Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

looksee · 24-01-2021 8:29pm

mrunsure wrote: »

So maybe someone approaching retirement can move to Ireland, get some kind of job, any job, leave that job after a few months then claim the Irish state pension? Could he even then move back to the UK if he wished and continue to get the Irish state pension whilst taking advantage of the lower cost of living in the UK?

In order to keep a state pension (non-contributory) you have to be resident in the state.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-01-2021 8:49pm

mrunsure wrote: »

Is there some hope that the agreement will be changed to help such exporters?

And what would the UK offer in return ?

The UK has a lower threshold in the opposite direction and didn't allow a delay because of Covid. So the UK has a lot of distance to move before it even begins to look like a level playing field.

The EU and UK are constricted by the Most Favoured Nation WTO clause.
And neither want to open their markets to third parties, and neither want to reopen negotiations. Especially since the EU hasn't ratified the agreement yet.

Bear in mind that the whole Brexit process is going from a position where the UK had equal access but at every stage swapped access for Sovereignty. But as usual in trade deals the bigger more powerful side gets the better part of the deal. Every round, every renegotiation will be on average slightly in favour to the EU.

And it's not just this matter, for example the UK were offered the visa for musicians on a quid pro quo but rejected it. I'd be shocked if new examples didn't keep popping up. There's the story of the kid on cannabis oil as a painkiller. EU rules meant he could get it on a Dutch prescription but can't now.

Turkey is not completely in the Customs Union but the UK rejected that option. Brexit from the UK side is either they didn't know or didn't care. Neither is excusable.

Reminder of Barniers Staircase Diagram.
PDF https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/slide_presented_by_barnier_at_euco_15-12-2017.pdf

Slide presented by Michel Barnier, European Commission Chief
Negotiator, to the Heads of State and Government at the
European Council (Article 50) on 15 December 2017

mrunsure · 24-01-2021 9:02pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And it's not just this matter, for example the UK were offered the visa for musicians on a quid pro quo but rejected it. I'd be shocked if new examples didn't keep popping up. There's the story of the kid on cannabis oil as a painkiller. EU rules meant he could get it on a Dutch prescription but can't now.

I saw the musicians visa issue but not the cannabis oil situation. I've just read up on that. That is unbelievable. Would moving to Ireland, at least temporarily, help in this situation? I would have thought it would be possible to crowdfund the expenses required for such a worthy cause for those who are unable to afford it.

sondagefaux · 24-01-2021 10:42pm

mrunsure wrote: »

Just to clarify, I was talking about someone who doesn't qualify for the visa because of pre-existing health conditions but who can nevertheless afford to move to Ireland.

Someone in that position is in a bit of a pickle, and their only option is to move to Ireland first. As you rightly point out, that requires money and time.

That page seems to describe the procedure for new residents, not those who are ready to apply for permanent residency after five years in Spain.

Read to the end of the page.

sondagefaux · 24-01-2021 10:57pm

Another blow to online sales.

Under EU rules, people in the UK who purchased from the rest of the EU had the transaction charges for the sellers (card merchants fees) capped.

Now Mastercard is upping its fees from 0.2% to 1.15% (debit cards) or 0.3% to 1.5% (credit cards) of the transaction value for online sales.

If companies in the EEA selling to UK customers online don't absorb these fees, they'll be passed on to consumers.

Just another little niggle to add to the pile.

PS: the rates of 1.15% and 1.5% for debit/credit card online transactions is capped for Mastercard and Visa products because of pressure from the EU. These caps expire in 5.5 years from the date that Mastercard and Visa set with the Commission's approval.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_19_2311

sondagefaux · 24-01-2021 11:01pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Seems the MD of Cheshire Cheese, Simon Spurrell, will be speaking to James O'Brien on his show tomorrow. I wonder will other food products become more vocal as a result. If not, I'd like to hear their thoughts on Simon's claim that "food producers in the UK cannot commercially afford to sell direct to the EU consumers"

https://twitter.com/SimonJSpurrell/status/1352996171392946176?s=19

https://twitter.com/SimonJSpurrell/status/1353012741401796608?s=19

If the foodstuff requires an Export Health Certificate or a Phytosanitary Certificate, the answer is 'Yes, you cannot sell to individual consumers in the EU from Britain and make a profit'.

embraer170 · 24-01-2021 11:18pm

sondagefaux wrote: »

If the foodstuff requires an Export Health Certificate or a Phytosanitary Certificate, the answer is 'Yes, you cannot sell to individual consumers in the EU from Britain and make a profit'.

You can sell from Britain as long as you have a distribution hub in the EU. With the latest card fees story, your online payments system better be in the EU too.

