The way forward for LC2021

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But if they are struggling with the material at LC level, how are they going to cope with college level material?

Very often it's not that the material is astonishingly hard I would say but the student's application is not good enough. Sometimes (not always by any means) that can improve.

Presumably if they have gotten through a college degree they'll be able to handle LC ideas that they might have struggled with, for whatever reason, at the time. I certainly know I'd do better in my subject in the Leaving Cert after University than I did at the time. In fact I have a degree and Master's in a subject I didn't even for for JC never mind LC.

But I suppose it comes down to whether you give primacy to a University degree or a LC grade as the stronger indicator of knowledge. I would veer towards the former.

Polka_Dot

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But if they are struggling with the material at LC level, how are they going to cope with college level material?

If they have an aptitude for science, they should be able to show that at LC level. Not sure I want people to land into science degrees with poor grades in science and hope they improve and then send them out into schools to teach the subject. It's hard to foster a love of science (or any other subject) in students if you barely understand the material yourself.

One of the common gripes we see on here and elsewhere on social media is people complaining about teachers and how rubbish their teacher was for X subject. I don't want to see a situation where teaching standards fall because teachers don't know their subject. I had a student teacher last year just before the lockdown started, and for the first time I was amazed at how poor she was. Many will find their first teaching practice a steep learning curve in terms of classroom management and you give them leeway for that. But her lack of knowledge of basic science was shocking. Two weeks in I was wondering how much damage limitation I was going to have to implement to get my classes back up to speed. I can compare because she was doing the degree I hold.

With that second point in mind, one of the reasons students struggle in school is because their teachers are lacking. I had a shocking teacher for HL maths at LC, I taught myself as much as possible but it was difficult with every other subject. Managed a B3 in old money on the day and was delighted I'd even done that well all things considered. Then when I went into college maths I did really well, because my lecturers actually knew what they were doing and I was able to understand things and I now teach maths myself. But if you were to look at some of my grades in 5th/6th year in isolation you'd assume I was awful at it!

History Queen

I work with a lady who is an amazing History teacher. She didn't do History for her Leaving Cert. I think she said it wasn't offered in her school. Her commitmemt to picking up the subject in college is probably part of why she's such a good teacher. I've sat in on her classes when doing Teaching Practice, she has taught me a lot. The Leaving Certificate is not the full picture of anyone's capabilities.

Treppen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Oh the stats on this will be interesting! Wonder will it push towards or away from the desire for predicted grades

I wonder will the release of stats be held over for another few months.

Random sample

My leaving cert students are restless at this stage. They should be sitting their mocks next week, but instead they are sitting at home wondering what’s going to happen. They aren’t sure whether they should focus on orals that might not happen. They are asking me about tests they missed last year.

This isn’t fair.

The silence from Norma is deafening. There are no examiners recruited. It’s unbelievable that we are here again.

am_zarathustra

Maybe the SEC are flat out with this leaving cert nonsense and we will get more info after the meeting with all the stakeholders tomorrow. I really would struggle with predictive grades this year, they'd have to be sitting a rake of exams the minute we were back in the door! Even 50% predicted, 50% the exam would be great. I'd worry about these kids going to college with no real exams sat since they were in Christmas of 5th year for some

itrip

Well done Kieran (Asti), this week he's been excellent in media interviews...

Str8outtaWuhan

itrip wrote: »

Well done Kieran (Asti), this week he's been excellent in media interviews...

just watched that lad on prime time, he basically opened the door to PG by saying they will discuss other options is Traditional LC goes ahead.

French Toast

Random sample wrote: »

It’s unbelievable that we are here again.

The whole situation summed up in a sentence.

Predicted grades were announced early in May last year (iirc). That was LC 2020 signed and sealed. They've had since then to make a plan for LC 2021. Nine whole months to prepare for the inevitable and yet here we are.

There was a complete focus on getting schools open in September and keeping them that way. Incredibly short sighted approach from our minister and the DES.

