Advertisement
Boards Golf Society are looking for new members for 2022...read about the society and their planned outings here!
How to add spoiler tags, edit posts, add images etc. How to - a user's guide to the new version of Boards

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

134689362

Comments



  • But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

    Arguably Suez was a much greater crisis for both the UK and France geopolitically than Brexit.

    Suez marked a very public and permanent relegation of Britain and France as global powers (militarily, economically and politically) in their own right.

    Whilst France have adapted and found global strength via it's leading role in the EU, as had the UK as the leading NATO nation within the EU but the UK has now chosen to to (self inflict this time) another very public and permanent relegation to an even lower tier of influence via Brexit.
    The three day week was a greater crisis for the UK, if you want to contextualize it more domestically.

    The 1970's three day week in the UK brought in by Edward Heath lasted about 10 week.

    I reckon the effects of Brexit will be a lot deeper and last a lot longer.




  • But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

    Arguably Suez was a much greater crisis for both the UK and France geopolitically than Brexit. The three day week was a greater crisis for the UK, if you want to contextualize it more domestically.

    The 'blue passports' issue exemplifies Brexit: a lack of knowledge of EU law (it permits different national passport colours) leads to a pointless symbolic gesture, creates extra business in the EU (the passports are printed in the EU), makes movement between the UK and EU more difficult, but gives Northern Ireland an escape clause, as people from there can still claim citizenship of an EU member state.

    It would be hard to pick a better example that encapsulates all of the negatives of Brexit in one go.

    Brexit threatens the break-up of the British state itself.

    It's a far greater existential threat to the UK than the loss of empire or diminshed global power, and far more likely to do lasting economic harm than the three-day week.

    The UK is the new Italy for FDI.

    EslRTS-WMAYazP9.jpg

    https://unctad.org/webflyer/global-investment-trend-monitor-no-38

    It also says something about the lack of importance of Northern Ireland within the UK that the three-day week can be seen as more harmful than the Troubles violence prevalent in the early 1970s.

    Back to passports: it's possible that British passports won't exist at all in a few years because of Brexit.




  • The 'blue passports' issue exemplifies Brexit: a lack of knowledge of EU law (it permits different national passport colours)leads to a pointless symbolic gesture, creates extra business in the EU (the passports are printed in the EU), makes movement between the UK and EU more difficult, but gives Northern Ireland an escape clause, as people from there can still claim citizenship of an EU member state.

    It would be hard to pick a better example that encapsulates all of the negatives of Brexit in one go.

    Brexit threatens the break-up of the British state itself.

    It's a far greater existential threat to the UK than the loss of empire or diminshed global power, and far more likely to do lasting economic harm than the three-day week.

    The UK is the new Italy for FDI.

    EslRTS-WMAYazP9.jpg

    https://unctad.org/webflyer/global-investment-trend-monitor-no-38

    It also says something about the lack of importance of Northern Ireland within the UK that the three-day week can be seen as more harmful than the Troubles violence prevalent in the early 1970s.

    Back to passports: it's possible that British passports won't exist at all in a few years because of Brexit.

    It's not pointless if it gives the UK a renewed sense of self, and the rest of your points are verifiably untrue. The colour of the document does not make movement more difficult, nor does it give NI an escape clause.

    But yeah blue passports is a remark used to demonstrate an intellectual superiority. It doesn't go any deeper than that. It doesn't add anything to the discussion.

    It won't be Brexit that breaks the UK - both NI and Scotland have been walking towards the exit lobby for decades. You might remember that Scotland was at the door already, but pissed itself and went back to London. If the nationalist movements are successful, it will be down to over half a century of underinvestment and central government neglect rather than Brexit.

    The nationalists may well attempt to use Brexit as their lever, but if that didn't happen, they would use something else. I really doubt the SNP would've just given up if the UK had backed remain.




  • British citizens who want to buy property in some parts of Spain, designated by law as sensitive military areas, will have to get permission from the Spanish military now that the UK has left the EU and become a third country.