I expect we’ll be seeing a lot more do this over the coming months, with business small and large quietly moving investments outside the UK.

sondagefaux · 25-01-2021 12:06am

embraer170 wrote: »

You can sell from Britain as long as you have a distribution hub in the EU. With the latest card fees story, your online payments system better be in the EU too.

I expect we’ll be seeing a lot more do this over the coming months, with business small and large quietly moving investments outside the UK.

It's a two-way hit to trade. This 'card merchants' transaction fee increase will affect sellers in the UK and sellers in the EU, as will all the other difficulties, by 1st July at the latest when the UK starts fully implementing its SPS rules, and the new EU VAT rules for online sales begin.

Given the comparative sizes of the two markets, the UK will be hit worse than the EU.

listermint · 25-01-2021 12:06am

The wheels are falling off you'd have to believe . It's literally all coming to bear after the first month. I had thought once supplies start dwindling into February things would start to blow up and it's just successive bad news stories every week since January settled in.

Strazdas · 25-01-2021 1:08am

listermint wrote: »

The wheels are falling off you'd have to believe . It's literally all coming to bear after the first month. I had thought once supplies start dwindling into February things would start to blow up and it's just successive bad news stories every week since January settled in.

I would factor in that this is a genuinely terrible government which seems to hate business. It's a perfect storm - a disastrous idea (hard Brexit) coupled with a really bad / incompetent government.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-01-2021 1:16am

sondagefaux wrote: »

Another blow to online sales.

Under EU rules, people in the UK who purchased from the rest of the EU had the transaction charges for the sellers (card merchants fees) capped.

Now Mastercard is upping its fees from 0.2% to 1.15% (debit cards) or 0.3% to 1.5% (credit cards) of the transaction value for online sales.

But the UK is a strong independent country who don't need no EU ?

Next you'll be telling me the UK won't benefit from new EU consumer protections. Little costs but they add up over time.

Valve, owner of online PC gaming platform Steam, and five other publishers have been fined a total of €7.8m (£6.9m) for restricting cross-border sales of PC video games.

It's another one of the costs of Brexit

But hey, blue passports !

sondagefaux · 25-01-2021 1:18am

Forman & Field, the food company associated with Lance Forman, Brexit campaigner and former Brexit Party MEP, no longer delivers to the EU or Northern Ireland. I guess he's really committed to leaving the EU...

DELIVERY AREAS – SERVICES AVAILABLE
PLEASE NOTE: Deliveries to the E.U. and Northern Ireland are now on hold until further notice. Please contact us at info@formanandfield.com for further information.

https://www.formanandfield.com/about-us/delivery-areas-shipping-zones-and-surcharges/

Rain Ascending · 25-01-2021 3:05am

Enzokk wrote: »

So the current advice for companies struggling with red tape is to set up a new company within the EU.

Set up shop in Europe, government advisers tell Brexit-hit businesses

I feel sorry for those that will lose their job to colleagues in EU countries, but they had a chance to rule out this scenario and they still voted for it in 2019.

This particular article highlights the unresolved tension between the politics of Brexit and the business reality.

Clearly the advice given by the DIT officials was the correct one -- as others have pointed out in this thread, it's better that businesses survive, even if they have to shift investment from the UK to the EU.

The politics that Brexit has to be good in all dimensions, keep getting in the way. From the article in the Guardian, we have this gem:

The spokesperson from the Department for International Trade said: “This is not government policy, the Cabinet Office have issued clear guidance, available at gov.uk/transition, and we encourage all businesses to follow that guidance. We are ensuring all officials are properly conveying this information.”

I've poked around on that site, and sure enough, there is nothing that I can find on when a business should establish a presence within the EU or how to do it.

Contrast that with Enterprise Ireland's approach in the opposite direction. Some Irish SMEs face very similar problems selling into the GB market and need a presence there. (Indeed some Irish companies have already set up subsidiaries in the UK as a result of the Brexit vote.) And Enterprise Ireland? They've run a seminar on the topic with follow-up free (albeit short) consultation sessions for their clients!

So when reports emerge of Irish businesses having higher levels of awareness and preparedness for the "new" border arrangements with GB, as compared to their GB counterparts, it's not hard to see why. The contrast between the ideological trap the UK government finds itself in and the hard-nosed pragmatism of the Irish state is stark.

reslfj · 25-01-2021 4:19am

looksee wrote: »

In order to keep a state pension (non-contributory) you have to be resident in the state.

Not within the EU (and EEA/CH too, I think), you - as an EU/EEA/CH citizen - don't. As long as you stay within the EU or EEA/CH, the state, where you lived while working, will have to pay out your full pension (EU/SM rule)

Taxation is governed by non-EU bilateral double taxation agreements between the state where you qualified for state pension or saved for extra pension with tax incentives, and the state where you live as a pensioner.