Political optics were given priority over everything.

shesty

Who were they aiming for approval from by not making a backup plan though?Political optics doesn't really make sense, although you would hope the other likely option (incompetence...) wasn't it either.Surely they would realise the potential fallout from closures and no back up plan would be way worse than their approach of opening and no discussion of anything else.
It is beyond unbelievable we are here again.Complete failure.

amacca

shesty wrote: »

Who were they aiming for approval from by not making a backup plan though?Political optics doesn't really make sense, although you would hope the other likely option (incompetence...) wasn't it either.Surely they would realise the potential fallout from closures and no back up plan would be way worse than their approach of opening and no discussion of anything else.
It is beyond unbelievable we are here again.Complete failure.

They (politicians) didnt prioritise it I think. Norma was slotted in there to handle it (on the offchance she could) but ultimately as a firewall. If it gets really bad she can be forced to step down and they can limit the damage....she will either be a convenient scapegoat in this or teachers etc

I think they sacrificed it early on as something that was too complex to solve and probably would be problem no matter what they did... believing that a push to keep schools open to be seen to be doing that would suffice and effort put into vaccinations etc would pay off. Its always about optics and re-election (preserving power/influence) and it always was, why else open up before Christmas etc.

Treppen

itrip wrote: »

Well done Kieran (Asti), this week he's been excellent in media interviews...

And Andrew Phelan too !

carr62

Omg does anyone predict we will hear today of what's going to happen to LC? I know it's almost cliché at this stage about stress... but my son had an episode yesterday.....a complete fit of sobbing that he is unable to cope with trying to sit in one spot morning til night, with school, then homework, then study. On top of that trying to put the pieces of lessons together after getting constant disconnections. I was so shocked, as I thought he was coping as well as anyone. That's it now as far as I'm concerned. If he never sat the leaving cert, he is taking a break until we get some official word about what's going to happen. I hope we hear something today. Am I expecting too much?

Mrsmum

@carr62, yes, this leaving them in the dark is very cruel imo. As they say, nature abhors a vucuum and human nature, in stressful times, is prone to fill it with all kinds of worries and anxieties. Your son is not alone, know of many others struggling. As you say, you'd nearly get to the point where you couldn't care less and feel like throwing it all up in the air. I was sitting on the couch last night and my son lay down with his head on my lap. He is 18 and hasn't done that since he was a child. Looking for comfort I can only assume. He was saying to me that some schools haven't done their georgraphy practical yet and his school spend a whole month on it so if it's cut out, other schools have been using their time learning what his school hasn't. So many worries they have that are big and 'unfair' in their eyes. That's one of the problems I have with a state exam, schools have been operating differently from each other this year. I'm so sad my son is in the middle of this big mess.

rainbowtrout

carr62 wrote: »

Omg does anyone predict we will hear today of what's going to happen to LC? I know it's almost cliché at this stage about stress... but my son had an episode yesterday.....a complete fit of sobbing that he is unable to cope with trying to sit in one spot morning til night, with school, then homework, then study. On top of that trying to put the pieces of lessons together after getting constant disconnections. I was so shocked, as I thought he was coping as well as anyone. That's it now as far as I'm concerned. If he never sat the leaving cert, he is taking a break until we get some official word about what's going to happen. I hope we hear something today. Am I expecting too much?

Unfortunately yes. I doubt we'll hear anything today.

PoolDude

So frustrating for these students.

My son shared a few insights today when we were discussing it:

1. The principal had an assembly but effectively wasted their time as he couldn't give them any update expect to say the LC would likely go ahead as planned
2. The teachers are more understanding of the situation and supportive but by their own admission are rushing the curriculum to be able to say ' we got it all covered' but the students can't keep up and are not getting anything from it. Let's not forget a big part of the challenge here is not whether they can sit an exam safely in June but the amount of time lost on the curriculum.
3. The argument on no data for PG is not holding up as a survey of students showed the 87% had regular tests and 92% had Christmas 19, Summer 20 & Christmas 20 exams - so lots of data.
4. One teacher left his mic unmuted while the students were answering written questions and proceeded to ring the VP with speaker on and both undertook a conversation claiming students were just pulling the 'Mental Health Card' and showing very little desire to put any effort into PG or empathy for their students (one teacher and VP but not likely representative of teachers as a whole).
5. The school has not asked the students or parents for any input or opinion
6. I saw one tweet of a student claiming they'd jump of a cliff if there was no news today - I'm hoping its exaggerated for impact on that forum but mental health is a real issue here and I hope it doesn't come to that as a result of lack of decision making and clarity

I hope for all concerned there is news today.

am_zarathustra

I sympathize completely, my LC classes are fraying a the endges. Lots of chat needed to keep them calm and feeling connected. Gave them no work this weekend to relax and planning a few nice things before midterm for a boost.

