end of the day they're guns where you pull the trigger and they go bang.


  • #8
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    garrettod wrote: »
    Mind you, that said, it's rediculous that there needs to be one body, to represent more than one sport - so that needs to be challenged with the council, too. Rifle, Pistol and Clay Shooters, are all different.
    As was said above its too complicated and the Sports Council don't deal with individual associations/groups within an umbrella sport.

    The idea of the one group is they are made up of representatives from all the shooting bodies and each put in their own claim individually, but the actual grant being sought is applied for as a single grant and not 10, 15 or 20 smaller ones.

    Makes perfect sense for the Sports council.
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  • #9
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,961 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    garrettod wrote: »
    Mind you, that said, it's rediculous that there needs to be one body, to represent more than one sport - so that needs to be challenged with the council, too. Rifle, Pistol and Clay Shooters, are all different.

    As the guys said above. That's really not ridiculous at all.
    From an sporting/olympic perspective, they are three disciplines within the same sport. The ISSF is the governing body for all three disciplines at Olympic level.

    The athletics example is perfect really.


  • #10
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭garrettod


    While I get what the three of you are saying, I see it as rediculous, because it basically allows one group to prevent all of the others, from getting any support. That's just wrong, in my view.

    Clearly, it suits Sports Ireland's agenda, of having less work to do, and conveniently being able to avoid having to give the shooting community anything...its essentially one less mouth to feed.

    However, every one of us are equal, so one group of people should not be empowered to hold others to ransom etc.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #11
    Limerick Sovereigns
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 95 ✭✭Limerick Sovereigns


    An alternative source of funding for shooting clubs is the Sports Capital Grants scheme. They will accept applications from clubs that are not involved in hunting.

    Clubs that own their own grounds can apply for grants towards buildings or equipment of up to €150,000 in each round of funding (usually every 3 years). Clubs that rent their grounds can only apply for grants towards portable equipment to a maximum of €50,000 per round.

    The club must show that they can fund at least 5% of the cost of the project or equipment themselves. Each application is given a score based on 6 criteria. The 25% of projects with the lowest scores in each county are eliminated. The remaining projects share the funding for that county (which is allocated based on population) between them, based on the score achieved by each project.

    GAA, Soccer, Hockey etc all do well. However, less obvious beneficiaries are golf clubs which have been huge winners from this over the years. I'm not sure if shooting clubs are tuned into this or not but it should be a no-brainer really.

    The closing date for new clubs to register for the current round was, coincidently, today at 5pm. If a club is already registered on the OSCAR system from previous rounds then they have until 5am on Monday 1st March to upload the details of the project or equipment that they wish to apply for a grant.


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  • #12
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    garrettod wrote: »
    While I get what the three of you are saying, I see it as rediculous, because it basically allows one group to prevent all of the others, from getting any support. That's just wrong, in my view.
    However, every one of us are equal, so one group of people should not be empowered to hold others to ransom etc.
    The above two parts of your post are the same thing so i'll address them together.

    Its not one group holding the others to "ransom". First and foremost this is Sports Ireland's decision (or rather was the decision of the Irish sports council).

    Secondly a bit of background. The SSAI was a replacement for the NRPAI and the SSAI was then replaced by FISA. Its not a single shooting body controlling all aspects of shooting but rather its an amalgamation of representatives from all shooting groups with iirc two reps from each body. The chair of the FISA was to go a new group every 6 months* so each group were not only represented but had control of the group. The NRAI had "first watch" and then handed the reigns to the NASRPC and that is where it stalled. I say stalled because its technically still in existence just stuck in someone's closet or drawer.
    garrettod wrote:
    Clearly, it suits Sports Ireland's agenda, of having less work to do, and conveniently being able to avoid having to give the shooting community anything...its essentially one less mouth to feed.
    badaj0z wrote: »
    In other words, the usual Irish group political infighting was to the detriment of the entire sport concerned. We have lost €25k a year as a result. ?
    Again these two are about the same topic so i'll answer together.


    It might have suited the agenda of the Irish Sports Council/Sports Ireland (ISC/SI) in terms of a single point of contact to deal with, but the blame does not fall on the ISC/SI but at the feet of the shooting bodies themselves or more accurately a single group coupled with a few individuals. Their actions led to the loss of any possible funding.

    A full explanation is given in this article and this thread is only one of a number about the issue over the years.


    * - Could be wrong on the time frame the chair is held.
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  • #13
    Mellor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,961 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    garrettod wrote: »
    While I get what the three of you are saying, I see it as rediculous, because it basically allows one group to prevent all of the others, from getting any support. That's just wrong, in my view.
    You are either misunderstanding, or misrepresenting. Hopefully the former.

    There are three groups. Sports Ireland didn't say "we only want to deal with one of you, you can have all the money, and up to you to sort the others out".

    They said, "we want to deal with a single NGO, who will look after all of you"
    That's complete reasonable and doesn't allow any group to block the other two. This is literally how most multi-disciplined sports are organised.
    However, every one of us are equal, so one group of people should not be empowered to hold others to ransom etc.
    No group was given that power by Sports Ireland.


    If the three groups were unable to form an NGO. That's not Sports Ireland's fault.