State pensions, tax deferred pension savings often paid as annuities will by the DTA often be taxed in the country where you lived while working - but this must be checked for every relevant DTA.

E.G. Here in Denmark you will get 100% state pension, if you have lived here in 40 years between the age of 15 and state pension age - currently 67 years.
Otherwise you will receive a proportional reduced pension.
But then you will likely have a kind of state pension from the state where you lived. for the missing years.

Lars

mrunsure · 25-01-2021 9:13am

sondagefaux wrote: »

Read to the end of the page.

You'll have to show me. I have looked and looked but can't find it.

Liberalbrehon · 25-01-2021 9:26am

The ERG never cared about damage to business. No cost was too high to get out of the European court of Justice. Watch them roll back workers rights etc over next few years. If there are any workers left. Britain will be worse than it was in the 1970's.
The cost of UK to re-enter the EU will be sterling. Given the economic damage to people I don't think they will care, but the earliest that could happen will be 5 years. In the meantime, UK will slip down the pecking order, possibly out of the G7? Is that possible? If GDP falls enough I guess it could or they will be number 7 in that list.

breezy1985 · 25-01-2021 9:50am

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

The ERG never cared about damage to business. No cost was too high to get out of the European court of Justice. Watch them roll back workers rights etc over next few years. If there are any workers left. Britain will be worse than it was in the 1970's.
The cost of UK to re-enter the EU will be sterling. Given the economic damage to people I don't think they will care, but the earliest that could happen will be 5 years. In the meantime, UK will slip down the pecking order, possibly out of the G7? Is that possible? If GDP falls enough I guess it could or they will be number 7 in that list.

Losing sterling will be a huge sell to English people no matter how poor they are or how devalued it is. They have a big thing about how it used to be the "world" currency

As for G7 if Italy managed to hang on it must be a pretty hard league to get relegated from

mrunsure · 25-01-2021 9:51am

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

The ERG never cared about damage to business. No cost was too high to get out of the European court of Justice. Watch them roll back workers rights etc over next few years. If there are any workers left. Britain will be worse than it was in the 1970's.
The cost of UK to re-enter the EU will be sterling. Given the economic damage to people I don't think they will care, but the earliest that could happen will be 5 years. In the meantime, UK will slip down the pecking order, possibly out of the G7? Is that possible? If GDP falls enough I guess it could or they will be number 7 in that list.

The G7 already includes countries outside the top 7 largest economies. Italy is eighth and Canada is ninth. The UK economy is currently about 40% larger than Canada's. (Per capita the UK is 21st according to the IMF). Conversely, China and India are in the top 7 but are not in the G7.

Eric Cartman · 25-01-2021 11:05am

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

The ERG never cared about damage to business. No cost was too high to get out of the European court of Justice. Watch them roll back workers rights etc over next few years. If there are any workers left. Britain will be worse than it was in the 1970's.
The cost of UK to re-enter the EU will be sterling. Given the economic damage to people I don't think they will care, but the earliest that could happen will be 5 years. In the meantime, UK will slip down the pecking order, possibly out of the G7? Is that possible? If GDP falls enough I guess it could or they will be number 7 in that list.

I doubt there'll be much erosion of workers rights at all. I especially don't recall the 70s as a particularly dark point in British workers rights ?

Ive noticed a lot of supply issues with fruit and veg already. Id imagine theres other things I'm not seeing but warehouse stocks have to be running low now so February will start seeing the actual logistic issues.

25-01-2021 11:59am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I doubt there'll be much erosion of workers rights at all. I especially don't recall the 70s as a particularly dark point in British workers rights ?

The 1970s a time of powerful unions not afraid to flex their muscles at any time and a Labour government that kept on giving, until they couldn't and brought in the IMF.
Set up the stage perfectly for the Thatcher revolution, which allowed all the jobs to go east!

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 12:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The 1970s a time of powerful unions not afraid to flex their muscles at any time and a Labour government that kept on giving, until they couldn't and brought in the IMF.
Set up the stage perfectly for the Thatcher revolution, which allowed all the jobs to go east!

I think the problems in the 1970s UK was a bit more complex than that. A few decades of under investment in the UK manufacturing, plus a poor education system, creeping automation, and a very deep division between the two political parties, plus a huge national debt resulting from the WW II costs not being forgiven, or paid off. As well as that, huge errors in managing the economy led to the UK auto industry making cars nobody wanted, the coal industry running out of coal, the shipbuilding being uncompetitive, etc.

