'Alternative' doctor has turned my mum off Covid vaccine

oisinog · 11-02-2021 02:28PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

They haven't gone through years of safety testing.

Quite correct which is why I mentioned that the tests are not as widespread as they normally are.

But as I also mentioned that ant-vaxers will use this narrative to suit their goals which you have confirmed.

monkeybutter · 11-02-2021 02:30PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

I never mentioned 5G. Just proves you have nothing useful to add to the discussion.

if the glove fits wear it

11-02-2021 02:31PM

1123heavy wrote: »

I don't agree telling her she can't see you or the grandkids, especially if they're very young and you're of good health - she will actually convince you of being the brainwashed one considering how unlikely you're all to be affected by it.

You must not have irrational older people in your life.
Reason doesn't work in my experience and if you need to get them to do something which is to their benefit you coerce them in to doing it. It isn't elder abuse, it is giving them the care they need.

monkeybutter · 11-02-2021 02:32PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

They haven't gone through years of safety testing.

you can speed up the testing by throwing more resources at it that is what they did nothing rushed

Charles Babbage · 11-02-2021 02:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If your relationship is strong enough then tell her you will not be seeing her until she gets immunized and if there are grandchildren make it clear they will not be allowed visit either...cruel to be kind.

And make it clear that this is because she won't take reasonable precautions to protect herself as much as anything.

plodder · 11-02-2021 02:40PM

Chiropracters have traditionally been associated with the anti-vaccine movement. Now, maybe not all of them, but some are strongly against it, because it is built into their "training"/philosophy. And because they are somewhat accepted as medical practitioners, that makes it all the more dangerous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-vaccinationism_in_chiropractic

Encouraging her to talk to her GP seems like the best course of action.

Risteard81 · 11-02-2021 02:40PM

monkeybutter wrote: »

you can speed up the testing by throwing more resources at it that is what they did nothing rushed

You can't speed up the onset of long-term side effects.

monkeybutter · 11-02-2021 02:43PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

You can't speed up the onset of long-term side effects.

give us an example of such a side effect that they should be testing for and how many years of testing you would be happy with

OscarMIlde · 11-02-2021 02:52PM

Hunchback wrote: »

Okay,

I don't have too much time to type this because I am on my lunch break at work. But, as per the title to the thread, an alternative/homeopathic doctor has turned my mum agsainst the idea of getting vaccinated against the Covid 19 virus. She is 74 years old.

At the very least, he has confused her and now she does not know what to do.

I am both angry, and in shock, because I did not think that she would be susceptible to something that an anti-vaxxer would say to her.

She has been a client of this 'Dr' for decades. I have a brother who thinks that the guy is a quack and has said this to my mum on a number of occasions. I on the other hand think that at her age (74) she should be left to believe what she believes in and to do with her money as she sees fit. (He also sells his homeopathic remedies to his clients once he has seen them).

However, I think a line is crossed when these practitioners warn against things like cancer treatments, or in this case against Covid 19 vaccination.

He has told her that the vaccine messes with a person's genes. He has said that a lot of the reason why people succumbed to the Covid 19 virus is because they have previously taken vaccines which have weakened their resistance. In short, he is an anti vaxxer.

I am not sure how to talk to my mum because I am so frustrated. Obviously when she told me last night I was in shock and I told her that I couldn't believe she was even confused momentarily. I was a little bit angry at her (well frustrated as a better word) but I was really angry at the alternative Dr that she went to see.

I believe that the best way to be is 'don't tell them that they are stupid / don't ridicule their beliefs' when you are dealing with people who don't believe in the benefits of the vaccine, or are confused.

I guess I am here today to ask for advice on how to change her mind back to the way it was the day before yesterday. I suggested off the bat that she should go and talk to her regular GP, who can act as a counterpoint to the quack she saw yesterday. I also advised, or requested, that she talked to my other two brothers. The reason for this is that I don't think she should internalise her thought process, but as the stakes are so high, she really should discuss the issues with the people closest to her, and also discuss them with the doctor.

