Working From Home Megathread

Antares35 · 13-02-2021 06:41PM

stefanovich wrote: »

How would you define a real company? Ones that ignore regulations and laws?

There's a difference between ignoring the GDPR and treating your employees like imbeciles that can't be trusted.

Mrs OBumble · 13-02-2021 07:12PM

Some of the attitudes shown in this thread (utter contempt for people who have different opinions, or who express concerns that you don't share) - are why I would not like to work for any company that's 100% WFH: way too easy to ignore dignity-at-work policies when your colleagues are no more than disembodied voices on the end a phone call.

I heard an interesting WFT story this week: a lad started a new job, on a 10-month maternity leave contract. Pre-employment discussion included that they job if WFH for now, which was fine. But when he started , it transpired that the broadband in his rural-ish rented accommodation isn't up to the data volumes required for the job. He's tried to get better broadband installed, but satellite is the only option in the area and the landlord won't agree to an installation (may be a planning issue, he's not sure). Effectively if he wants to keep the job, he's been told that he has to move house. In the middle of level-5 lockdown. Despite the employer having virtually empty offices that he could simply go and use without seeing anyone else.

Mrs OBumble · 13-02-2021 07:14PM

Bigfatmichael wrote: »

As most companies Do. If you can't trust your employees every company may as well close its doors.

The nonsense in this thread is unreal.

Have you ever worked in HR, or for a union?

Firings may be rare enough in small companies, but once the workforce starts to number in the thousands, you can practically guarantee that there will be a few fired each year, usually for untrustworthy behaviour. And that's with in-office observation and controls in place.

13-02-2021 07:15PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Some of the attitudes shown in this thread (utter contempt for people who have different opinions, or who express concerns that you don't share) - are why I would not like to work for any company that's 100% WFH: way too easy to ignore dignity-at-work policies when your colleagues are no more than disembodied voices on the end a phone call.

I heard an interesting WFT story this week: a lad started a new job, on a 10-month maternity leave contract. Pre-employment discussion included that they job if WFH for now, which was fine. But when he started , it transpired that the broadband in his rural-ish rented accommodation isn't up to the data volumes required for the job. He's tried to get better broadband installed, but satellite is the only option in the area and the landlord won't agree to an installation (may be a planning issue, he's not sure). Effectively if he wants to keep the job, he's been told that he has to move house. In the middle of level-5 lockdown. Despite the employer having virtually empty offices that he could simply go and use without seeing anyone else.

Interesting story.

kippy · 13-02-2021 07:21PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Some of the attitudes shown in this thread (utter contempt for people who have different opinions, or who express concerns that you don't share) - are why I would not like to work for any company that's 100% WFH: way too easy to ignore dignity-at-work policies when your colleagues are no more than disembodied voices on the end a phone call.

I heard an interesting WFT story this week: a lad started a new job, on a 10-month maternity leave contract. Pre-employment discussion included that they job if WFH for now, which was fine. But when he started , it transpired that the broadband in his rural-ish rented accommodation isn't up to the data volumes required for the job. He's tried to get better broadband installed, but satellite is the only option in the area and the landlord won't agree to an installation (may be a planning issue, he's not sure). Effectively if he wants to keep the job, he's been told that he has to move house. In the middle of level-5 lockdown. Despite the employer having virtually empty offices that he could simply go and use without seeing anyone else.

People often make accomodation and other life decisions based on their jobs.
Unfortunately broadband is a major blocker of WFH and indeed economic activity in general, still in many parts of the country.
I dunno, I'd be fairly harsh on this. If the guy wants to keep the job, do what is required (I think moving accomodation is allowed), if moving isn't feasible for one reason or another, look at the other options available.

There's plenty of non WFH options available to those that aren't into WFH or working for companies that in normal times are 100 percent WFH. Like anything people are free to make up their minds, weighing up the pros and cons of all options on the table.
I wouldn't write off working for an entire sector or growing sector because of something you've seen/read on boards.ie to be completely frank.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 13-02-2021 08:31PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Some of the attitudes shown in this thread (utter contempt for people who have different opinions, or who express concerns that you don't share) - are why I would not like to work for any company that's 100% WFH: way too easy to ignore dignity-at-work policies when your colleagues are no more than disembodied voices on the end a phone call.

I heard an interesting WFT story this week: a lad started a new job, on a 10-month maternity leave contract. Pre-employment discussion included that they job if WFH for now, which was fine. But when he started , it transpired that the broadband in his rural-ish rented accommodation isn't up to the data volumes required for the job. He's tried to get better broadband installed, but satellite is the only option in the area and the landlord won't agree to an installation (may be a planning issue, he's not sure). Effectively if he wants to keep the job, he's been told that he has to move house. In the middle of level-5 lockdown. Despite the employer having virtually empty offices that he could simply go and use without seeing anyone else.

I knew someone who had to leave a job because the public transport from where he lived was totally unreliable and he was frequently late. Employers not a bit sympathetic. Be in work on time or else
He had a choice of moving house or changing jobs. He changed jobs.

Wouldn't have had to if he could have worked from home.

13-02-2021 08:46PM

Mr.S wrote: »

That's actually fairly common.