    EsmBA6QXUAEOQD5.jpg

    https://murciatoday.com/brexit-collides-with-1978-military-law-in-spain-british-housebuyers-must-now-obtain-military-permit_1552969-a.html




  • British citizens who want to buy property in some parts of Spain, designated by law as sensitive military areas, will have to get permission from the Spanish military now that the UK has left the EU and become a third country.

    EsmBA6QXUAEOQD5.jpg

    https://murciatoday.com/brexit-collides-with-1978-military-law-in-spain-british-housebuyers-must-now-obtain-military-permit_1552969-a.html

    That article overblows the issue - like a lot of issues surrounding Brexit. It is literally in no one's interest to delay sales, buyer, seller or government. There will be pressure on all sides to streamline the process for property sales.

    There are big issues with SPS that are unlikely to be resolved soon, but this is a genuine teething issue that will be fixed.


  • Advertisement


  • breezy1985 wrote: »
    Is it possible that once the media glare dies down the UK can do a load of little individual deals which will essentially make them an EFTA without people noticing ?

    LOL I had to take a double take there as at first glance I didn't see the UK off in the corner. Great graphic really one of those classic a picture is worth a thousand words cliche moments.




  • It's not pointless if it gives the UK a renewed sense of self, and the rest of your points are verifiably untrue. The colour of the document does not make movement more difficult, nor does it give NI an escape clause.

    But yeah blue passports is a remark used to demonstrate an intellectual superiority. It doesn't go any deeper than that. It doesn't add anything to the discussion.

    It won't be Brexit that breaks the UK - both NI and Scotland have been walking towards the exit lobby for decades. You might remember that Scotland was at the door already, but pissed itself and went back to London. If the nationalist movements are successful, it will be down to over half a century of underinvestment and central government neglect rather than Brexit.

    The nationalists may well attempt to use Brexit as their lever, but if that didn't happen, they would use something else. I really doubt the SNP would've just given up if the UK had backed remain.

    A renewed sense of self for the UK? Not exactly.

    Esb6QkzW8AA_P3Y.jpg

    https://mobile.twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/1353043741813202944

    Nobody has ever claimed that the colour of the document makes movement more difficult and certainly not me. 'Blue passports' is shorthand for 'British passports are no longer EU passports'.

    People from Northern Ireland do have an escape clause from having to use British passports; they can use Irish passports.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/apply-for-irish-passport-if-you-can-advises-dup-mp-ian-paisley-34835231.html

    The SNP and NI nationalists wouldn't have given up on leaving the UK even if Brexit hadn't happened?

    So what?

    The polls have swung towards independence and reunification because of Brexit.

    If not for Brexit, neither would have seen the increases in support seen in the past few years.

    The term 'blue passports' is used to illustrate the negatives of Brexit rather than literally attacking the colour of British passports; nobody gives a flying fúck about what colour they are. It's what they represent, primarily a lack of knowledge of the EU and above all, making movement more difficult.




  • That article overblows the issue - like a lot of issues surrounding Brexit. It is literally in no one's interest to delay sales, buyer, seller or government. There will be pressure on all sides to streamline the process for property sales.

    There are big issues with SPS that are unlikely to be resolved soon, but this is a genuine teething issue that will be fixed.

    Well... No. This is absolutely not "genuine teething issues".

    The article states that this law has been used multiple times in the past to limit purchases from non-EU citizens/corporations. The application of this to purchases made by UK citizens is simply the new reality facing the UK now they are not schengen or EU members. There are no surprises here, no unanticipated consequences, no teething issues.

    Will Spain eventually repeal this law? Maybe? That's definitely outside the bounds of "teething problems" though.




  • That article overblows the issue - like a lot of issues surrounding Brexit. It is literally in no one's interest to delay sales, buyer, seller or government. There will be pressure on all sides to streamline the process for property sales.

