We have updated our Privacy Notice, you can read the updated document here
Mods please check the Moderators Group for an important update on Mod tools. If you do not have access to the group, please PM Niamh. Thanks!

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

12357281

Comments

  • #2


    dolanbaker wrote: »
    The 1970s a time of powerful unions not afraid to flex their muscles at any time and a Labour government that kept on giving, until they couldn't and brought in the IMF.
    Set up the stage perfectly for the Thatcher revolution, which allowed all the jobs to go east!

    I think the problems in the 1970s UK was a bit more complex than that. A few decades of under investment in the UK manufacturing, plus a poor education system, creeping automation, and a very deep division between the two political parties, plus a huge national debt resulting from the WW II costs not being forgiven, or paid off. As well as that, huge errors in managing the economy led to the UK auto industry making cars nobody wanted, the coal industry running out of coal, the shipbuilding being uncompetitive, etc.

    In fact, uncompetitive sums up the whole scene in 70s Britain. No Gov could solve the problems without swingeing austerity. Thatcher delivered that, and basically shut down most of GB north of Watford. Of course, her friends in the City had huge tax cuts to keep them onside.


  • #2


    I saw a great analysis of the Marshall Plan investment in Europe post WW2, France spent it on transport links and a massive programme of energy independence via Nuclear Power, Germany spent it on rebuilding manufacturing, the UK used it to build up financial services and attempt to maintain the GBP as the world currency. It lead to British manufacturing being massively behind the times and so couldn't compete on quality as the cheaper end moved out East.


  • #2


    But the UK is a strong independent country who don't need no EU ?

    Next you'll be telling me the UK won't benefit from new EU consumer protections. Little costs but they add up over time.

    It's another one of the costs of Brexit



    But hey, blue passports !

    These kind of glib posts add nothing to the discussion tbh.


  • #2


    These kind of glib posts add nothing to the discussion tbh.

    Kind of hard not to be glib when looking at the mess Brexit is.


  • #2


    Kind of hard not to be glib when looking at the mess Brexit is.

    There is nothing interesting with endless "I told you so" posts. Is like we haven't moved on from 2016 in many cases.

    Yeah, it's a mess, the how and the why of it is a lot more interesting than self righteous posting. At least that can be engaged with.


  • #2


    These kind of glib posts add nothing to the discussion tbh.

    Mod: If you have a problem with a post, report it please. Don't backseat moderate.


  • #2


    mrunsure wrote: »
    You'll have to show me. I have looked and looked but can't find it.

    There's this for starters; non-lucrative visa first, then apply for permanent residency:
    How to apply for Spanish residence in Spain
    Remember, if you are from a non-European Union country and are not married to a European Union citizen, you will need a visa before you get the Spanish residency card (one of the most common visas is the Spanish non-lucrative visa).

    You can continue from there if you like.


  • #2


    There is nothing interesting with endless "I told you so" posts. Is like we haven't moved on from 2016 in many cases.

    Yeah, it's a mess, the how and the why of it is a lot more interesting than self righteous posting. At least that can be engaged with.
    Brexit is the biggest geopolitical event in western Europe since 1945, and of the whole continent since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

    For Ireland it's probably the biggest economic realignment ever, the insularity of the GB economic drift being in direct proportion of Ireland's increased trade growth beyond our neighbour.

    This is going to have a huge societal impact as we get more direct exposure to the continent while lessening our Irish Sea ties.

    Observing that drift and checking off the predictions is not an exercise in self righteousness. What Irish businesses eschewed preparing for Brexit lest they thought they'd be seen as glouting?


  • #2


    There is nothing interesting with endless "I told you so" posts. Is like we haven't moved on from 2016 in many cases.

    Yeah, it's a mess, the how and the why of it is a lot more interesting than self righteous posting. At least that can be engaged with.

    The how and the why isn't hard to grasp.

    Morons voted for a moronic thing with a moronic outcome because they listened to morons.

    What more is there to say about how and why Brexit happened?

    As for the outcomes, what's wrong with posting examples of the real-world consequences of Brexit after 4.5 years of listening to shrill 'Project Fear' denials?

    Apart from showing just how Brexit is affecting trade and investment, they can be used to illustrate why leaving a single market and a customs union after decades is a moronic idea.

    Here's a particularly vivid example. The obscenity of this in a society where millions rely on foodbanks, where a reluctant government has to be dragged kicking and screaming into handing out food parcels (that cost £30 but contain £5 worth of food) to kids by a football player.

    Esk6TvqXAAEIFXb.jpg


  • #2


    yagan wrote: »
    Brexit is the biggest geopolitical event in western Europe since 1945, and of the whole continent since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

    For Ireland it's probably the biggest economic realignment ever, the insularity of the GB economic drift being in direct proportion of Ireland's increased trade growth beyond our neighbour.

