escooter & ebike regulation

novarock · 01-02-2021 5:38pm #1

Apologies if this is a duplicate - I couldn't see a thread suitable:

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/12185-government-approves-next-steps-for-escooter-and-ebike-legislation/

Finally some regulation for ebikes to come in line with the EU. It mentions higher power pedelecs - are these the ones that simon cowell crashed, or pedelecs that go beyond 25kmh?

magicbastarder · 01-02-2021 5:59pm

Legislation for the use of escooters
...
Tax, insurance and driving licenses will not be required.

sensible move, anyway.
another one to add to the list too, when people come up with 'the greens have done nothing in government' in six month's time.

8valve · 01-02-2021 6:42pm

Good news.

Regulation of ebikes, that are capable of exceeding the 25kmh assistance limit, as light mopeds makes sense, too.

Currently they are illegal to use on the roads here.

wonski · 01-02-2021 6:47pm

They need to be regulated one way or another, but the legislation has to be future proofed as there are some mad e bikes being made and they will get faster and faster.

Some products advertised as e bikes are really electric motorbikes with pedals. This has to be regulated.

Allowed, but regulated. And controlled.

novarock · 01-02-2021 7:10pm

wonski wrote: »

They need to be regulated one way or another, but the legislation has to be future proofed as there are some mad e bikes being made and they will get faster and faster.

Some products advertised as e bikes are really electric motorbikes with pedals. This has to be regulated.

Allowed, but regulated. And controlled.

Exactly, my hope is that its a bit more granular than 250W ebikes, and everything else after that...

MojoMaker · 01-02-2021 7:13pm

Good news on e-scooters too. Finally a move away from the limbo state they're in and the oft-mooted nonsense around tax and insurance :rolleyes:

magicbastarder · 01-02-2021 8:03pm

8valve wrote: »

Good news.

Regulation of ebikes, that are capable of exceeding the 25kmh assistance limit, as light mopeds makes sense, too.

Currently they are illegal to use on the roads here.

it's not that they're illegal to use, they're legal to use with licence, insurance, helmet, etc.; and there's no framework around all that (certainly with insurance anyway) so not possible to use legally in a practical sense. which i guess you could argue makes them illegal.
i assume that they'll just explicitly put them in the sub-50cc moped bracket.

magicbastarder · 01-02-2021 8:05pm

@OP, hope you don't mind, i changed the thread title; the main part of the news here for many people is in relation to e-scooters rather than e-bikes.

01-02-2021 9:20pm

The horse has long bolted in terms of the scooters. This time last year I'd see the odd one, now I see them daily. I'm at peace with them now for the most part, majority of the ones who ride the footpath seem to be giving way and using a bell you'll always have the odd AH. The piss poor lights on some of them if they even have them especially the rear ones bugs me.

Dutchy · 02-02-2021 6:09pm

Any idea as to when this new legislation with pass? I have my eye on the Xiaomi Mi Pro 2 - this news may make me pull the purchase trigger. Assume this model will be compliant with the new legislation?

magicbastarder · 02-02-2021 6:46pm

i'd say it'll be months away.

thund3rbird_ · 26-03-2021 2:12am

could be 6 months :eek::eek:

Proposed Electric Scooter Laws plus more info
https://goosed.ie/irelands-proposed-electric-scooter-laws/

link to legislation to track progress:
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2021/28/

monument · 26-03-2021 2:42am

thund3rbird_ wrote: »

could be 6 months :eek::eek:

Proposed Electric Scooter Laws plus more info
https://goosed.ie/irelands-proposed-electric-scooter-laws/

link to legislation to track progress:
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2021/28/

That seems to be a bandwagoning bill by the TD in question.

Scooters are to be legalised by the Minister for Transport on behalf of the Government via the Road Traffic (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which is currently at the pre-legislative scrutiny stage.

For the record: Electric bicycles with which the motor cuts off at 25km/h are already legal in Ireland by way of vehicle legislation and a finance act.

Peregrine · 26-03-2021 3:48am

Yep, it's the Road Traffic (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2019 you want.

Alan Farrell is just looking for some attention there. He knows that the government's bill is being brought to the Transport Committee but is trying to bring forward a private member's bill alongside it. He knows his bill won't get through before the government's bill but he will get to take some credit now and when the government's bill eventually gets through.

26-03-2021 3:49pm

Regarding the proposed power limit, 250w, for ebikes, what does that mean if you are, say, a bit on the big side i.e. is 250w perfect for someone with a BMI of 25, but totally crap for someone with a BMI of 40?