    There are big issues with SPS that are unlikely to be resolved soon, but this is a genuine teething issue that will be fixed.

    More denial. Read the article. This is the law in Spain. It's applied to all property purchases in the designated zones by third-country nationals, now including British citizens.

    The world doesn't revolve around Britain. Neither the EU nor Spain will change their laws just because British people and business find life more difficult after Brexit.

    I've always maintained that Brexit is a fantasy.

    The inability to deal with its consequences in reality, the fantasy that the rules will be changed specially for Britain, all highlight the fantasy-based ideology behind it.

    If the UK government can accept the reality that Brexit makes interactions between the EU and the UK more difficult, it might seek a closer relationship with the EU, participation in the EEA Agreement or a Swiss-style relationship.

    But that's not going to happen until fantasy gives way to reality.




  • moon2 wrote: »
    Well... No. This is absolutely not "genuine teething issues".

    The article states that this law has been used multiple times in the past to limit purchases from non-EU citizens/corporations. The application of this to purchases made by UK citizens is simply the new reality facing the UK now they are not schengen or EU members. There are no surprises here, no unanticipated consequences, no teething issues.

    Will Spain eventually repeal this law? Maybe? That's definitely outside the bounds of "teething problems" though.

    The law in its present form has been in force since 1978.

    The idea that the British are so special and important to the EU and its individual members ('They need us more than we need them', 'We hold all the cards', 'German car makers') that special accommodation will be made is evidently still alive and well, despite the daily facts on the ground.

    You can't even legally bring a ham sandwich into the EU from Britain because of Brexit.

    Why would you think that buying a house in a sensitive military zone is going to be as easy now as it was before Brexit?


  • Advertisement


  • The law in its present form has been in force since 1978.

    The idea that the British are so special and important to the EU and its individual members ('They need us more than we need them', 'We hold all the cards', 'German car makers') that special accommodation will be made is evidently still alive and well, despite the daily facts on the ground.

    You can't even legally bring a ham sandwich into the EU from Britain because of Brexit.

    Why would you think that buying a house in a sensitive military zone is going to be as easy now as it was before Brexit?

    And why do you think it won't be changed if to change it will suit all parties? Did you know that all foreign nationals had to get ministerial approval in Ireland for property purchases up until I think 20 years ago? We changed the rules to make investments and purchases easier for foreign nationals because it was in our interest.

    There is a huge property industry in the south of Spain that actively markets to the UK. A good number of jobs depends on this market and it brings in taxes and revenue particularly in the off season. I wouldn't expect the Spanish to abandon their law, but when agents and officials are interacting with it more regularly they will get more used to the process and allow it to happen faster. This is of course setting aside the lobbying for easing for the UK that will come from the Spanish property sector itself.

    Is not about them needing us more than we need them, it's about the economic reality on the ground in these regions.




  • Igotadose wrote: »
    Do you seriously think this clownshower of a government would have had the legislation in place on 1/1/2021? They can barely string a sentence together.

    Be patient. It will happen. They'll be sly about it, like most governments, but it'll happen.

    I really think the idea that workers rights are going to be eroded to any extent or that dangerous foods will be present on UK shelves in the term of this government are pretty unrealistic.

    As somebody for whom a 60 hour work week would be considered short though, I do not see minor changes to the work time legislation as an 'erosion of workers rights'




  • I really think the idea that workers rights are going to be eroded to any extent or that dangerous foods will be present on UK shelves in the term of this government are pretty unrealistic.

    As somebody for whom a 60 hour work week would be considered short though, I do not see minor changes to the work time legislation as an 'erosion of workers rights'

    How much of your 60+ hours is by choice and how much do you get paid for it.

    60+ on minimum behind a bar or coffee machine with no overtime doesn't sound too good




  • And why do you think it won't be changed if to change it will suit all parties? Did you know that all foreign nationals had to get ministerial approval in Ireland for property purchases up until I think 20 years ago? We changed the rules to make investments and purchases easier for foreign nationals because it was in our interest.

