The way forward for LC2021

Mrsmum · 02-02-2021 10:38AM

History Queen wrote: »

I didn't think so considering 40% got better grades without being in class for 5 months before the exams. Imagineif they had had the normal class contact time in the run up.

But 60% got a better grade without ever sitting the exam at all. Can you not see how that will be read.

rainbowtrout · 02-02-2021 10:40AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

But 60% got a better grade without ever sitting the exam at all. Can you not see how that will be read.

Well if you want to go down that route, then couldn't the DES go, 'well we let them away lightly last year, now we have reasonable justification to clamp down on the predicted grades this year and pull them down'. By your own argument, most students did only 1 or 2 subjects, so surely when they had months to prepare for that subject they should have been able to pull it out of the bag.

History Queen · 02-02-2021 10:43AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

But 60% got a better grade without ever sitting the exam at all. Can you not see how that will be read.

I can see how it can be read, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

Mrsmum · 02-02-2021 10:47AM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well if you want to go down that route, then couldn't the DES go, 'well we let them away lightly last year, now we have reasonable justification to clamp down on the predicted grades this year and pull them down'. By your own argument, most students did only 1 or 2 subjects, so surely when they had months to prepare for that subject they should have been able to pull it out of the bag.

I think it shows that perhaps their teachers were very generous.
As for some kind of revenge tactic from the DES, I would hope they are more mature than that.
Bottom line is the results today are not a major selling point to students for doing written exams.

indolent · 02-02-2021 10:49AM

If they thought last year's grades were high, they're in for some shock. Teachers who trusted that the results would be standardized across schools won't be fooled twice. Norma's days are numbered

Mrsmum · 02-02-2021 10:52AM

History Queen wrote: »

I can see how it can be read, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

Of course, but if you were a student and not a teacher would you still feel the same. That is the point I'm trying to make. It's difficult to get the tone right on line. Sometimes people just want to teese things out rather than picking a side.

History Queen · 02-02-2021 10:54AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Of course, but if you were a student and not a teacher would you still feel the same. That is the point I'm trying to make. It's difficult to get the tone right on line. Sometimes people just want to teese things out rather than picking a side.

Agreed. But people will see what they want to see in these types of things I think. Confirmation bias. If someone wants to sit the exam this summer this will reassure them,if someone wants predicted grades it'll also reassure them.

Mrsmum · 02-02-2021 11:00AM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not all students would consider English, Irish and Maths their best subjects - or worst depending on what way you want to look at exams v predicted grades.

It's as difficult to predict a grade in any subject. You know a student's ability, you know how they have scored in class tests on the day. You give your best estimation based on that, but it could go either way on the day. There are students every year who surprise their teachers by pulling a higher grade out of the bag, equally there are students who make a complete mess of the paper and score lower than expected.

I was thinking core subjects rather than their favourite subjects.
Tks for your thoughts on one subject over another being equally as difficult.

indolent · 02-02-2021 11:03AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Bottom line is the results today are not a major selling point to students for doing written exams.

Is it really their job to incentivize students to sit them ? Do them, don't do them whatever. I don't understand why students and parents alike believe its their god forsaken right to attend college without having sat exams.

Pre-pandemic, students suffering bereavements would be given just 3 days leave from exams. No predicted grades for these students. If they wanted to attend college, they would just have to sit the leaving cert.

Why can't such a tough stance be adopted this year ? The department are making absolutely no effort.

rainbowtrout · 02-02-2021 11:07AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think it shows that perhaps their teachers were very generous.
As for some kind of revenge tactic from the DES, I would hope they are more mature than that.
Bottom line is the results today are not a major selling point to students for doing written exams.

It would be disingenuous to see it as revenge. There was no experience of doing this before last year. The grades were inflated last year. The majority of students who sat the written exams did not improve on the predicted grade. It would point to justification for tweaking it further this year, rather than revenge.

