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'Alternative' doctor has turned my mum off Covid vaccine

  • 11-02-2021 1:59pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ Hunchback


    Okay,

    I don't have too much time to type this because I am on my lunch break at work. But, as per the title to the thread, an alternative/homeopathic doctor has turned my mum agsainst the idea of getting vaccinated against the Covid 19 virus. She is 74 years old.

    At the very least, he has confused her and now she does not know what to do.

    I am both angry, and in shock, because I did not think that she would be susceptible to something that an anti-vaxxer would say to her.

    She has been a client of this 'Dr' for decades. I have a brother who thinks that the guy is a quack and has said this to my mum on a number of occasions. I on the other hand think that at her age (74) she should be left to believe what she believes in and to do with her money as she sees fit. (He also sells his homeopathic remedies to his clients once he has seen them).

    However, I think a line is crossed when these practitioners warn against things like cancer treatments, or in this case against Covid 19 vaccination.

    He has told her that the vaccine messes with a person's genes. He has said that a lot of the reason why people succumbed to the Covid 19 virus is because they have previously taken vaccines which have weakened their resistance. In short, he is an anti vaxxer.

    I am not sure how to talk to my mum because I am so frustrated. Obviously when she told me last night I was in shock and I told her that I couldn't believe she was even confused momentarily. I was a little bit angry at her (well frustrated as a better word) but I was really angry at the alternative Dr that she went to see.

    I believe that the best way to be is 'don't tell them that they are stupid / don't ridicule their beliefs' when you are dealing with people who don't believe in the benefits of the vaccine, or are confused.

    I guess I am here today to ask for advice on how to change her mind back to the way it was the day before yesterday. I suggested off the bat that she should go and talk to her regular GP, who can act as a counterpoint to the quack she saw yesterday. I also advised, or requested, that she talked to my other two brothers. The reason for this is that I don't think she should internalise her thought process, but as the stakes are so high, she really should discuss the issues with the people closest to her, and also discuss them with the doctor.

    Incidentally, I wonder how many other people he has also convinced that the Covid 19 vaccine is potentially injurious to their health. I asked my mum who was he public about his views in relation to the Covid 19 vaccine. She said that he is. To which I said 'how many respected voices do you hear in the media coming out against the Covid 19 vaccine? All the science points to very high efficacy of the vaccine. People who tend to comment against it seemed to withdraw their remarks within days. There is no credible evidence to suggest that not taking the vaccine as a preferable approach'.

    Anyway, interested to see if anybody has any views on this.


«13456

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,253 ✭✭✭ Risteard81


    Does informed consent not include considering views other than the status quo?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,802 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34


    Is he/she a doctor or a homeopath?

    Some Doctors introduce complementary therapy for many things like pain management and treatment of symptoms, but their core practice is the medical science. So, some doctors are homeopaths, but no homeopaths are doctors.

    As for your main problem, my mother is the same age. She is waiting patiently to be called for her jabs, but If she were to suddenly take leave of her senses and refuse them, I would say to her, "fine, you're an adult, you can do what you like, but you won't be seeing me or my kids until we in turn are vaccinated later in the programme. See you at Christmas. Maybe."


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ Hunchback


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Does informed consent not include considering views other than the status quo?

    It does. But the anti vaxx position is widely discredited. And she is 74, so very susceptible to Covid 19.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭ suicide_circus


    Not much you can do really other than outlining your concerns. Could she be endangering other family members if she's unvaccinated?


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,333 ✭✭✭✭ seamus


    If he is a doctor, you can make a complaint to the Irish Medical Council.

    If he's not a doctor, but is claiming to be one, or is giving medical advice under the pretence that he knows what he is doing, then you can make a criminal complaint to the Gardai.

    Outside of that, I would push the point with your mother that this man has no qualifications to talk about these things. He does not have a medical qualification, he is not an expert, and his opinion should be given no more credence than gossip.

    Strictly speaking, these quack practitioners are bound by general rules of safety and duty of care like any other business, but actually holding them to account is another matter entirely.

    I'd give your mother information showing that things like homeopathy, chiropractic, etc., are quack nonsense. Discredit him and she's less likely to accept his nonsense.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ Hunchback


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Is he/she a doctor or a homeopath?