    There is a huge property industry in the south of Spain that actively markets to the UK. A good number of jobs depends on this market and it brings in taxes and revenue particularly in the off season. I wouldn't expect the Spanish to abandon their law, but when agents and officials are interacting with it more regularly they will get more used to the process and allow it to happen faster. This is of course setting aside the lobbying for easing for the UK that will come from the Spanish property sector itself.

    Is not about them needing us more than we need them, it's about the economic reality on the ground in these regions.
    The Brits are being replaced by Swedes, Polish etc..

    UK retirees will have to meet the same income and health insurance tests as all non EU.




  • And why do you think it won't be changed if to change it will suit all parties? Did you know that all foreign nationals had to get ministerial approval in Ireland for property purchases up until I think 20 years ago? We changed the rules to make investments and purchases easier for foreign nationals because it was in our interest.

    There is a huge property industry in the south of Spain that actively markets to the UK. A good number of jobs depends on this market and it brings in taxes and revenue particularly in the off season. I wouldn't expect the Spanish to abandon their law, but when agents and officials are interacting with it more regularly they will get more used to the process and allow it to happen faster. This is of course setting aside the lobbying for easing for the UK that will come from the Spanish property sector itself.

    Is not about them needing us more than we need them, it's about the economic reality on the ground in these regions.

    'to suit all parties'. Pretty arrogant assumption that it would suit all parties to change this law. You can ask the Spanish military if it would suit them if you like:
    CHIEF OF DEFENSE STAFF (CHOD)
    Welcoming words by Air General Miguel Ángel Villarroya
    ...

    Calle Vitruvio 1, 28006 Madrid, SPAIN (+34) 91 745 52 00

    https://emad.defensa.gob.es/en/emad/

    The restricted zones are in limited areas. There's no ban on third country nationals buying property in those areas. The existing restrictions make it harder for British citizens. I sincerely doubt that extra hassle for Brits in a few areas is going to cause any particular hardship for the economies of these regions.




  • An interesting article about the impact on the British music business that goes a bit beyond visa requirements for performers:
    https://musiceducation.global/uk-government-has-wilfully-thrown-the-live-music-sector-under-the-big-red-brexit-bus/

    I suppose more relocation to the EU.




  • embraer170 wrote: »
    An interesting article about the impact on the British music business that goes a bit beyond visa requirements for performers:
    https://musiceducation.global/uk-government-has-wilfully-thrown-the-live-music-sector-under-the-big-red-brexit-bus/

    I suppose more relocation to the EU.

    Temporary imports of instruments, sound and lighting equipment and so on are a pain and require ATA Carnets which are complex to deal with.

    Then there are restrictions on British trucks operating in the EU (and vice versa), with limitations on the numbers of loads they can deliver per trip.




  • This shouldn't come as much of a surprise to anyone...
    Credit ratings agency Moody’s, which assesses organisations’ and states’ abilities to pay their debts, says a trade deal struck between Brussels and London on Christmas Eve is skewed in the EU’s favour.

    Benedicte Andries, Moody’s analyst and co-writer of the report, says “while the Brexit agreement avoids a no-deal scenario, it largely lacks substance in areas vital to the UK economy, such as services”.

    As a result, he says the UK economy will be significantly smaller over the longer term.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/credit-analysts-say-uk-economy-will-shrink-as-brexit-deal-lacks-substance-1.4467228





  • What surprises me is you would take any notice of such a discredited company,as illustrated in this link.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/14/moodys-864m-penalty-for-ratings-in-run-up-to-2008-financial-crisis




  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    What surprises me is you would take any notice of such a discredited company,as illustrated in this link.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/14/moodys-864m-penalty-for-ratings-in-run-up-to-2008-financial-crisis

    To be fair, I don't think that are wrong this time. Any deal that excluded financial services, let alone services in general was always going to be considered as one that was in the EUs favour. Add in the terrible rules of origin on reexporting and remanufacturing and it's quite clear, even to a non trade expert, that is a fairly poor deal for the UK.


