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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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  • While EU funds were being used to regenerate the areas that were left to fall apart in Thatcher's Britain. Isn't it ironic, don't you think.


    It's like raaaaaaaaa-iiiii-aaaiiiinnnnn on your wedding day!
    Have a friend living in a coastal town in north wales popular with English retirees who actually started a campaign to remove all EU funding signs from the EU funded promenade they enjoy every day. Bitter folk.




  • It's a very pedantic point. Nothern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so in that regard you could say that Northern Ireland isn't a part of Great Britain but part of the UK.

    Yes, you're all correct. But somehow I don't think UKOGBANIEXIT was ever going to catch on.




  • yagan wrote: »
    Have a friend living in a coastal town in north wales popular with English retirees who actually started a campaign to remove all EU funding signs from the EU funded promenade they enjoy every day. Bitter folk.

    Those signs are few and far between especially compared to here




  • yagan wrote: »
    Have a friend living in a coastal town in north wales popular with English retirees who actually started a campaign to remove all EU funding signs from the EU funded promenade they enjoy every day. Bitter folk.

    Wales is very Brexity. Hard to fathom just a short hop across the pond from ourselves and such a different outlook. Especially considering it is far from the Home Counties etc.
    Won’t miss the drive through it and the twisty road from Pembroke/ Fishguard.




  • The wartime generation were more almost as pro EU as the millennials according to the LSE. National pride wouldn't outweigh peace to them.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/05/britains-wartime-generation-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/
    It's probably fair to say that it will be at least another decade before the question of rejoining the EU is likely to be seriously asked again, a lot could happen in the next 19 years or so.
    Remember that Labour held a referendum of staying in the EEC only about 5 years after joining, before there was any real change on the ground in the lives of ordinary people.
    It will take several years until the "outside of EU" affects on the ground, really bed in and people are able to decide whether the pain of 2021 was worth it or not, as well as what preconditions there would be on rejoining.
    The world changed significantly in 2020 due to COVID, it will change again in the future, where will Europe (& UK) be in the world order in 10 years time?
    How different will the EU be by the next time there is a possibility for the UK to contemplate rejoining.


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  • breezy1985 wrote: »
    yagan wrote: »
    Have a friend living in a coastal town in north wales popular with English retirees who actually started a campaign to remove all EU funding signs from the EU funded promenade they enjoy every day. Bitter folk.

    Those signs are few and far between especially compared to here

    That is because they either do not put them up or hide them round the back out of sight.

    Alternatively, they remove them.




  • That is because they either do not put them up or hide them round the back out of sight.

    Alternatively, they remove them.

    I think it played a huge part in vote especially in poorer areas. English people seem to have very little awareness about the RDF whereas I can walk around Limerick and see the benefits all over the place




  • 20silkcut wrote: »
    Wales is very Brexity. Hard to fathom just a short hop across the pond from ourselves and such a different outlook. Especially considering it is far from the Home Counties etc.
    Won’t miss the drive through it and the twisty road from Pembroke/ Fishguard.

    Wales probably has the highest per capita number of English people. A lot of them would be older conservative voters too




  • dolanbaker wrote: »
    It's probably fair to say that it will be at least another decade before the question of rejoining the EU is likely to be seriously asked again, a lot could happen in the next 19 years or so.
    Remember that Labour held a referendum of staying in the EEC only about 5 years after joining, before there was any real change on the ground in the lives of ordinary people.
    It will take several years until the "outside of EU" affects on the ground, really bed in and people are able to decide whether the pain of 2021 was worth it or not, as well as what preconditions there would be on rejoining.
    The world changed significantly in 2020 due to COVID, it will change again in the future, where will Europe (& UK) be in the world order in 10 years time?
    How different will the EU be by the next time there is a possibility for the UK to contemplate rejoining.

    The UK joined on the 1 January 1973 and held their referendum in June 1975.

    I don't think it will take several years. We're seeing the effects now or at least some of them. There's currently a transition period for financial services for the next 18 months. If the deal reached in 2020 is any indication, we're going to see a level playing field on that front as well. Also, the stockpiles that have been assembled are going to run out at some point soon.