Might be a stupid question, but I have no understanding of what a 250w limit actually means when it coms to using the thing as I haven't had a chance to take a spin on one of these

mvt · 26-03-2021 4:40pm

If you have a BMI of 40 chances are the next thing you'll be travelling on is a hearse

Thelonious Monk · 26-03-2021 5:15pm

what regulations are we expecting to see on escooters? I would imagine they'll make hi vis and helmets and all that jazz compulsory?

FileNotFound · 26-03-2021 5:19pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

what regulations are we expecting to see on escooters? I would imagine they'll make hi vis and helmets and all that jazz compulsory?

I can imagine that anything running below 25kmh will be bound by bike rules and as you say helmet and high vis.

Those that go faster may end up in moped bracket - of course will be very hard to tell unless the gardai get lucky.

I have a ninebot, larger scooter, more stable and its daft listening to the talk around them, i can do 40kmh easy on my racer. The scooter is silly safe when you use it right.

magicbastarder · 26-03-2021 5:23pm

eamonn ryan has repeatedly stated he's no interestin making helmets compulsory for cyclists, and if the law is passed that e-scooters are limited to 25km/h, i like to think they'll be treated as equivalent in that sense.

FileNotFound · 26-03-2021 5:26pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

eamonn ryan has repeatedly stated he's no interestin making helmets compulsory for cyclists, and if the law is passed that e-scooters are limited to 25km/h, i like to think they'll be treated as equivalent in that sense.

They really don't go fast enough for it to be more than a gimmick - i can step off mine at close to top speed.

Will say the cycle paths being bad quality has taken on a whole new meaning and I have 10 inch inflatable tyres on my one, need to act like I am snowboarding - knees bent all the time to take the shocks out.

Peregrine · 26-03-2021 9:24pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

what regulations are we expecting to see on escooters? I would imagine they'll make hi vis and helmets and all that jazz compulsory?

This is what the Department were thinking about a month ago. The bill that will be published soon may include some changes and there will be changes at committee stage.

Permitted in all cycle lanes, bus lanes and contraflow bus lanes.
Not permitted on footpaths or motorways.
This one is controversial.. Not permitted on national roads unless there's a bus lane or cycle lane.
Use on greenways to be determined by local bye-laws.

Maximum design speed of 25 km/h.
No lower age limit determined yet but this could change.
High-vis and helmets "strongly recommended" but not mandatory.

baldbear · 07-04-2021 1:42pm

In my area loads of young guys, approx 15, were going around on bikes during 1st lockdown now after Xmas they are on escooters going from parks to playgrounds messing.

If you tell them to leave a playground and let kids play there they will tell you where to go. Then they move on and come back. Headwrecking.

KevRossi · 07-04-2021 2:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Regarding the proposed power limit, 250w, for ebikes, what does that mean if you are, say, a bit on the big side i.e. is 250w perfect for someone with a BMI of 25, but totally crap for someone with a BMI of 40?

Might be a stupid question, but I have no understanding of what a 250w limit actually means when it coms to using the thing as I haven't had a chance to take a spin on one of these

The wattage is the max the motor can put out. My bike (touring-city bike) has a Bosch system with 5 settings: Off, Eco, Tour, Sport and Turbo. So you are using either: 0 watts, 50w, 120w, 180w or 250w. (Not sure of the exact amount, but it gives you an idea)

With the motor at max (Turbo) you can cycle up anything, up the hill in Howth, or up the Sally Gap just spinning away like you were cycling an ordinary bike on the flat.

If you know Dublin, then I cycle from Drumcondra up to the Airport using Tour or Sport setting and I wouldn't break a sweat when wearing a jacket, shirt and jeans. I weigh over 100 kg FWIW.

Most of the time I'm in Off or Eco setting on the flat. At a red light I switch it to Tour just to get off the line. It just gives you an extra boost, a bit like pressing the accelerator on a car. Obviously the less you use then the more range you have between charges.

mvt wrote: »

If you have a BMI of 40 chances are the next thing you'll be travelling on is a hearse

I've a BMI of 36. I can run 10 Km in just under an hour with some prep, but do it in 1:10 3 nights a week. I can cycle 100 Km no issue on a cheap road bike, have done the Wicklow Way several times. I can do a 35 km mountain hike in a day, or walk 60 km on roads and on the flat in one day.