The reality is they can't cancel the LC at this stage, they should just say 50/50, 50% of your grade comes from the teacher, 50% from the modified exam at the end (lots of extra choice)

Regardless if what happens, even if we have to go full PG then at least the kids would have a plan. The limbo is really dangerous for their mental health!

shesty

The lack of information and a definite date is giving me awful stress all, and I am only a working parent trying to homeschool.It is keepign me awake at night wondering how much longer I can survive this, vs how much longer I might HAVE to survive it. I can only imagine the stress LC students are under, it is all just so wrong.

As parents I would email your TDs and the National Parent's Council and everyone you can think of and keep telling them about the state of your kids and you.It might seem silly, and mightn't solve it alone, but if enough people keep applying pressure across the board it might push pressure overall to get it solved quicker.It's about keeping the issue fresh in their minds. Don't sit there enduring it in silence.

am_zarathustra

shesty wrote: »

The lack of information and a definite date is giving me awful stress all, and I am only a working parent trying to homeschool.It is keepign me awake at night wondering how much longer I can survive this, vs how much longer I might HAVE to survive it. I can only imagine the stress LC students are under, it is all just so wrong.

As parents I would email your TDs and the National Parent's Council and everyone you can think of and keep telling them about the state of your kids and you.It might seem silly, and mightn't solve it alone, but if enough people keep applying pressure across the board it might push pressure overall to get it solved quicker.It's about keeping the issue fresh in their minds. Don't sit there enduring it in silence.

Good advice, the more people pushing the sooner a plan will emerge.

solerina

I am amazed that the whole notion of predicted grades is still doing the rounds. I have loads of class tests done but these are based on one or two chapters so it’s very easy to get 80% + on those. What I don’t have is long 2 hrs + tests so I have no real idea of how my students would perform in a 3 hour exam which focussed on the entire course.
I am sure I am not the only. So I am telling my students and their parents that the LC will definitely go ahead.... am I guessing yes, but at least I am not building up their hopes of predictive grades or that we have loads to base these grades on when we were basically told last year to exclude regular class tests.

History Queen

Fresh from Carl o Brian

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/what-alternative-options-are-under-review-for-2021-leaving-cert-1.4471108?mode=amp

Random sample

History Queen wrote: »

Fresh from Carl o Brian

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/what-alternative-options-are-under-review-for-2021-leaving-cert-1.4471108?mode=amp

I can see problems with every option.

50/50, what if the teacher gives a grade completely different to what the candidate achieves on the actual exam?

Choice, does the teacher rate all students? What if a candidate rated at 60 does the exam and gets 80, do the rest of the class go up or does the 61 stay at 61?

As for wondering whether they would get examiners, surely if they’d advertised for them they would be able to give a concrete estimation of that? It’s shocking that they haven’t. I see no issue with having orals online and asking students to go into school for them.

I’m sure I have other issues too, but I can’t remember them right now.

mirrorwall14

History Queen wrote: »

Fresh from Carl o Brian

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/what-alternative-options-are-under-review-for-2021-leaving-cert-1.4471108?mode=amp

Glaring error in the middle implying they kept to keep the full marks awarded when they were taken away again

Random sample

Adapted exams won’t work, they can’t change the formate without doing a lot of work on it.

What about allowing them to count their best 3 exams for points as well as meeting all requirements for individual courses?

Treppen

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Regardless if what happens, even if we have to go full PG then at least the kids would have a plan. The limbo is really dangerous for their mental health!

Here is where I diverge with the "uncertainty" train of thought.

There's a LC course to be covered. That is the certainty.
Students should be told to Keep the head down while everyone else is losing theirs, do the work the teachers assign you as best you can just like every other LCs had to do in previous years.

What's the worst that can happen... You learn something that won't be examined!!

Only 2 options: Learn or don't.

It's the hysteria that's dangerous for mental health, not learning.

Wombatman

Treppen wrote: »

Here is where I diverge with the "uncertainty" train of thought.