    Some Doctors introduce complementary therapy for many things like pain management and treatment of symptoms, but their core practice is the medical science. So, some doctors are homeopaths, but no homeopaths are doctors.

    As for your main problem, my mother is the same age. She is waiting patiently to be called for her jabs, but If she were to suddenly take leave of her senses and refuse them, I would say to her, "fine, you're an adult, you can do what you like, but you won't be seeing me or my kids until we in turn are vaccinated later in the programme. See you at Christmas. Maybe."

    Interesting. He is a homeopath. To be fair, he probably never referred to himself as a doctor or held himself out to be a doctor and I don't mean to in any way imply that he is claiming to be something that he is not. It may be the case that my mum used the word Dr, but it does not seem to apply to him.

    In relation to not seeing my mum again until she has had her jabs, I have a place in the west of Ireland that I return to every weekend with my partner, but Monday to Friday had live with my mum in Dublin. Have done for five years. Difficult situation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ 1123heavy


    Hunchback wrote: »
    Okay,

    I don't have too much time to type this because I am on my lunch break at work. But, as per the title to the thread, an alternative/homeopathic doctor has turned my mum agsainst the idea of getting vaccinated against the Covid 19 virus. She is 74 years old.

    At the very least, he has confused her and now she does not know what to do.

    I am both angry, and in shock, because I did not think that she would be susceptible to something that an anti-vaxxer would say to her.

    She has been a client of this 'Dr' for decades. I have a brother who thinks that the guy is a quack and has said this to my mum on a number of occasions. I on the other hand think that at her age (74) she should be left to believe what she believes in and to do with her money as she sees fit. (He also sells his homeopathic remedies to his clients once he has seen them).

    However, I think a line is crossed when these practitioners warn against things like cancer treatments, or in this case against Covid 19 vaccination.

    He has told her that the vaccine messes with a person's genes. He has said that a lot of the reason why people succumbed to the Covid 19 virus is because they have previously taken vaccines which have weakened their resistance. In short, he is an anti vaxxer.

    I am not sure how to talk to my mum because I am so frustrated. Obviously when she told me last night I was in shock and I told her that I couldn't believe she was even confused momentarily. I was a little bit angry at her (well frustrated as a better word) but I was really angry at the alternative Dr that she went to see.

    I believe that the best way to be is 'don't tell them that they are stupid / don't ridicule their beliefs' when you are dealing with people who don't believe in the benefits of the vaccine, or are confused.

    I guess I am here today to ask for advice on how to change her mind back to the way it was the day before yesterday. I suggested off the bat that she should go and talk to her regular GP, who can act as a counterpoint to the quack she saw yesterday. I also advised, or requested, that she talked to my other two brothers. The reason for this is that I don't think she should internalise her thought process, but as the stakes are so high, she really should discuss the issues with the people closest to her, and also discuss them with the doctor.

    Incidentally, I wonder how many other people he has also convinced that the Covid 19 vaccine is potentially injurious to their health. I asked my mum who was he public about his views in relation to the Covid 19 vaccine. She said that he is. To which I said 'how many respected voices do you hear in the media coming out against the Covid 19 vaccine? All the science points to very high efficacy of the vaccine. People who tend to comment against it seemed to withdraw their remarks within days. There is no credible evidence to suggest that not taking the vaccine as a preferable approach'.

    Anyway, interested to see if anybody has any views on this.

    TLDR: I have an elderly mum who was convinced by a quack doctor not take the Covid vaccine and I don't know what to do.

    Who is this alternative doctor and is he registered with the HSE? I originally thought it was her regular GP who said all this until you said you may convince her to go to her regular GP

    If he is not a regular GP then under what authority is he practicing and who has licensed him to practice medicine?

    If this is some underground world then I imagine he is liable to be sued. If he is simply someone with opinions who people go to see and pay money for then I suggest there's not a whole lot you can do and your mother herself may be an anti vaxxer, you don't wake up in the morning and suddenly decide to go see one of these people unless you believe their particular approach is to your liking. In other words she must agree with his 'alternative' approach.

    Are you sure she herself doesn't believe in the alternative world and is now trying to blame it on the doctor as if he convinced her, whereas all along she had no intention of getting the vaccine anyway?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,451 ✭✭✭✭ pwurple


    First of all, find out if that person is on the medical council register by looking them up here:

    https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/public-information/check-the-register/

    If an actual doctor, I'd contact the medical council with concerns.