Wombatman · 02-02-2021 11:08AM

As expected, CAO applications hit record levels. More misery for the 2021 LCs as they will probably require higher points to secure a college place. They will be up against many 2020 LCs who's points will be made up of predicted grades. The 2020 LCs will get offered places first, leaving fewer places for the 2021 LCs.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/cao-applications-hit-record-levels-40038770.html

French Toast · 02-02-2021 11:09AM

Wombatman wrote: »

As expected, CAO applications hit record levels. More misery for the 2021 LCs as they will probably require higher points to secure a college place. They will be up against many 2020 LCs who's points will be made up of predicted grades. The 2020 LCs will get offered places first, leaving fewer places for the 2021 LCs.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/cao-applications-hit-record-levels-40038770.html

The perfect storm.

Mrsmum · 02-02-2021 11:10AM

indolent wrote: »

Is it really their job to incentivize students to sit them ? Do them, don't do them whatever. I don't understand why students and parents alike believe its their god forsaken right to attend college without having sat exams.

Pre-pandemic, students suffering bereavements would be given just 3 days leave from exams. No predicted grades for these students. If they wanted to attend college, they would just have to sit the leaving cert.

Why can't such a tough stance be adopted this year ? The department are making absolutely no effort.

I would say because of last year. Precedent.

Treppen · 02-02-2021 11:25AM

Wombatman wrote: »

As expected, CAO applications hit record levels. More misery for the 2021 LCs as they will probably require higher points to secure a college place. They will be up against many 2020 LCs who's points will be made up of predicted grades. The 2020 LCs will get offered places first, leaving fewer places for the 2021 LCs.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/cao-applications-hit-record-levels-40038770.html

Wow! Nearly 80,000 applicants. I thought it would be high but not that high, it was usually around 60k no?

Wombatman · 02-02-2021 11:37AM

Treppen wrote: »

Wow! Nearly 80,000 applicants. I thought it would be high but not that high, it was usually around 60k no?

72,751 in 2018 and 76,213 in 2017. Last year’s number was 73,035.

rainbowtrout · 02-02-2021 11:41AM

Treppen wrote: »

Wow! Nearly 80,000 applicants. I thought it would be high but not that high, it was usually around 60k no?

It typically would be, the ones who sat the winter LC can't account for all of it as there was only 2000-2500 students registered for the exams from what was reported a couple of months back.

Population is increasing, students might be thinking twice about going abroad with covid being the major factor, students might not be looking at the UK as an option this year due to Brexit. And I presume some students decided to wait it out last year.

79k is massive though.

With numbers like that I think it puts in perspective predicted grades v written exams. There will be huge competition for places regardless of how grades are decided.

Bobtheman · 02-02-2021 12:02PM

I see no reason why the Department could not create a couple of mock papers to add some variety. Even as I write this Im thinking this is a mess.
Students obviously would prefer Predicted grades plus the option of an exam in Nov again. For very obvious reasons. No studying etc.
But I say hold the line-give them an exam in July -increase their choice and tell them to get on with it.
Im tired of hearing about the mental health of students. Life is stessfull=we cant give them the impression that **** doesn't happen.
That being said-giving them a wellness module and no counselling is bull****.
Those who need help-give them professionals but in life simply saying you have mental health issues doesn't get you a free pass on the **** that life will throw at you. Unfortunately.

PoolDude · 02-02-2021 12:09PM

History Queen wrote: »

I didn't think so considering 40% got better grades without being in class for 5 months before the exams. Imagineif they had had the normal class contact time in the run up.

60% got the same or worse grades

I'd say if they go hybrid it will be interesting to see if students know their PG & would they pick their worst subject or best subjects to take predicted grades in.

Based on the fact 60% are the same or less you might pick your worst and then try to maximise the results in your best by focusing on them knowing there is a 40% chance you'd do better than a PG and that was with 4 months or more extra study time and having completed the course with less class time missed

PoolDude · 02-02-2021 12:13PM

Wombatman wrote: »

72,751 in 2018 and 76,213 in 2017. Last year’s number was 73,035.

So a 6k increase in applications and did Harris announce 5k more places next year - so a delta of 1k places? They should be able to solve for that in the first instances as it takes that challenge off the table and reduces some of the stress this news will add without this context.

Rosita · 02-02-2021 12:16PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I find it somewhat disturbing our resistance to radically changing our educational system, it no longer truly serves us, covid is a perfect opportunity to do so, but here we are.....

I think this is cliched nonsense. In what way does it not "truly serve us"? What is it supposed to achieve?