I'll outwalk, outrun and outcycle most people with a BMI below 25 including men half my age.

It's not a reflection of how fit you are, just how much you weight against your height. And I get a medical test done every 12 months, usually have marginally high cholesterol and marginally high sugar levels. I have a terrible diet.

07-04-2021 2:43pm

Thank you, I really appreciate all that info in your reply

Skill Magill · 18-05-2021 6:12am

What penalties can you currently get if you have a motor over 250w and a top speed in excess of 25km/h? Would I be at risk of getting points or losing my licence for no insurance? (I know there's no catagery for these type of vehicles on your licence)
I wouldn't mind a slap on the wrist or a small fine, but if it affects my current clean licence I'd have second thoughts

FileNotFound · 18-05-2021 8:01am

Skill Magill wrote: »

What penalties can you currently get if you have a motor over 250w and a top speed in excess of 25km/h? Would I be at risk of getting points or losing my licence for no insurance? (I know there's no catagery for these type of vehicles on your licence)
I wouldn't mind a slap on the wrist or a small fine, but if it affects my current clean licence I'd have second thoughts

There was a court case in Ennis there recently,

Fines etc. and someone in Rathfarnham got fixed penalty charge and points (no court I think)

It's all a bit stupid at the moment, tons about and just a few unlucky people have met a misery Garda on a bad day.

Judges should have more cop on though.

Del2005 · 18-05-2021 8:42am

Skill Magill wrote: »

What penalties can you currently get if you have a motor over 250w and a top speed in excess of 25km/h? Would I be at risk of getting points or losing my licence for no insurance? (I know there's no catagery for these type of vehicles on your licence)
I wouldn't mind a slap on the wrist or a small fine, but if it affects my current clean licence I'd have second thoughts

They are consider motorbikes so all the offences for using an uninsured vehicle. If we follow the UK route then they won't ever be legal and our traffic law is closer to the UK than Europe.

FileNotFound · 18-05-2021 8:44am

Del2005 wrote: »

They are consider motorbikes so all the offences for using an uninsured vehicle. If we follow the UK route then they won't ever be legal and our traffic law is closer to the UK than Europe.

Such nonsense. Thought the greens would have at least achieved some legislation on this by now.

Not sure what they are even doing in Gov at the moment - haven't seen anything on the transport side from them at least

magicbastarder · 18-05-2021 9:06am

FileNotFound wrote: »

haven't seen anything on the transport side from them at least

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/nta-allocates-over-e70m-in-new-funding-to-rural-councils-for-active-cycling-and-walking-infrastructure/
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4fc46-ministers-to-fund-up-to-248-new-posts-to-expand-walking-and-cycling-facilities-nationwide/
https://merrionstreet.ie/en/news-room/releases/50_million_walking_and_cycling_fund_announced_for_towns_and_villages.html
https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2021/2020/1013/1171372-budget2021-cycling-projects/

etc.
granted, the last one probably encompasses the first few.

FileNotFound · 18-05-2021 9:11am

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/nta-allocates-over-e70m-in-new-funding-to-rural-councils-for-active-cycling-and-walking-infrastructure/
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4fc46-ministers-to-fund-up-to-248-new-posts-to-expand-walking-and-cycling-facilities-nationwide/
https://merrionstreet.ie/en/news-room/releases/50_million_walking_and_cycling_fund_announced_for_towns_and_villages.html
https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2021/2020/1013/1171372-budget2021-cycling-projects/

etc.
granted, the last one probably encompasses the first few.

Fair enough - clearly missed a bit haha.

Macy0161 · 18-05-2021 9:39am

I'd say you'd have to be seriously over the limits to be pulled and/or acting the eejit, and then failed the "don't be a dick to the cop" to end up in court tbh.

FileNotFound · 18-05-2021 11:26am

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'd say you'd have to be seriously over the limits to be pulled and/or acting the eejit, and then failed the "don't be a dick to the cop" to end up in court tbh.

Seems a bit like that - chap done in ennis was told to stop using it on the pavement by Gardai and then went and used it on the pavement again in front of them.

I've been suing mine all year no issue

Tigerandahalf · 18-05-2021 2:13pm

I am seeing a lot more escooters about.
Some lads are on footpaths and are really going too fast coming up to corners. Not sure if they have a protector in case they run into somebody.

I saw another lad on a public road with 2 or 3 cars behind him.

I'd imagine they would be very popular for hire on the greenways.