    All Brexit has done is create unnecessary red tape and trade barriers while ministers blame businesses and try to put Union flags on vaccine vials.

    That said, the UK won't be able to rejoin the EU until it understands why it left and why so many people voted for this chaos and hardship when most of the country's problems can be pinned on the two main parties (and possibly the Lib Dems).

    I think we need holistic political change here before that can happen including a reformed voting system, a reformed House of Commons and devolution to the regions of England. Even then, it'll be at least a decade until even talking about rejoining becomes viable.




  • yagan wrote: »
    Have a friend living in a coastal town in north wales popular with English retirees who actually started a campaign to remove all EU funding signs from the EU funded promenade they enjoy every day. Bitter folk.

    Rhyl I assume given its reasonable proximity to the English border and sizeable sea-front (although it's been decades since I was last there so my memory may be a bit distorted by youth).
    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Those signs are few and far between especially compared to here
    That is because they either do not put them up or hide them round the back out of sight.

    I've been here for a decade and you really have to looking for those flags; the English (not so much the Scots from memory on the matter but may be mistaken) make them as small as possible when they are obliged to display them, otherwise they just don't bother if they can get away with it. Westminster does not like acknowledging the EU at all.


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  • It's a very pedantic point. Nothern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so in that regard you could say that Northern Ireland isn't a part of Great Britain but part of the UK.
    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Geographically NI is not part of Great Britain. It's probably semantics, but the country's name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    I don't think it's pedantic, or semantics. Northern Ireland is unequivocally not part of Britain - great or otherwise.

    Geographically, it is part of Ireland.

    Politically, with GB, it forms the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It remains to be seen how long that will be the case given that political union is failing miserably.




  • Er, I rather think it is part of Britain, actually.

    Nope, Britain is the Island that contains Wales, Scotland and England

    NI is in the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'




  • Looking at this gridlock on the Channel Tunnel, Irish hauliers won't be in any rush back to the landbridge:

    https://twitter.com/vivamjm/status/1354399803195715585




  • There is a lot of focus on here on some of the day to day issues associated with Brexit and while that's fine I think it might be useful to look at what major initiatives the UK may be considering in strategic terms now that it is not in the EU.

    I think that the UKs move to seek accession to the CPTPP trading bloc is quite interesting.

    I imagine strategically for them its a hookup to a large trading bloc (yes its ironic but they would see it as a bloc free of political interference). What might work out for them if they achieve accession would be if the US also joins CPTPP as that would give the UK a backdoor free trade deal in some areas with the US. CPTPP is basically some important countries in the general Pacific/Asean area joining up to do some free trade and also to gang up to counteract the increasingly power and threat of China. The US was going to join before Trump and may do so again under Biden.




  • Lemming wrote: »
    I've been here for a decade and you really have to looking for those flags; the English (not so much the Scots from memory on the matter but may be mistaken) make them as small as possible when they are obliged to display them, otherwise they just don't bother if they can get away with it. Westminster does not like acknowledging the EU at all.

    With the UK as net-contributor, those signs could easily be brushed aside as 'they are just giving us our own money back'. Leaving would mean there's even more money coming our way (obviously we all know that's not what will happen)

    A quick google search returns an interesting article in the weeks after Brexit on Ebbw Vale, a town in Wales that got a large amount of Structural Fund spending, but also the highest Leave vote.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale




  • breezy1985 wrote: »
    Wales probably has the highest per capita number of English people. A lot of them would be older conservative voters too

    I think England might just beat them.
    The UK joined on the 1 January 1973 and held their referendum in June 1975.

    I don't think it will take several years. We're seeing the effects now or at least some of them. There's currently a transition period for financial services for the next 18 months. If the deal reached in 2020 is any indication, we're going to see a level playing field on that front as well. Also, the stockpiles that have been assembled are going to run out at some point soon.

    All Brexit has done is create unnecessary red tape and trade barriers while ministers blame businesses and try to put Union flags on vaccine vials.