  • Advertisement


  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    What surprises me is you would take any notice of such a discredited company,as illustrated in this link.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/14/moodys-864m-penalty-for-ratings-in-run-up-to-2008-financial-crisis
    Rather than just shouting "look over there" do you want to highlight the flaws or inaccuracies in what they're claiming?




  • I was just on Twitter and some cheese makers were saying they can longer export to NI from England because of the paperwork involved because of brexit. Some of the replies are baffling though. Either the majority of people in the UK knew the issues that would arise and decided to ignore them, or they didn’t know and now are having an awful moment of realisation that they were sold a pup by the people in charge of their country.




  • Rather than just shouting "look over there" do you want to highlight the flaws or inaccuracies in what they're claiming?

    I personally feel at less than a month its far too early to call the winners and loosers in brexit. I merely pointed out in my post that the outfit you quoted are discredited.




  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    I personally feel at less than a month its far too early to call the winners and loosers in brexit. I merely pointed out in my post that the outfit you quoted are discredited.
    The UK-Japan trade deal is skewed 80/20 in Japan's favour. As (eventually) admitted by Liz Truss. You think this one is better?




  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    I personally feel at less than a month its far too early to call the winners and loosers in brexit. I merely pointed out in my post that the outfit you quoted are discredited.
    If you believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see then empty shelves in UK supermarkets and more Irish ferries being switched to direct continent routes speaks volumes.




  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    I personally feel at less than a month its far too early to call the winners and loosers in brexit.
    Do you still think that by erecting trade barriers between you and your biggest market will create anything other than a massive loss?
    Seriously? :confused:

    Brexit was never going to create any winners. It was an utterly stupid proposal carried out with little concern for the inevitable consequences purely to satisfy some jingoistic nonsense about sovereignty.
    However, for the people if the UK, there are no positives from Brexit, that I'm aware of, that have stood up to any kind of scrutiny. In fact, Brexit looks like it may be the catalyst that finally breaks up the UK (which is a positive (NI), I'll grant you that!)




  • This could be fun. A group of German lawyers claim the the TCA is a 'mixed agreement'. If they're right and the CJEU agrees, the agreement would need to be ratified by each of the 27 member states individually.

    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/brexit-handelsabkommen-warum-der-deal-juristisch-auf-wackligen-beinen-steht-a-227a2740-dcc8-46c3-bc7b-c7183b6bf615-amp




  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    I personally feel at less than a month its far too early to call the winners and loosers in brexit. I merely pointed out in my post that the outfit you quoted are discredited.

    If one, admittedly significant, bad news story is sufficient to cause Moodys to be discredited, at what point do all the bad news stories about the UKs handling of Brexit discredit the UK?




  • However, for the people if the UK, there are no positives from Brexit, that I'm aware of, that have stood up to any kind of scrutiny. In fact, Brexit looks like it may be the catalyst that finally breaks up the UK (which is a positive (NI), I'll grant you that!)

    If you are a conservative English nationalist, the breakup of the UK is the positive. If it was just Emgland and Wales, the Tories would be in power for the next 20 years unopposed. That is plenty time for them to finally carry out their policies, and they wouldnt have to pay lip service to the red wall. That is the real benefit of Brexit, for those sorts of people.


  • Advertisement


  • If you are a conservative English nationalist, the breakup of the UK is the positive. If it was just Emgland and Wales, the Tories would be in power for the next 20 years unopposed. That is plenty time for them to finally carry out their policies, and they wouldnt have to pay lip service to the red wall. That is the real benefit of Brexit, for those sorts of people.

    I think even conservative English nationalists balk at the idea of Scotland heading off. There's an ownership mentality there. You'd find few that would agree to let it go Even for continued Tory rule. It's again a case of cherry picking and wanting to have it all.


Advertisement