    If not, show your mother that they are not registered, and therefore not qualified to give guidance on medical matters.

    Sometimes doctors that have been struck off set themselves up this way...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,253 ✭✭✭ Risteard81


    Hunchback wrote: »
    It does. But the anti vaxx position is widely discredited. And she is 74, so very susceptible to Covid 19.

    It's shouldn't be discredited to state that the safety of a rushed novel vaccine (mRNA which has never safely been done before) is not certain.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Show her this from the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/av/53154442

    They are doing a number of different versions in different languages as there are also myths that the vaccines contain pork/beef/alcohol depending on who is being targeted.

    the anti vaxxers really are arrogant little tossers.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭ oisinog


    Contact the "Alternative" doctor and ask for copies of the research papers he is using to discredit the Vaccine.

    Let your Mum know that you are doing this and when he is unable to provide the scientific papers tell her he is talking through his a**e.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,339 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    He probably told her that the vaccines have been rushed through to such a degree that the makers would not ship them unless governments granted them indemnity from prosecution if anything goes wrong.

    Or that Mrna vaccines are a completely new method of vaccination.

    Both of which are true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ Hunchback


    Not much you can do really other than outlining your concerns. Could she be endangering other family members if she's unvaccinated?

    She follows protocol in terms of hand washing and social distancing, not travelling outside of 5 km radius et cetera. So, I suppose, she won't be endangering other people any more then each of us who follow the rules currently are currently endangering each other. The main risk is to herself and to other people who refuse to be vaccinated.

    I am hoping she comes around in the next day or two.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,447 ✭✭✭✭ expectationlost


    hopefully her GP will contact her in the next few weeks and that'll give an opportunity to talk to her.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap


    If your relationship is strong enough then tell her you will not be seeing her until she gets immunized and if there are grandchildren make it clear they will not be allowed visit either...cruel to be kind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 640 ✭✭✭ timetogo1


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    It's shouldn't be discredited to state that the safety of a rushed novel vaccine (mRNA which has never safely been done before) is not certain.

    What's that got to do with the OP?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,253 ✭✭✭ Risteard81


    timetogo1 wrote: »
    What's that got to do with the OP?

    Plenty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ Hunchback


    1123heavy wrote: »
    Who is this alternative doctor and is he registered with the HSE? I originally thought it was her regular GP who said all this until you said you may convince her to go to her regular GP

    If he is not a regular GP then under what authority is he practicing and who has licensed him to practice medicine?

    If this is some underground world then I imagine he is liable to be sued. If he is simply someone with opinions who people go to see and pay money for then I suggest there's not a whole lot you can do and your mother herself may be an anti vaxxer, you don't wake up in the morning and suddenly decide to go see one of these people unless you believe their particular approach is to your liking. In other words she must agree with his 'alternative' approach.

    Are you sure she herself doesn't believe in the alternative world and is now trying to blame it on the doctor as if he convinced her, whereas all along she had no intention of getting the vaccine anyway?

    Sorry, I thought I had addressed this previously, but just for the avoidance of doubt and in case my previous post wasn't entirely clear, please anyone who is reading this post be aware of the following.

    My mum does believe this stuff. She believes in homeopathy. She purchases this products from this practitioner who she goes to see of her own volition. Nobody is coaxing her to go there. Nobody is pressuring her to go there. I have visited the guys website and there are no claims to be a medical doctor. I think that my mum may have in error referred to him as a doctor. There is absolutely no way that I am going to reveal the identity of the person on this forum because I am all too aware of the potential for litigation that would arise. So I am steadfast and resolute in that position and there was no way I will disclose this person's details by private message or otherwise.

    Now, having said all the above, the effect on my mum is still the same. Until she went to see him the day before yesterday, she was fully on board with the information that the covid 19 vaccine was a good thing for somebody who is vulnerable as she is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭ monkeybutter


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Plenty.