    That said, the UK won't be able to rejoin the EU until it understands why it left and why so many people voted for this chaos and hardship when most of the country's problems can be pinned on the two main parties (and possibly the Lib Dems).

    I think we need holistic political change here before that can happen including a reformed voting system, a reformed House of Commons and devolution to the regions of England. Even then, it'll be at least a decade until even talking about rejoining becomes viable.

    Rejoin is not the only option. They could negotiate changes that make membership of either the CU or SM possible - even in a limited way and see how that goes. Then maybe do a deal on financial services or maybe sign up to some of the EU programmes, like Erasmus. Perhaps a few reciprocal arrangements like the EHIC and the like. Even tie the GB£ to the Euro - mind you that may only last till Wednesday.

    Gradual BRINO.




  • With the UK as net-contributor, those signs could easily be brushed aside as 'they are just giving us our own money back'. Leaving would mean there's even more money coming our way (obviously we all know that's not what will happen)

    Living in Yorkshire, I have heard that line more than once from leave supporters. They usually go silent or mumble non-committally when one points out that it may, in part be equivalent to "your money coming back" but it's only being spent north of the Watford gap on because Westminster has been given preconditions on spending said monies on deprived regions to improve peoples lives/local economies/etc. Any beginnings of protest tend to fall silent when said leavers are reminded of the Tories track record towards Yorkshire and where they would rather spend that money instead ...

    ... as the expression goes; "Never Trust a Tory"




  • What number? We're now into year 5 of Brexit - should we wait until JRM's 50-year milestone before completing our assessement?


    OK - so can you explain then why the British government (Tory MPs in particular) refuse to rule out dropping standards? And given that they have gone to great lengths to ensure that they have the freedom to compromise on quality (defying farmers, customers and the Lords) without further parliamentary oversight, how much of a "potentially good" thing do you seriously believe this is likely to be? Bearing in mind that the export-health-cert problems are also a direct outcome of the government's refusal to commit to maintaining current standards?


    It's what Johnson signed up for - why wouldn't it? The rule-book has been written; so unless you think that this government or the next is going to re-open the FTA negotiations, what's happening now is what's going to happen for the foreseeable future.

    Lest there be any doubt, don't forget that when Brexiter were yakking on about seamless trade and invisible borders controlled by AI, we were able to provide dozens of examples of existing borders elsewhere where there were all the same problems that we're seeing at the GB-EU frontier. Most of those other borders are between trading blocs that have better relationships than GB-EU, so there is no prospect of things improving, other than people getting used to filling in reams of documents.


    This is a classic Brexiter argument: I remember how things were before things were different. The EU is. By dint of its existence and its enormous influence on the rest of the world, whatever you remember from before doesn't apply any more. Nations across the globe choose to align themselves with EU standards because it makes life easier for them (and they happen to be, for the most part, the highest international standards - so you can always trade down if you want to do a deal with, say, the US).

    I know you've repeatedly asserted your belief that GB can make the best of the bad hand the ERG/Brexit Party dealt it, but the depressing reality is that enough of your countrymen voted for this government despite Johnson's utter contempt for Parliament, the Queen and traditional British "fair play" - so there's no reason to think that there's more than enough of a critical mass of voters to keep the Good Ship Britannia sailing off towards the edge of the world in search of Atlantis or some other mythical continent.

    Thought provoking post Celtic..
    I disagree with your assertion brexit happened five years ago.I believe that although the UK actually left the EU at the end of January last year,the transition period has masked the affects which is why I believe it will take a number of years from now to be able to see the effects.
    Regarding maintaining standards,I hope they are maintained at the current levels,no sensible person wants inferior quality products or food,although I can understand that the UK government is unwilling to comply with EU rules just because the EU is trying to assert it`s will on the UK..It is sometimes astonishing the way certain posters accept control and edicts from Brussels without question,I agreed with much of what Kermit has to say and was dismayed at the treatment this stalwart of the brexit thread received for questioning brussels overbearing desire to control every aspect of life within the EU.
    The government have signed up to a very thin deal because they want minimal EU say over the destiny of the UK,not what I wanted but we have to get on with it,things can and do change.It`s not set in stone leaving the EU means your done for,that`s just something spread by the EU who obviously don`t want a country that leaves doing well.
    Long term,I hope the tories are given their marching orders and the deal can be revisited.