Incidentally, I wonder how many other people he has also convinced that the Covid 19 vaccine is potentially injurious to their health. I asked my mum who was he public about his views in relation to the Covid 19 vaccine. She said that he is. To which I said 'how many respected voices do you hear in the media coming out against the Covid 19 vaccine? All the science points to very high efficacy of the vaccine. People who tend to comment against it seemed to withdraw their remarks within days. There is no credible evidence to suggest that not taking the vaccine as a preferable approach'.

Anyway, interested to see if anybody has any views on this.

TLDR: I have an elderly mum who was convinced by a quack doctor not take the Covid vaccine and I don't know what to do.

I would just outline the basic facts. None of the covid 19 vaccines in any way alter a person's DNA. They contain information (whether mRNA or adenovirus) to make a small part of the covid 19 virus, allowing our body to make antibodies against covid 19.

So far, apart from people with severe allergies there have been very little side effects documented with these vaccines. Those described, chills, fevers, malaise etc are actually due to the body's own immune response, which shows they are making antibodies against covid 19. So far we also know that covid 19 can have very severe effects, including death, particularly in people of her age group. She needs to think about whether she thinks the risks of a vaccine outweigh the risks of catching covid 19.

Perhaps ask her to watch the recent RTE investigates series about covid 19 or the documentary set in St. James's Hospital, if she doesn't think covid 19 is dangerous. Try not to get emotional (which is hard), but let her know you are upset as you care about her, and you don't want her to make a decision she will regret. Don't hector to much. Often people will argue as they don't want to admit they are wrong, but will change their mind when left to their own thoughts if they have been provided with a logical reason to.

Risteard81 · 11-02-2021 02:52PM

monkeybutter wrote: »

give us an example of such a side effect that they should be testing for and how many years of testing you would be happy with

The whole point is that we don't know what side effects may develop. But a recent vaccine created widespread narcolepsy.

oisinog · 11-02-2021 02:58PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

The whole point is that we don't know what side effects may develop. But a recent vaccine created widespread narcolepsy.

Which vaccine was that?

11-02-2021 03:00PM

oisinog wrote: »

Which vaccine was that?

OisinOG, don't entertain an irrational person. It is not a productive use of your time.

Mrs OBumble · 11-02-2021 03:01PM

oisinog wrote: »

Which vaccine was that?

Swine flu.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/feb/09/ministers-lose-fight-to-stop-payouts-in-swine-flu-jab-narcolepsy-cases

Deeper Blue · 11-02-2021 03:03PM

Bambi wrote: »

He probably told her that the vaccines have been rushed through to such a degree that the makers would not ship them unless governments granted them indemnity from prosecution if anything goes wrong.

Or that Mrna vaccines are a completely new method of vaccination.

Both of which are true.

They weren't rushed through

monkeybutter · 11-02-2021 03:03PM

Risteard81 wrote: »

The whole point is that we don't know what side effects may develop. But a recent vaccine created widespread narcolepsy.

ok, great example now how long do you test for that and how big a sample do you use until you get to that 1 in 10k 20k side effect

was that Pandemrix vaccine rushed?

this is what i mean when you said it was rushed

plodder · 11-02-2021 03:15PM

"widespread narcolepsy" :rolleyes:

The adjuvants added to some old style vaccines have been accused (in one instance) of causing very rare cases of narcolepsy.

So, you'd think the new type of mRNA vaccine that doesn't use these adjuvants would be safer. So, instead they have to change tack and accuse them of being "new" and "untested".

lemush · 11-02-2021 03:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

OisinOG, don't entertain an irrational person. It is not a productive use of your time.

How is he irrational? Some people developed narcolepsy from the Swine Flu jab, stating so is not anti vaxx it is a matter of fact.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/settlement-for-narcolepsy-teen-offers-hope-for-80-other-cases-involving-swine-flu-jab-39708171.html

DaSilva · 11-02-2021 03:20PM

There are some big homeopathy believers in my family too that I think I will end up talking to about the vaccine. The good thing is, I think conveying a proper understanding of how these vaccines work should impress homeopathy believers as the covid vaccines basically work on the homeopathic principle

Its practitioners, called homeopaths, believe that a substance that causes symptoms of a disease in healthy people can cure similar symptoms in sick people; this doctrine is called similia similibus curentur, or "like cures like".