FileNotFound · 18-05-2021 2:20pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I am seeing a lot more escooters about.
Some lads are on footpaths and are really going too fast coming up to corners. Not sure if they have a protector in case they run into somebody.

I saw another lad on a public road with 2 or 3 cars behind him.

I'd imagine they would be very popular for hire on the greenways.

They should really be in bike lanes (how they are used in other countries, treated like a bike)

Most can hit 25kmh but can stop in a couple of metres so are good at avoiding any collision.

Even on the road they go as quick as most cyclists so they are not really any more of a hindrance to a motorist.

Would never use on a pavement.

Tigerandahalf · 18-05-2021 3:18pm

I wonder what would happen if a car hit someone on the road with a scooter. Bit of a grey area given that they are not legal yet.

Great little device though. Hopefully they will sort out the legal issues.

FileNotFound · 18-05-2021 3:32pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I wonder what would happen if a car hit someone on the road with a scooter. Bit of a grey area given that they are not legal yet.

Great little device though. Hopefully they will sort out the legal issues.

Never considered it to be fair, I am sure there is some precedent with all the kids going round on scramblers....

Probably a case of no problem for the driver assuming they were following the rules of the road.

Del2005 · 19-05-2021 11:22am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I wonder what would happen if a car hit someone on the road with a scooter. Bit of a grey area given that they are not legal yet.

Great little device though. Hopefully they will sort out the legal issues.

It'd be the same for the car driver, you can't hit a person because they are breaking the law. But any payments will be reduced based on the person using an illegal MPV, along with possible prosecution.

Macy0161 · 19-05-2021 12:38pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I wonder what would happen if a someone driving a car hit someone on the road with a scooter. Bit of a grey area given that they are not legal yet.

FYP.

But the driver of the car still hit something on the road. It'd be up to the court decide (then it would probably depend on helmet and builders jacket).

vimalandrew · 26-08-2021 10:43pm

I can see a lot of escooter advertisements in Irish websites. I would like to buy a Xiaomi escooter with range 40km for 549 euros and would like to commute from Tallaght to Dublin everyday for work. Is it legal or do I need to take tax, insurance etc.. as of now. I think I saw a lot of people using this stuff.

26-08-2021 11:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808541#Comment_117808541

Still illegal at the moment

Well... as mentioned its a bit of mess regarding legality

It's classed as mechanically propelled so requires tax, insurance etc, but there are no companies who will insure you

26-08-2021 11:45pm

Chances of having it seized now vs a few years ago slim to none unless acting the bollix on a scooter. I'd be interested in how long these last in terms of wear and tear and battery charges as I couldn't tell you where you could have one serviced or if they can be at all where as with a bike it's easy. So the 549 for a scooter seems like a good deal but if it can't be readily and cheaply serviced with spares etc and you have to throw it out a buy again after a failure then not so good on the pocket and the environment which I see is an issue with the scooter rental schemes as far away as china and as close as liverpool.

jill_valentine · 27-08-2021 2:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117808832#Comment_117808832

Bike shops will change the little tyres etc and many keep them in stock. Halfords offer actual servicing after that, but I happened to be enquiring near Christmas and was told they wouldn't be able to fit me in until late January, so I can't vouch for the quality of the service or the lead time under normal circumstances.

I'm aware of a collect and repair service operating in Dublin somewhere but the name escapes me at the moment.

All that said - a big part of the reason the Xiaomi M365 in particular tends to be recommended as an entry level one is because parts and tutorials to service them yourself are very easy to find. Maybe a bit slower to get parts now Aliexpress takes a bit longer and gets taxed, but they have every conceivable part there, and Youtube will tell you how to install it (pretty much the only thing you won't be able to do yourself with the right parts/tools is installing solid tyres, if you want those).

The M365 is basically the Ford Mondeo of escooters.

TomOnBoard · 29-08-2021 11:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116815783#Comment_116815783

Great response.. I see most of the reviews out of the US castigating European 250watt limits. I see their point in the context of the amount of weight that can be propelled (particularly from rest) by a particular motor. I'd have no issue at all with a speed limit, but I do have an issue with limiting the power. Even if you only look at range, according to the Bosch e-bike calculator, if you double the weight (incl bike etc), you reduce the range by a third. It stands to reason that the 140kg (fully loaded incl bike) is going to be way less powerful and usefully assisted than the 70kg equivalent. I would have thought that the 140kg unit would need a 500w motor ti provide the same performance as a 250w motor pushing 70kg. By all means, both machines should be speed limited to 25kph for safety, but hobbling one person's enjoyment / utility by an arbitrary number on a motor seems very unfair.