  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    Thought provoking post Celtic..
    I disagree with your assertion brexit happened five years ago.I believe that although the UK actually left the EU at the end of January last year,the transition period has masked the affects which is why I believe it will take a number of years from now to be able to see the effects.
    Regarding maintaining standards,I hope they are maintained at the current levels,no sensible person wants inferior quality products or food,although I can understand that the UK government is unwilling to comply with EU rules just because the EU is trying to assert it`s will on the UK..It is sometimes astonishing the way certain posters accept control and edicts from Brussels without question,I agreed with much of what Kermit has to say and was dismayed at the treatment this stalwart of the brexit thread received for questioning brussels overbearing desire to control every aspect of life within the EU.
    The government have signed up to a very thin deal because they want minimal EU say over the destiny of the UK,not what I wanted but we have to get on with it,things can and do change.It`s not set in stone leaving the EU means your done for,that`s just something spread by the EU who obviously don`t want a country that leaves doing well.
    Long term,I hope the tories are given their marching orders and the deal can be revisited.

    "Assert it's will"
    "overbearing desire to control every aspect of life"
    You buy this crap straight from the mouth of Farage but ya it's the pro EU people who accept control without question. Laughable stuff




  • yagan wrote: »
    Have a friend living in a coastal town in north wales popular with English retirees who actually started a campaign to remove all EU funding signs from the EU funded promenade they enjoy every day. Bitter folk.

    They won't have to remove them, they'll fall down all on their own when the funding for maintenance and basic upkeep falls off a cliff as the Tories tighten the purse strings for anything other than their own vanity projects, or jobs for the boys


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  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    Thought provoking post Celtic..
    I disagree with your assertion brexit happened five years ago.I believe that although the UK actually left the EU at the end of January last year,the transition period has masked the affects which is why I believe it will take a number of years from now to be able to see the effects.
    Regarding maintaining standards,I hope they are maintained at the current levels,no sensible person wants inferior quality products or food,although I can understand that the UK government is unwilling to comply with EU rules just because the EU is trying to assert it`s will on the UK..It is sometimes astonishing the way certain posters accept control and edicts from Brussels without question,I agreed with much of what Kermit has to say and was dismayed at the treatment this stalwart of the brexit thread received for questioning brussels overbearing desire to control every aspect of life within the EU.
    The government have signed up to a very thin deal because they want minimal EU say over the destiny of the UK,not what I wanted but we have to get on with it,things can and do change.It`s not set in stone leaving the EU means your done for,that`s just something spread by the EU who obviously don`t want a country that leaves doing well.
    Long term,I hope the tories are given their marching orders and the deal can be revisited.

    Overbearing , check.
    Questioning Brussels, check.
    Control every aspect of life, check.
    Accept control, check.
    Edicts, check.


    Youre playing the who's who of brexit hits for the last 5 years . Can you give some clear and concise example of all of this overbearing control and edicts that we are accepting as an Ireland within the EU.

    Just wondering so one can ensure that you haven't been a brexit cheerleader all along. Details backing up the above classics would be a good start.




  • Akrasia wrote: »
    They won't have to remove them, they'll fall down all on their own when the funding for maintenance and basic upkeep falls off a cliff as the Tories tighten the purse strings for anything other than their own vanity projects, or jobs for the boys

    Yep.
    "Sorry lads no money to fix the school cause Joanna Lumley wants an Fing bridge"




  • Yes, you're all correct. But somehow I don't think UKOGBANIEXIT was ever going to catch on.