I plan to explain that the vaccine is effectively a homeopathic remedy, except it actually works.

eleventh · 11-02-2021 03:23PM

Hunchback wrote: »

...
Anyway, interested to see if anybody has any views on this.

TLDR: I have an elderly mum who was convinced by a quack doctor not take the Covid vaccine and I don't know what to do.

You can share your view with your mother but it would not be right to try and force your view - in the same way as you probably wouldn't like it if someone tried to force their view onto you.

She is 70+ and has been dealing with this practitioner for 'decades' as you said.
She obviously trusts them and/or had some doubts already about the push for this vaccine and probably (quite rationally in my view) had reservations about volunteering herself as a human guinea pig.

Larbre34 wrote: »

...I would say to her, "fine, you're an adult, you can do what you like, but you won't be seeing me or my kids until we in turn are vaccinated later in the programme. See you at Christmas. Maybe."

You are mis-informed.
The HSE guide to vaccine-taking says there is still a chance the person can get covid AFTER taking one of the vaccines.
It also states that the vaccine-makers make no claim at all as to immunity - i.e. a vaccinated person can still pass 'the virus' on to others, for all they know.
So basically, if you are distancing / masking now for fear of a virus spreading, you will have to continue doing that even after vaccines are taken.

If you read what they actually say, there is no good reason to ingest this (untested) vaccine into your system.
Of course being an adult, you are free to take that risk, as with any drug.

11-02-2021 03:24PM

lemush wrote: »

How is he irrational? Some people developed narcolepsy from the Swine Flu jab, stating so is not anti vaxx it is a matter of fact.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/settlement-for-narcolepsy-teen-offers-hope-for-80-other-cases-involving-swine-flu-jab-39708171.html

If I cared I'd ask you to quantify "some" but I don't.
Not engaging. FUD abounds.

Mrs OBumble · 11-02-2021 03:26PM

Hunchback wrote: »

In relation to not seeing my mum again until she has had her jabs, I have a place in the west of Ireland that I return to every weekend with my partner, but Monday to Friday had live with my mum in Dublin. Have done for five years. Difficult situation.

So you have been happy enough to endanger her by living with her while you go out to work each day. But now you want her to take steps to reduce the risk.

Ard you a frontline medical worker, and thus have been vaccinated yourself?

Unless her GP says that she is no longer mentally competent to make her own life decisions, then there is nothing which you CAN do, except source your own weekday accommodation.

You MAY, and likely SHOULD, choose to present her with alternative views. But you cannot force her to abandon long-held beliefs just because you don't share them

monkeybutter · 11-02-2021 03:27PM

eleventh wrote: »

You can share your view with your mother but it would not be right to try and force your view - in the same way as you probably wouldn't like it if someone tried to force their view onto you.

She is 70+ and has been dealing with this practitioner for 'decades' as you said.
She obviously trusts them and/or had some doubts already about the push for this vaccine and probably (quite rationally in my view) had reservations about volunteering herself a human guinea pig.

You are mis-informed.
The HSE guide to vaccine-taking says there is still a chance the person can get covid AFTER taking one of the vaccines.
It also states that the vaccine-makers make no claim at all as to immunity - i.e. a vaccinated person can still pass 'the virus' on to others, for all they know.
So basically, if you are distancing / masking now for fear of a virus spreading, you will have to continue doing that even after vaccines are taken.

If you read what they actually say, there is no good reason to ingest this (untested) vaccine into your system.
Of course being an adult, you are free to take that risk, as with any drug.

it has been tested though

and it massively reduces the chances of getting sick

Nozebleed · 11-02-2021 03:28PM

monkeybutter wrote: »

give us an example of such a side effect that they should be testing for and how many years of testing you would be happy with

immune thrombocytopenia, a rare and sometimes fatal blood disorder...

gmisk · 11-02-2021 03:29PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So you have been happy enough to endanger her by living with her while you go out to work each day. But now you want her to take steps to reduce the risk.