Employer should make the office available to the employee if they cannot work from home, which is what most employers have done since lockdown 1.

I'm sure being told you would be fired because you can't get internet (which you probably have to pay for yourself) would be a clean cut unfair dismissal case. Unless it was something the employee agreed to and stated in the contract - which is still **** for them, but should have checked their connection etc.

Easiest option would be to move tbh, which is perfectly possible during Level 5.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

... a lad started a new job, on a 10-month maternity leave contract. Pre-employment discussion included that they job if WFH for now, which was fine.

Why would it be unfair dismissal?

The employer offered him a 10 month contract on the basis that the role was a remote one for now, which presumably he accepted.

Why should the problem with his broadband provider now become his employer's problem to resolve? And why should they now have to go against government advice to accommodate him?

He has been given his options. Resolve the issue with his broadband or move. Moving is not forbidden in Level 5.

The employer is not at fault here. Not only that, they can let someone go within a probation period. End of story.

Man Vs ManUre · 13-02-2021 08:51PM

Salaries will be gradually reduced with these new casual ways of working. I already know of some companies that are looking to start charging their employees for providing this VDI technology to enable them to wfh.

AndrewJRenko · 13-02-2021 08:56PM

Mr.S wrote: »

That's actually fairly common.

Employer should make the office available to the employee if they cannot work from home, which is what most employers have done since lockdown 1.

I'm sure being told you would be fired because you can't get internet (which you probably have to pay for yourself) would be a clean cut unfair dismissal case. Unless it was something the employee agreed to and stated in the contract - which is still **** for them, but should have checked their connection etc.

Easiest option would be to move tbh, which is perfectly possible during Level 5.

No unfair dismissal protection for someone on a 10 month fixed term contract. They can dismiss him if they don't like the colour of his shirt.

AndrewJRenko · 13-02-2021 09:01PM

Thats me wrote: »

Hmm. OK. But some measures still can be taken:

1. Access to sensitive data audited, and operator requested for explanation whenever data accessed with no visible reason
2. Operator can be obliged to have camera turned on while accessing data. When camera off or camera lens detected (automatic detection is possible to implement nowadays) - screen can be blanked or locked immediately, in the case of camera detected - security alert sent to appropriate team.
3. Screen image can be watermarked to identify where the image leaked from (but this can be easily walked around)

On the other hand, since you are allowed to take your mobile with you into the office, you likely working with information which does not require strict measures.

So employees now have to expose their bedroom to surveillance by their line manager ? Have you any idea what a nightmare scenario this is for personal privacy?

If I have young kids running around my house, does my manager now get to watch or even record my kids?

13-02-2021 09:13PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So employees now have to expose their bedroom to surveillance by their line manager ? Have you any idea what a nightmare scenario this is for personal privacy?

If I have young kids running around my house, does my manager now get to watch or even record my kids?

Close the bedroom door while you're working.

Next problem?

Antares35 · 13-02-2021 09:14PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Close the bedroom door while you're working.

Next problem?

Lack of ventilation because of said closed door leads to chronic chest problems which the employer is then liable for. Employer duty to provide working environment with constantly refreshed air etc.

AndrewJRenko · 13-02-2021 09:18PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Close the bedroom door while you're working.

Next problem?

Have you met toddlers? Toddlers who don't have a spare adult supervising them, because the other adult is, you know, WFH.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-02-2021 09:26PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There are no controls within the computer that stop the user from holding their mobile phone in front of the screen and taking photos.

Having other people around in an open plan office is a major deterrent to this happening in an office.

Ah stop. If you really want to steal data at work using your phone camera, you could come in early or stay a little late.

Only poor managers do 'bedroom surveillance' or micro managing. The world has moved on...

My wife just got told yesterday that she can WFH until end of 2021 if she wants. That now makes 2 of us. Delighted to be honest. We both have a good routine going. I will probably arrange for 1-2 days a week in the office from Sept myself. Then again I may not.

13-02-2021 09:27PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Have you met toddlers? Toddlers who don't have a spare adult supervising them, because the other adult is, you know, WFH.

You're a civil servant Andrew.

Staggered working hours are allowed for those juggling childcare responsibilities.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-02-2021 09:29PM

Antares35 wrote: »

Lack of ventilation because of said closed door leads to chronic chest problems which the employer is then liable for. Employer duty to provide working environment with constantly refreshed air etc.

Huh? A bedroom should have a vent or a MHRV system for modern homes. There is also the windows. I am thrilled to be away from the office air conditioning system.

Antares35 · 13-02-2021 09:35PM

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Huh? A bedroom should have a vent or a MHRV system for modern homes. There is also the windows. I am thrilled to be away from the office air conditioning system.

I was being sarcastic

I too am delighted to be away from the office environment. I'm more productive than ever.

Antares35 · 13-02-2021 09:35PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Have you met toddlers? Toddlers who don't have a spare adult supervising them, because the other adult is, you know, WFH.

Your childcare arrangements are not your employer's concern or responsibility.

Cluedo Monopoly · 13-02-2021 09:43PM

Antares35 wrote: »

I was being sarcastic I too am delighted to be away from the office environment. I'm more productive than ever.