Joe1919 · 31-08-2021 11:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117821256#Comment_117821256

If you read the proposed (and European) legislation, the 250 W refers to 'maximum continuous rated power'. So in practice, peak powers can be double this at certain points on the power graph. This characteristic can be optimized to suit say heavy riders. To give a concrete example, woosh bikes(uk) have got (european) approval for their gran-camino bike that is suitable on road for riders up to 25 stone (156kg). The bike has very strong motor and controller is rated at 20 amp and 36volts which equates to 720 w input power and this should give well over 500w mechanical power at the wheel (at say 70% efficency). So its just a question of the right bike becoming available. (imo)

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?gran-camino

FileNotFound · 01-09-2021 10:47am

Kinda shocked that we are still awaiting legislation for this. Greens were bleating on about it since Jan.

Given the impact of covid on using public transport and how these are regulated in many nations already it's a bit of a farce.

25km/h as max speed propulsion device can achieve would be fine, then as they become even more popular post regulation, improved infrastructure can be justified.

I've been using my escooter for a year now and it is great, saves the car doing short trips or trips through traffic in town.

TomOnBoard · 01-09-2021 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830899#Comment_117830899

I really wish I had stayed longer in Physics class so I could understand these things better... 🤔😣😮

magicbastarder · 01-09-2021 5:52pm

To give a concrete example, woosh bikes(uk) have got (european) approval for their gran-camino bike that is suitable on road for riders up to 25 stone (156kg). The bike has very strong motor and controller is rated at 20 amp and 36volts which equates to 720 w input power and this should give well over 500w mechanical power at the wheel

why don't they mention this in the FAQ on their main page? or make it easy to find on the site (i've not found it)

Joe1919 · 01-09-2021 8:56pm

The important information on e bike maximum power is the controller current and this multiplied by the battery voltage gives the motor electrical power. Both are shown on their website. You have to figure out the rest yourself. The mechanical power will be less due to inefficiency. If you want this spelled out more clearly, Halfords show on their manual for the Pendleton their ' Nominal Power' of 250W and their 'maximum motor power' of 400W for that model (page 5, or 6 on pdf.) https://washford.a.bigcontent.io/v1/static/Somerby%20E%20Bodo%20Workshop%20Manual

I have attached a copy of EN15194 that explains this. Its quite complicated but page 18 (21 on pdf) graph clearly shows the maximum power (Pmax) to be more than the 250w Pcr. (power continuous rated)

EN15194.pdf

TomOnBoard · 01-09-2021 8:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834035#Comment_117834035

I couldn't find it either.. Its still a 250w motor so my previous observations regarding the use of a theoretical rating apply.

Limit it to maximum speed and leave it at that.. In motoring parlance, its like giving ppl the freedom to buy a 0-60 6 second car or a 0-60 12 second car, without nanny-state interference, but legislating that no car shall exceed the posted speed limit.

magicbastarder · 01-09-2021 9:14pm

i guess what Joe1919 is getting at is similar to the (confusing to someone who doesn't have experience with it) difference between RMS power and 'music' power when talking about speakers and amplifiers.

i'm very wary about arguments about raising the limits on the regulations that are currently in place for e-bikes. not that i think a 500w limit would lead to carnage on our roads, more so that it could lead to changes being used as a trojan horse to change other regulations - e.g. 'oh, well, now that e-bikes can use 750W motors, we'll mandate the use of helmets etc.'.

for the majority of people, 250W seems fine (i am a fairly fit cyclist and being able to sustain 250W is a dream)', and i think they have started examining (or have already allowed) higher power motors for cargo bikes?

TomOnBoard · 01-09-2021 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834994#Comment_117834994

The inherent complexity and arbitrary nature of the use of such a rating is exactly the reason why it should not be part of a regulation! Non-compliance or compliance with such a regulation will be extremely hard to assess by anyone in law enforcement, if mere electrically un-educated mortals like myself find it hard to understand. Arguments in courts by prosecution and/or defence will be impossible for anyone but elecbatterytrical engineers to comprehend. If my e-bike uses a beefy motor on a low amp (say 10) controller & low voltage battery (say 24v), is my motor a 240w motor? And if I use the same motor with a 20 amp controller, do I now have a 480w motor? (leave efficiency out of it for now as a 70% efficiency issue will apply to both..

escooter & ebike regulation

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