  • #14
    GooseB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 201 ✭✭GooseB


    The links posted above by Cass are pretty heavy going and it's not just wrapping your head around all the acronyms either! As probably a newer shooter (~2 yrs) this kind of stuff isn't good to read about or for the appearance of the sport in general.

    However that was in 2017 - what are people's thoughts on the possibility of a clean sheet reset, a start over? (Because I haven't a clue) If there are new committees in place in the various bodies, do people here think that there is an appetite for them to put forward a couple of committee members each to sit on the board of a restarted FISA? (hope I chose the correct acronym?) From these people a new chairperson and the other two posts(?) are elected for their 6/12 month stint at the helm.

    They then approach Sport Ireland, say that the body has been in disarray for a number of years to the point of not existence or whatever and just be totally open and ask how to clear the decks and ask Sport Ireland for a defined list of things to do to get back into contention for funding?

    Obviously the new FISA (again I hope that's the correct term) is made up of people who represent everybody so no discipline of shooting that qualifies for the funding is left out - if that means using the same bodies as before plus any other bodies that may not have been in the past but could have been - then so be it.

    That seems a sensible approach to me or at least it's getting there. Do people agree? Or at least do a majority agree? What barriers currently exist for this not to happen? The only ones I can think of is old infighting and bad blood - In my opinion this is not a good enough reason to be honest. I think the past needs to be put to bed from what I can read of it - the sport needs to move on or it'll shrink into oblivion eventually.


  • #15
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    GooseB wrote: »
    However that was in 2017 -
    Excuse me if this comes across as blunt or nasty, its not intended toward you, but i hate that "its in the past" line. I've said so many times before.

    This mess was created by the same group that caused other messes and the line trotted out each time they done something was "it's in the past". The same people, in charge of the same group, doing the same things and we're meant to keep ignoring it simply because "X" amount of time has passed!
    what are people's thoughts on the possibility of a clean sheet reset, a start over?
    and just be totally open and ask how to clear the decks and ask Sport Ireland for a defined list of things to do to get back into contention for funding?
    Not going to happen.

    You're not dealing with a charity, you're dealing with a state body which means administration, bureaucracy, and people who live for paperwork and things being done their way/the right way. IOW professionals, not simply another shooting body.
    What barriers currently exist for this not to happen?
    FISA is still, technically, in existence and could start up in the morning if the group that was last chairing it decided to actually hold a meeting. Once that is done the issue surrounding the accounts still needs to be addressed and until those responsible own up to it, sports Ireland won't touch it no more than the Irish Sports Council would.

    In short the "apologetic kid" approach won't work.
    The only ones I can think of is old infighting and bad blood
    Nope.

    Dishonesty, no meetings held by the chair, and unbalanced books is the cause. All the work of one group (at the time)
    - In my opinion this is not a good enough reason to be honest. I think the past needs to be put to bed from what I can read of it - the sport needs to move on or it'll shrink into oblivion eventually.
    Its not up to everyone else, only those with the Chairmanship of the FISA can make any decisions on this.
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  • #16
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    By the way, just for the record.

    I'm not trying to drag up old history. I haven't the stomach nor inclination to start that tired old discussion all over again. Its been done to death. My only reason for mentioning it was because of the topic of the thread and the question as to how to proceed.

    I'd happily let sleeping dogs be and move forward but as said above that is the FISAs responsibility not Sports Ireland. So we need to start with our own, get the books in order, restart meetings and then plan to approach Sports Ireland.
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  • #17
    badaj0z
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭badaj0z


    Cass wrote: »
    this article and this thread is only one of a number about the issue over the years.


    .

    I did enjoy reading over those threads again Cass.


  • #18
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 28,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    If you read that thread again you'd have seen the the Mod Warning towards the end of that thread where i reminded you of the forum charter on personal attacks.

    If you want to take personal shots at someone, Facebook/Twitter, etc. is that way
    >

    Otherwise abide by the forum rules.
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  • #19
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,488 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Cass wrote: »
    .... I'd happily let sleeping dogs be and move forward but as said above that is the FISAs responsibility not Sports Ireland. So we need to start with our own, get the books in order, restart meetings and then plan to approach Sports Ireland.

    No doubt you'll appreciate that I, and perhaps quite a few others reading this thread, weren't involved in what's gone on in times past, and probably didn't even know about much of it, so thanks for the background.

    As it appears, financial records are not going to be brought up to date, so, by default, doesn't that mean that we're at a road block?

    By extension, I see that as everyone being punished / prohibited from availing of potential grants, for a problem that has been caused by a small minority. That's not right, and can't just be left that way indefinitely. So, what are the potential options :

    * go and ask the individuals who were involved, to put matters right?

    * go and ask Sport Ireland to accept the circumstances, let a new representative body then proceed to make a submission for future funding ?

    * assuming neither of the above work out, take legal action against the relevant parties, for failing in their obligations.

    Any other possibilities?

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #20
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,009 ✭✭✭Feisar


    IMHO, any money needs to go into the youth. Ranges about the country, lock of young people learning to shoot. Wouldn't cost a lot to buy up a heap of CZ 452 Lux's and run something akin to Appleseed in the states. Sad to go onto Sport Ireland Outdoors section and see nothing about shooting.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #21
    badaj0z
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭badaj0z


    The pony club were part of the SSAI, before it was folded, and introduced many young people to shooting as part of the Modern Pentathlon.


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