    This is going to have a huge societal impact as we get more direct exposure to the continent while lessening our Irish Sea ties.

    Observing that drift and checking off the predictions is not an exercise in self righteousness. What Irish businesses eschewed preparing for Brexit lest they thought they'd be seen as glouting?

    Interesting piece in the business section of today's Irish Examiner - "more than one-third" of Irish businesses ( presumably 35-40%) have completely stopped shipping goods through GB since the New Year:

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40213223.html?type=amp


  • #2


    yagan wrote: »
    Brexit is the biggest geopolitical event in western Europe since 1945, and of the whole continent since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

    For Ireland it's probably the biggest economic realignment ever, the insularity of the GB economic drift being in direct proportion of Ireland's increased trade growth beyond our neighbour.

    This is going to have a huge societal impact as we get more direct exposure to the continent while lessening our Irish Sea ties.

    Observing that drift and checking off the predictions is not an exercise in self righteousness. What Irish businesses eschewed preparing for Brexit lest they thought they'd be seen as glouting?

    But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

    Arguably Suez was a much greater crisis for both the UK and France geopolitically than Brexit. The three day week was a greater crisis for the UK, if you want to contextualize it more domestically.


  • #2


    But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

    Arguably Suez was a much greater crisis for both the UK and France geopolitically than Brexit. The three day week was a greater crisis for the UK, if you want to contextualize it more domestically.

    Attempts are being made on and off this thread to rewrite the narrative as sure we knew X would happen, it's fine. Or it's X fault for this outcome , or its X's fault for not believing enough, or its X's fault for not letting us have what we want we're special.

    Suez pales in comparison to this. We are less than a month in and it's splitting already.

    I don't think posts to rewrite the narrative as to who owns it are glib tbh. Own it.


  • #2


    Ther's this for starters; non-lucrative visa first, then apply for permanent residency:


    You can continue from there if you like.

    That is what I said yesterday. For the non-lucrative visa you need to prove income and get health insurance. The first time you apply the visa is for one year. Then you can renew it for a further two years, and then again for another two years. So you need to have the proof of income and health insurance for the first five years. Then you can apply for permanent residency, and at that point I believe you no longer need to prove income and you can use the Spanish public health system.

    I spent a lot of time researching this in 2016 when I was in despair, trying to find a way of getting around Brexit. The advantage of this visa is that you don't need to spend the whole year in Spain and you can spend a lot of time in other parts of the Schengen Area as long as you spend half the year in Spain. There is some debate whether you are allowed to remote work using this visa. I was considering getting this visa in the future but I'm now thinking more along the lines of moving to Ireland and getting naturalised after five years. As I said in an earlier post, I would have left in 2016 but my partner wants to continue doing her job in England until retirement.


  • #2


    But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

    Arguably Suez was a much greater crisis for both the UK and France geopolitically than Brexit. The three day week was a greater crisis for the UK, if you want to contextualize it more domestically.
    Suez was the fag butt end of empires extending far beyond Europe, but Brexit is the biggest geopolitical event to affect Europe since the fall of the Berlin wall and we're not even a month in!

    Blue passports is part and parcel of a massive regression by a nation imploding.


  • #2


    mrunsure wrote: »
    That is what I said yesterday. For the non-lucrative visa you need to prove income and get health insurance. The first time you apply the visa is for one year. Then you can renew it for a further two years, and then again for another two years. So you need to have the proof of income and health insurance for the first five years. Then you can apply for permanent residency, and at that point I believe you no longer need to prove income and you can use the Spanish public health system.

    I spent a lot of time researching this in 2016 when I was in despair, trying to find a way of getting around Brexit. The advantage of this visa is that you don't need to spend the whole year in Spain and you can spend a lot of time in other parts of the Schengen Area as long as you spend half the year in Spain. There is some debate whether you are allowed to remote work using this visa. I was considering getting this visa in the future but I'm now thinking more along the lines of moving to Ireland and getting naturalised after five years. As I said in an earlier post, I would have left in 2016 but my partner wants to continue doing her job in England until retirement.

    Naturalised Irish citizenship can be revoked if you live outside Ireland for 7 years or more. You need to confirm you intend to keep it to prevent that from happening.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html#l09afb


  • #2


    But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

    It does say something when you take into account the EU not forcing them to have burgundy passports.


  • #2


    kowloon wrote: »
    It does say something when you take into account the EU not forcing them to have burgundy passports.

    Croatiains enjoy blue passports. David Cameron didn't even ask for them in his negotiation with the EU.