Ard you a frontline medical worker, and thus have been vaccinated yourself?

Unless her GP says that she is no longer mentally competent to make her own life decisions, then there is nothing which you CAN do, except source your own weekday accommodation.

You MAY, and likely SHOULD, choose to present her with alternative views. But you cannot force her to abandon long-held beliefs just because you don't share them

You are seriously jumping to some conclusions here and jumping down the OP throat imo. You don't know their situation.

What are these "long held beliefs"? Again you seem to be jumping to conclusions.

Ficheall · 11-02-2021 03:30PM

Could only find UK figures with a brief search:

About 100 of 6000000 got narcolepsy from the swine flu vaccine.
That's 1 in 60000.
115000 of 4000000 infected with covid died.
That's 1725 in 60000.

Tough call...

plodder · 11-02-2021 03:30PM

eleventh wrote: »

You can share your view with your mother but it would not be right to try and force your view - in the same way as you probably wouldn't like it if someone tried to force their view onto you.

She is 70+ and has been dealing with this practitioner for 'decades' as you said.
She obviously trusts them and/or had some doubts already about the push for this vaccine and probably (quite rationally in my view) had reservations about volunteering herself a human guinea pig.

You are mis-informed.
The HSE guide to vaccine-taking says there is still a chance the person can get covid AFTER taking one of the vaccines.

Yes. 95% efficacy means there is still a 5% chance of catching it .

It also states that the vaccine-makers make no claim at all as to immunity - i.e. a vaccinated person can still pass 'the virus' on to others, for all they know.
So basically, if you are distancing / masking now for fear of a virus spreading, you will have to continue doing that even after vaccines are taken.

You don't know that. The evidence emerging is suggesting that spreading is vastly reduced. They just didn't have the data before.

monkeybutter · 11-02-2021 03:35PM

Nozebleed wrote: »

immune thrombocytopenia, a rare and sometimes fatal blood disorder...

this seems to be a side effect of your immune system rather than the vaccine itself

it may not even be related to the vaccine

so you could get the same issue with saying getting covid etc

very rare right, 1 in a million

also, its incidence level is not seen as being above that in the unvaccinated population

so might be nothing

Cordell · 11-02-2021 03:36PM

Hunchback wrote: »

an alternative/homeopathic doctor has turned my mum agsainst the idea of getting vaccinated against the Covid 19 virus.

Sorry to hear that your mum has fallen pray to these evil scammers. It's one thing to scam people out of their money, and a whole another level of evil to turn them away from the actual medicine.

Hunchback · 11-02-2021 03:39PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So you have been happy enough to endanger her by living with her while you go out to work each day. But now you want her to take steps to reduce the risk.

Ard you a frontline medical worker, and thus have been vaccinated yourself?

Unless her GP says that she is no longer mentally competent to make her own life decisions, then there is nothing which you CAN do, except source your own weekday accommodation.

You MAY, and likely SHOULD, choose to present her with alternative views. But you cannot force her to abandon long-held beliefs just because you don't share them

I am an essential worker. No, the thoughts of endangering my mother does not make me happy. Thankfully, I work alone in a room and I drive to work, so I avoid public transport. I can't force my mum to do anything. Thanks for the abrasive tone. 'So you have been happy enough to endanger her'. :eek:

oisinog · 11-02-2021 03:39PM

lemush wrote: »

How is he irrational? Some people developed narcolepsy from the Swine Flu jab, stating so is not anti vaxx it is a matter of fact.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/settlement-for-narcolepsy-teen-offers-hope-for-80-other-cases-involving-swine-flu-jab-39708171.html

So 100 cases out of 6 million so the side effects were affected less than 0.0001% of people vaccinated I would think that is a very low risk.

If you looked at the rare side effects of Paracetmol you would never use it.

'Alternative' doctor has turned my mum off Covid vaccine

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