There's a LC course to be covered. That is the certainty.
Students should be told to Keep the head down while everyone else is losing theirs, do the work the teachers assign you as best you can just like every other LCs had to do in previous years.

What's the worst that can happen... You learn something that won't be examined!!

Only 2 options: Learn or don't.

It's the hysteria that's dangerous for mental health, not learning.

I think it is a little more nuanced than that.

The LC is tough for every year and as a student, you want to make the most of your time and effort. Students are revising right now. If they had more information on what format the 'new' amended exam might look like, they could target their revision better and NOT learn something that won't be examined, which would be a disheartening waste of time.

This group of LCs are much worse off than last years. They lost a big chunk of last year. When they went back to school that were working under Covid restrictions. Now that are expected to spend every hour that God sends in their rooms focusing on and thinking about the LC.

The last thing they deserve is your learn or don't learn hard line, or your dismissal of the fact that all the change and uncertainty is upsetting for some.

indolent

Wombatman wrote: »

Now that are expected to spend every hour that God sends in their rooms focusing on and thinking about the LC.

They aren't expected to do this though. Considering the time that is "wasted" getting to/from school, attendance, assemblies etc. , students have the chance to finish their work at a decent hour. That is of course contingent on them not going on to twitter to vent their apparent frustration on having to sit a lc ...

Wombatman wrote: »

The last thing they deserve is your learn or don't learn hard line, or your dismissal of the fact that all the change and uncertainty is upsetting for some.

I would find the undue attention afforded to this subject by the media more upsetting.

And it is a tough and important lesson to learn. Lecturers won't be too bothered if you refuse to engage because it's upsetting.

Bobtheman

Given the increasing death that covid has brought it is amazing that such a huge media focus on the LC. We also have increasing waiting lists for cancer etc that will increase fatalities in various areas.

The LC should go ahead -delayed but should go ahead. Its possible-perhaps in July. Tweak the curriculum and go for it. Bring teachers in on a voluntary basis in June.
God knows the academic bar has been lowered year after year as it is.
I'm sure the day will arrive when colouring features on the JC

Wombatman

indolent wrote: »

They aren't expected to do this though. Considering the time that is "wasted" getting to/from school, attendance, assemblies etc. , students have the chance to finish their work at a decent hour. That is of course contingent on them not going on to twitter to vent their apparent frustration on having to sit a lc ...



I would find the undue attention afforded to this subject by the media more upsetting.

And it is a tough and important lesson to learn. Lecturers won't be too bothered if you refuse to engage because it's upsetting.

Nothing about their current experience, as LCs, matches a traditional year. The "wasted" time you talk about is taking the bus with their friends, socialising and having the craic, a key component in positive development. No sport, no mocks yet, no extra circular activities, no debs, no meeting up with their friends or parties. Healthy school life is about more than school work.

Of course some of them are going to find it tough. I'm much happier that this is acknowledged by media. Much better than turning a blind eye and firing off the mantra 'just get on with it'. I though we had moved on from sweeping things like this under the carpet.

I'm no fan of Bojo but when he cancelled the traditional GCSEs he said "it’s not possible or fair for all exams to go ahead this summer, as normal". While it may be possible and correct to go ahead with exams here, we need to ensure fairness to the student.

So far, the absence of communication, or miscommunication, and the obvious lack of planning and preparation is unfair on the student. Yes we are in the middle of a pandemic, but it wouldn't be difficult to serve the students better in this area.

mirrorwall14

I am very torn on this one to be honest.

Is there a cohort who don’t want to work and just want them cancelled? Yes.

Is there a cohort who are fine one way or the other? Yes

Is there a cohort who are finding covid very difficult, who suffered because they couldn’t access schooling or achieve to the best of their ability online and this constant uncertainty of more school closures making it even worse? Yes

It’s very difficult to find something that works for all.

But I know on a personal level I have seriously struggled with lockdown. I struggle to find the motivation each day. I am very lucky to be in a job that is paying me so I have to get up and work. I am lucky to have children so I have to keep going.

Spending every day studying in my room wouldn’t work right now for me. I would seriously struggle. And probably wouldn’t have worked for me at that age either to be honest.

But then again, there are the ones who are driving me nuts because they are jumping on the bandwagon as opposed to actually struggling. So I’m torn.