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    Attempts are being made on and off this thread to rewrite the narrative as sure we knew X would happen, it's fine. Or it's X fault for this outcome , or its X's fault for not believing enough, or its X's fault for not letting us have what we want we're special.


    I love the take by the Express on the idea of the likes of cheese manufacturers setting up a distribution hub in Benelux.

    On the face of it, it's such a slam-dunk negative of Brexit that surely no-one could twist it any other way?
    But the Express swings it into positive territory with "Brexit: UK creates clever ploy to help British businesses avoid crippling EU red tape"

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1387936/Brexit-live-updates-EU-trade-deal-latest-Michael-Gove-House-of-Lords-fishing-row-Macron


  • #2


    I think the problems in the 1970s UK was a bit more complex than that. A few decades of under investment in the UK manufacturing, plus a poor education system, creeping automation, and a very deep division between the two political parties, plus a huge national debt resulting from the WW II costs not being forgiven, or paid off. As well as that, huge errors in managing the economy led to the UK auto industry making cars nobody wanted, the coal industry running out of coal, the shipbuilding being uncompetitive, etc.

    In fact, uncompetitive sums up the whole scene in 70s Britain. No Gov could solve the problems without swingeing austerity. Thatcher delivered that, and basically shut down most of GB north of Watford. Of course, her friends in the City had huge tax cuts to keep them onside.

    The unions throwing the weight around definitely accelerated the manufacturing decline and basically marked Britains card as a country where primary activity delivery could never be cost competitive ever again,

    but to return to the posters original point, I don't think the 70s was a dark period for workers rights, nor one we're likely to see return under Brexit as they claimed.


  • #2


    The unions throwing the weight around definitely accelerated the manufacturing decline and basically marked Britains card as a country where primary activity delivery could never be cost competitive ever again,

    but to return to the posters original point, I don't think the 70s was a dark period for workers rights, nor one we're likely to see return under Brexit as they claimed.

    Why. We've only seen rollbacks on rights three weeks in.

    Example. Working time directive, driving hours.

    What specific positives is it that you've have seen to make such a statement and name them.


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    Why. We've only seen rollbacks on rights three weeks in.

    Example. Working time directive, driving hours.

    What specific positives is it that you've have seen to make such a statement and name them.

    Have they already messed with the working time directive ?


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    Why. We've only seen rollbacks on rights three weeks in.

    Example. Working time directive, driving hours.

    What specific positives is it that you've have seen to make such a statement and name them.

    what has change about those in the last 3 weeks ? Im not saying there are positives to Brexit, but don't believe the workers rights and chlorinated chicken apocalypse is coming either.


  • #2


    what has change about those in the last 3 weeks ? Im not saying there are positives to Brexit, but don't believe the workers rights and chlorinated chicken apocalypse is coming either.

    Yet.


  • #2


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Have they already messed with the working time directive ?

    Was done and then withdrawn few weeks later. Assuming large backslash from logistics and police.


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    Was done and then withdrawn few weeks later. Assuming large backslash from logistics and police.

    so we haven't seen a rollback of workers rights in the last 3 weeks....


  • #2


    so we haven't seen a rollback of workers rights in the last 3 weeks....

    No your wrong. We did it was in place it was splashed across the papers and now withdrawn.

    More to come.

    I'm waiting for your positive news stories on all the additional rights workers now have and will get. Shoot.


  • #2


    so we haven't seen a rollback of workers rights in the last 3 weeks....

    In fairness it would take longer than 3 weeks but it's in the Tories sights

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/12-unions-warn-boris-johnson-23381319?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    They never liked the 48hr cap.


  • #2


    In fairness it would take longer than 3 weeks but it's in the Tories sights

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/12-unions-warn-boris-johnson-23381319?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

    They never liked the 48hr cap.

    They do seem keen to dismantle that alright. No surprise that Kwasi Kwarteng is involved. He's a co-author of Britannia Unchained, a diatribe about how lazy British people are penned by people who were born into privilege.


  • #2


    They do seem keen to dismantle that alright. No surprise that Kwasi Kwarteng is involved. He's a co-author of Britannia Unchained, a diatribe about how lazy British people are penned by people who were born into privilege.

    Co-written by Raab, Patel, Truss, Skidmore and our friend Kwarteng. From Britannia Unchained:

    "If we are to take advantage of these opportunities, we must get on the side of the responsible, the hardworking and the brave."

    "We must stop bailing out the reckless, avoiding all risk and rewarding laziness."

    "Once they enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor."


  • #2


    so we haven't seen a rollback of workers rights in the last 3 weeks....

    Do you seriously think this clownshower of a government would have had the legislation in place on 1/1/2021? They can barely string a sentence together.

    Be patient. It will happen. They'll be sly about it, like most governments, but it'll happen.


Society & Culture