Oops sorry, I didn't detect the sarcasm

WFH is the future and the future is bright. I like that I can get a job in any company even if they don't have an office in Galway.

Antares35 · 13-02-2021 10:08PM

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Oops sorry, I didn't detect the sarcasm

WFH is the future and the future is bright. I like that I can get a job in any company even if they don't have an office in Galway.

Exactly, and we aren't all going to be tied to paying out huge money for tiny houses in cities/ on commuter belts so we can engage in the five day rat run

Mrs OBumble · 13-02-2021 10:09PM

Mr.S wrote: »

Ya learn something new every day, I thought you are protected regardless of length.

Nope. Pretty much no protection in the first 12 months.

As it happens, I know there two others in the company who are there for 10+ years, and who have equally bad broadband. They're getting away with it 'cos they use different applications. But one could be asked to do the job which this lad was doing - and if so will have the same problem. This woman owns her house, and family reasons mean that moving would be a non-runner.

I'll be watching developments with interest!

kippy · 13-02-2021 10:16PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So employees now have to expose their bedroom to surveillance by their line manager ? Have you any idea what a nightmare scenario this is for personal privacy?

If I have young kids running around my house, does my manager now get to watch or even record my kids?

Which way do you want it? You have vastly contradictory mindsets depending on the end result. All I see is a fairly awkward set.
You were looking for the employer to pay you rent earlier. What would you think this legal arrangement with allow them to do with the space they are renting from you?

kippy · 13-02-2021 10:27PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Nope. Pretty much no protection in the first 12 months.

As it happens, I know there two others in the company who are there for 10+ years, and who have equally bad broadband. They're getting away with it 'cos they use different applications. But one could be asked to do the job which this lad was doing - and if so will have the same problem. This woman owns her house, and family reasons mean that moving would be a non-runner.

I'll be watching developments with interest!

That's a totally different set of circumstances then.
Much more difficult for the employer to change the boundaries.
But again....as an individual I would be trying to control the controllables here. Surely the individual s would be best suited to investigating BB options for themselves and if nothing is feasible chewing the ear of the Local Authority or politician to get the NBS to them ASAP.

AndrewJRenko · 13-02-2021 10:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You're a civil servant Andrew.

Staggered working hours are allowed for those juggling childcare responsibilities.

Try juggling responsibilities as a single parent. Try juggling responsibilities when the other parent is working on the front line.

Antares35 wrote: »

Your childcare arrangements are not your employer's concern or responsibility.

They are absolutely the employer's concern if the employer wants to run a CCTV surveillance camera in my spare bedroom or my kitchen.

AndrewJRenko · 13-02-2021 10:34PM

kippy wrote: »

Which way do you want it? You have vastly contradictory mindsets depending on the end result. All I see is a fairly awkward set.
You were looking for the employer to pay you rent earlier. What would you think this legal arrangement with allow them to do with the space they are renting from you?

Personally, what I want is to get back to working in my office - a safe working environment that doesn't impinge on my family life.

I don't want my employer to pay me rent because I don't want to be working from home.

For those who do end up working from home, it is entirely reasonable for their employer to pay for the working space provided in those homes.

Antares35 · 13-02-2021 10:34PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They are absolutely the employer's concern if the employer wants to run a CCTV surveillance camera in my spare bedroom or my kitchen.

How?

Antares35 · 13-02-2021 10:36PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Personally, what I want is to get back to working in my office - a safe working environment that doesn't impinge on my family life.

I don't want my employer to pay me rent because I don't want to be working from home.

For those who do end up working from home, it is entirely reasonable for their employer to pay for the working space provided in those homes.

You just don't want to be at home, at least you've finally made your point.

namloc1980 · 13-02-2021 10:40PM

Andrew is just looking for a compo payout. That's all. He's mentioned compensation and being paid extra for working from home multiple times. Just looking for a few bob, nothing more.

13-02-2021 10:42PM

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Try juggling responsibilities as a single parent. Try juggling responsibilities when the other parent is working on the front line.

Moving the goalposts again? Your earlier post was about how difficult it was when the other parent was also WFH.

As a single parent (and I was one) it would be diffcult, sure - but not impossible. That's the beauty of staggered hours. You work when you can, and you do as much as you can. Especially during the current crisis.

There is a guy working in my section whose wife is working on the front line. One toddler, one school going. They've worked it out, and are managing fine.

Where there is a will there is a way, you just have no will to fine a way, Andrew. All you look for are obstacles.

AndrewJRenko · 13-02-2021 10:54PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Moving the goalposts again? Your earlier post was about how difficult it was when the other parent was also WFH.

As a single parent (and I was one) it would be diffcult, sure - but not impossible. That's the beauty of staggered hours. You work when you can, and you do as much as you can. Especially during the current crisis.

There is a guy working in my section whose wife is working on the front line. One toddler, one school going. They've worked it out, and are managing fine.

Where there is a will there is a way, you just have no will to fine a way, Andrew. All you look for are obstacles.

Does the guy in your section have his line manager monitoring him via the laptop camera, which is the context of these latest discussions?

Working From Home Megathread

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