Leaving aside the educational variety provided by schools, by and large the LC seems quite successful in rewarding people who are relatively intelligent and hard-working and ensuring that they go forward to courses and careers which they are capable of undertaking. In my experience students in general terms get from the LC what they deserve based on what I have seen from them in the classroom in the context of the combination of demonstrated work-ethic, apparent intelligence, and specific aptitude. The LC seems to measure these aspects quite well in my experience though the outcomes doesn't suit many people because they are stuck with the consequences and let's face it, it's quite a personal judgement of someone.

I know lots of people who find terminal exams stressful simply because they haven't the work-ethic to prepare for them. Why wouldn't they be stressed? Sometimes it's lamented as a "memory test" which is another get-out clause for the lazy underachieving. It's nearly impossible to set an exam of any description which does not have a memory aspect, but since when has the ability to remember stuff become a bad thing?

And if anyone thinks that continuous assessment will unleash a previously pent-up bunch of critical thinkers who will thrive when the dreaded terminal exam is dispensed with they are delusional. Many of these will have to be chased to complete this work. At least with the LC the onus is on them to show up and do it or not.

Smacruairi · 02-02-2021 01:05PM

Rosita wrote: »

And if anyone thinks that continuous assessment will unleash a previously pent-up bunch of critical thinkers who will thrive when the dreaded terminal exam is dispensed with they are delusional. Many of these will have to be chased to complete this work. At least with the LC the onus is on them to show up and do it or not.

Your post hits all my points. Your final point here in particular. Do people think that there's not already a form of current assessment in the form of class tests, Xmas tests, summer tests? The amount of students who have shocked me to go up massively from my class tests to the leaving I could count on one hand. We have continuous, it just isn't marked by the DES.

The whole "is a memory test" is nonsense. 40%oral in Irish, maths is a skill, English paper 1 you practically can't study for. The list goes on.

French Toast · 02-02-2021 01:11PM

The only argument I'd listen to in regards to LC reform is running some assessments at the end of 5th year. Also the Irish curriculum needs to change, but that's another topic entirely.

Continuous assessment has not been a step forward for the Junior Cert and would not work at Leaving Cert level.

rainbowtrout · 02-02-2021 01:27PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

I see no reason why the Department could not create a couple of mock papers to add some variety.

If the DES created mock papers (separate to the work of the SEC) it would lead to a lot of 'Yeats came up on the mock paper, he definitely won't be on the real one' type stuff. Just a minefield. Better off to stay well away from mock papers aside from releasing one sample paper for new courses.

Smacruairi · 02-02-2021 01:33PM

Also creating a mock isn't a issue (for me anyway, might be more difficult in maths type subjects). It's the correction /moderation that's the issue

shesty · 02-02-2021 02:28PM

Tbh, if a student can't manage their college course, they won't be able to stay in it. There may be some who feel they might do better out of the predicted grades scenario and so might get the course they want, but they tend to fail to realise that getting the course they want doesn't actually mean passing out at the end of the 3 or 4 years of that course.

I'd come down on the side of just get on with the exams. Give the media no fodder, make the decision, announce it and move on to make it happen. The media are a good 50% of the problem in all of this.

History Queen · 02-02-2021 03:19PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Also creating a mock isn't a issue (for me anyway, might be more difficult in maths type subjects). It's the correction /moderation that's the issue

We correct our own mocks in our school every year. A small few send out for correction but it is very much the exception.

Mardy Bum · 02-02-2021 04:39PM

Answer due next week following the Cabinet meeting. I imagine the English system will be copied. In school exams in May and continuous assessment used as metrics.

Alex86Eire · 02-02-2021 06:25PM

History Queen wrote: »

We correct our own mocks in our school every year. A small few send out for correction but it is very much the exception.

Same with us. Some people make their own mock papers too.

Bobtheman · 02-02-2021 07:10PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Answer due next week following the Cabinet meeting. I imagine the English system will be copied. In school exams in May and continuous assessment used as metrics.

If they can do an in school exam in May why the hell can't they do the leaving??

Treppen · 02-02-2021 07:33PM

Why are they comparing Today's students LC grades to Predicted Grades on RTE?
I thought it was Calculated grades!!!

The way forward for LC2021

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