    I hear 5g is a terrible curse also


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭ haphaphap


    She has recently acquired strongly held beliefs.
    You have strongly held beliefs that you could possibly infect and kill her if you pass virus to her so you won't be visiting.
    She can retain her strongly held beliefs or if she wants to see you she will relent.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭ MacDanger


    Try explaining at a basic level how a vaccine trial works; for example, in simple terms the Pfizer trial went something like this:

    1. ~44,000 people selected who cover a wide range of ages and backgrounds
    2. Half (the test group) are given the vaccine and half (the control group) a given an injection of a salt solution (no participant knows which they receive)
    3. All participants are monitored for Covid and this data is recorded; if the vaccine has zero effect, you would expect both groups to have roughly the same amount of positive tests over time
    4. After 3-4 months (in this case), ~200 people in the control group had tested positive for Covid while <10 people who received the vaccine tested positive - this is basically where the 90% efficacy comes from


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ Hunchback


    I hear 5g is a terrible curse also

    He said this too!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,253 ✭✭✭ Risteard81


    I hear 5g is a terrible curse also

    I never mentioned 5G. Just proves you have nothing useful to add to the discussion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭ oisinog


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    It's shouldn't be discredited to state that the safety of a rushed novel vaccine (mRNA which has never safely been done before) is not certain.

    At the start of the vaccine trials I was listening to a vaccine researcher in one of the bbc radio stations.

    The reason vaccines take a long time to develop is it is not cost effictive for the companies developing them to set aside hundreds of millions of pounds/dollars/euros to develop them immediatley. They have to look at them in a cost effictive method.

    In the case with these vaccines every country has thrown money at the development to allow the process to be completed quicker as well as the licencing agencys fast tracking their slow approval process.


    Yes the testing hasnt been as widespread as they usually are but desprate times call for desprate mesaures.

    But this is the problem with all anti-vaxers they change the narrative of the story to suit the outcome they want to come to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,802 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34


    Judging by the OPs response, this person is not a Doctor and we should all stop using the word immediately to avoid confusion to future posters.

    When talking about him to your mother OP, you should take every opportunity to say, "he isn't a doctor, don't call him that".


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ Hunchback


    MacDanger wrote: »
    Try explaining at a basic level how a vaccine trial works; for example, in simple terms the Pfizer trial went something like this:

    1. ~44,000 people selected who cover a wide range of ages and backgrounds
    2. Half (the test group) are given the vaccine and half (the control group) a given an injection of a salt solution (no participant knows which they receive)
    3. All participants are monitored for Covid and this data is recorded; if the vaccine has zero effect, you would expect both groups to have roughly the same amount of positive tests over time
    4. After 3-4 months (in this case), ~200 people in the control group had tested positive for Covid while <10 people who received the vaccine tested positive - this is basically where the 90% efficacy comes from

    Seems like a good summary. His advice to her was don't get it done because it messes with your genes. I don't claim to understand what this is about, but presumably he is implying that the negtative effects of the vaccine will be felt long term rather than immediately.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,253 ✭✭✭ Risteard81


    oisinog wrote: »
    At the start of the vaccine trials I was listening to a vaccine researcher in one of the bbc radio stations.

    The resason vaccines take a long time to develop is it is not cost effictive for the companies developing them to set aside hundreds of millions of pounds/dollars/euros to develop them immediatley. They have to look at them in a cost effictive method.

    In the case with these vaccines every country has thrown money at the development to allow the process to be completed quicker as well as the licencing agencys fast tracking their slow approval process.


    Yes the testing hasnt been as widespread as they usuall are but desprate times call for desprate mesaures.

    But this is the problem with all anti-vaxers they change the narrative of the story to suit the outcome they want to come to.

    They haven't gone through years of safety testing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭ lemush


    I hear 5g is a terrible curse also

    What an absolutely moronic response.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭ Hunchback


    I have to jump off here for a while and returned to my day job. Thanks all for the responses to date.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭ 1123heavy


    OK if she herself believes this stuff I'd bet all along she was on the fence over the vaccine at best. She was just figuring out how best to break it to you all and decided yesterday was time to do it, the practitioner is the handiest person to blame for it.

    I don't doubt he told her not to take it, but the very fact she's going to see him tells me she never believed in the vaccine or had any intention to take it.

    I don't agree telling her she can't see you or the grandkids, especially if they're very young and you're of good health - she will actually convince you of being the brainwashed one considering how unlikely you're all to be affected by it.

    I see it that only time can cure it, once all the people who take it don't grow antennas or vanish, she'll eventually go off and take it hopefully and realise fantasy playtime is over.


This discussion has been closed.
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