    The fact that NI wasn't even included in the concept of brexit from the beginning is one of the issues that has caused their own downfall

    The GFA put huge hurdles in the withdrawal agreement negotiations, stalling them for years while May and Johnson tried to lie about 'technological solutions' for a frictionless customs border

    Before the referendum, the future of Northern Ireland was probably item number 100 on the list of the average englander's top 100 things to consider when voting for or against Brexit




  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    I agreed with much of what Kermit has to say and was dismayed at the treatment this stalwart of the brexit thread received for questioning brussels overbearing desire to control every aspect of life within the EU.

    I've seen this line trotted out more times than I care to remember and it's pure waffle. What do you mean by 'control every aspect of life'? The overbearing food standards that ensure we're not eating poo? The overbearing right to privacy and data protection? The overbearing workers rights? The overbearing rights of free movement and free trade? Is Brussels going to start telling me when I can go to the toilet?




  • Akrasia wrote: »
    The fact that NI wasn't even included in the concept of brexit from the beginning is one of the issues that has caused their own downfall

    The GFA put huge hurdles in the withdrawal agreement negotiations, stalling them for years while May and Johnson tried to lie about 'technological solutions' for a frictionless customs border

    Before the referendum, the future of Northern Ireland was probably item number 100 on the list of the average englander's top 100 things to consider when voting for or against Brexit

    Why would any of that be considered it was a very narrow understanding of life, and what they want from maybe up to 50 individuals in the Tory party, meeting in secret, taking public funds to fund their party within a party. Their only sole goal was get out of the EU. Nothing outside of that mattered.


    Democracy... Indeed.




  • J Mysterio wrote: »
    I don't think it's pedantic, or semantics. Northern Ireland is unequivocally not part of Britain - great or otherwise.

    Geographically, it is part of Ireland.

    Politically, with GB, it forms the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It remains to be seen how long that will be the case given that political union is failing miserably.

    And geographically Ireland is part of the British Isles!




  • schmoo2k wrote: »
    And geographically Ireland is part of the British Isles!

    That term is in dispute. I don't use it myself.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute




  • mod: can we stop with the GB/UK/British Isles discussion please?




  • J Mysterio wrote: »
    That term is in dispute. I don't use it myself.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute

    Yea I went looking for that link before I posted - but the fact I had to go look for it made me feel bad.


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  • RobMc59 wrote: »
    Thought provoking post Celtic..
    I disagree with your assertion brexit happened five years ago.I believe that although the UK actually left the EU at the end of January last year,the transition period has masked the affects which is why I believe it will take a number of years from now to be able to see the effects.
    Regarding maintaining standards,I hope they are maintained at the current levels,no sensible person wants inferior quality products or food,although I can understand that the UK government is unwilling to comply with EU rules just because the EU is trying to assert it`s will on the UK..It is sometimes astonishing the way certain posters accept control and edicts from Brussels without question,I agreed with much of what Kermit has to say and was dismayed at the treatment this stalwart of the brexit thread received for questioning brussels overbearing desire to control every aspect of life within the EU.
    The government have signed up to a very thin deal because they want minimal EU say over the destiny of the UK,not what I wanted but we have to get on with it,things can and do change.It`s not set in stone leaving the EU means your done for,that`s just something spread by the EU who obviously don`t want a country that leaves doing well.
    Long term,I hope the tories are given their marching orders and the deal can be revisited.


    You are so concerned about the overbearing attitude of Brussels and them telling us what we can and cannot do that you wanted to Remain. You trot out the same stupid lines about the EU that has caused people to hate and fear the EU and vote to Leave, even when it is shown to be a idea that will cost livelihoods and put people out of work.

    Do you know what will happen if the deal is revisited? The UK will have to accept that there will be instances where you will have abide by rules you had no say in. But in the same post you seem to rant against this very thing. Do you want to revisit your desire for a renegotiated deal when you know this will be the outcome?

    And I cannot believe I have to say this, but there isn't some Brussels office that decide to inflict rules on the EU, it is the EU of which Ireland is one member that decides on these regulations and rules to follow. Can we please just stop with the Leaver Brexit narrative almost 5 years after the referendum.


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