In fact, uncompetitive sums up the whole scene in 70s Britain. No Gov could solve the problems without swingeing austerity. Thatcher delivered that, and basically shut down most of GB north of Watford. Of course, her friends in the City had huge tax cuts to keep them onside.

liamog · 25-01-2021 12:41pm

I saw a great analysis of the Marshall Plan investment in Europe post WW2, France spent it on transport links and a massive programme of energy independence via Nuclear Power, Germany spent it on rebuilding manufacturing, the UK used it to build up financial services and attempt to maintain the GBP as the world currency. It lead to British manufacturing being massively behind the times and so couldn't compete on quality as the cheaper end moved out East.

MrMusician18 · 25-01-2021 1:11pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

But the UK is a strong independent country who don't need no EU ?

Next you'll be telling me the UK won't benefit from new EU consumer protections. Little costs but they add up over time.

It's another one of the costs of Brexit

But hey, blue passports !

These kind of glib posts add nothing to the discussion tbh.

The Raging Bile Duct · 25-01-2021 1:13pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

These kind of glib posts add nothing to the discussion tbh.

Kind of hard not to be glib when looking at the mess Brexit is.

MrMusician18 · 25-01-2021 1:21pm

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Kind of hard not to be glib when looking at the mess Brexit is.

There is nothing interesting with endless "I told you so" posts. Is like we haven't moved on from 2016 in many cases.

Yeah, it's a mess, the how and the why of it is a lot more interesting than self righteous posting. At least that can be engaged with.

ancapailldorcha · 25-01-2021 1:30pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

These kind of glib posts add nothing to the discussion tbh.

Mod: If you have a problem with a post, report it please. Don't backseat moderate.

sondagefaux · 25-01-2021 1:35pm

mrunsure wrote: »

You'll have to show me. I have looked and looked but can't find it.

There's this for starters; non-lucrative visa first, then apply for permanent residency:

How to apply for Spanish residence in Spain
Remember, if you are from a non-European Union country and are not married to a European Union citizen, you will need a visa before you get the Spanish residency card (one of the most common visas is the Spanish non-lucrative visa).

You can continue from there if you like.

yagan · 25-01-2021 1:40pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There is nothing interesting with endless "I told you so" posts. Is like we haven't moved on from 2016 in many cases.

Yeah, it's a mess, the how and the why of it is a lot more interesting than self righteous posting. At least that can be engaged with.

Brexit is the biggest geopolitical event in western Europe since 1945, and of the whole continent since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

For Ireland it's probably the biggest economic realignment ever, the insularity of the GB economic drift being in direct proportion of Ireland's increased trade growth beyond our neighbour.

This is going to have a huge societal impact as we get more direct exposure to the continent while lessening our Irish Sea ties.

Observing that drift and checking off the predictions is not an exercise in self righteousness. What Irish businesses eschewed preparing for Brexit lest they thought they'd be seen as glouting?

sondagefaux · 25-01-2021 1:45pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There is nothing interesting with endless "I told you so" posts. Is like we haven't moved on from 2016 in many cases.

Yeah, it's a mess, the how and the why of it is a lot more interesting than self righteous posting. At least that can be engaged with.

The how and the why isn't hard to grasp.

Morons voted for a moronic thing with a moronic outcome because they listened to morons.

What more is there to say about how and why Brexit happened?

As for the outcomes, what's wrong with posting examples of the real-world consequences of Brexit after 4.5 years of listening to shrill 'Project Fear' denials?

Apart from showing just how Brexit is affecting trade and investment, they can be used to illustrate why leaving a single market and a customs union after decades is a moronic idea.

Here's a particularly vivid example. The obscenity of this in a society where millions rely on foodbanks, where a reluctant government has to be dragged kicking and screaming into handing out food parcels (that cost £30 but contain £5 worth of food) to kids by a football player.

An Ciarraioch · 25-01-2021 1:47pm

yagan wrote: »

Brexit is the biggest geopolitical event in western Europe since 1945, and of the whole continent since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

For Ireland it's probably the biggest economic realignment ever, the insularity of the GB economic drift being in direct proportion of Ireland's increased trade growth beyond our neighbour.

This is going to have a huge societal impact as we get more direct exposure to the continent while lessening our Irish Sea ties.

Observing that drift and checking off the predictions is not an exercise in self righteousness. What Irish businesses eschewed preparing for Brexit lest they thought they'd be seen as glouting?

Interesting piece in the business section of today's Irish Examiner - "more than one-third" of Irish businesses ( presumably 35-40%) have completely stopped shipping goods through GB since the New Year:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40213223.html?type=amp

MrMusician18 · 25-01-2021 1:49pm

yagan wrote: »

Brexit is the biggest geopolitical event in western Europe since 1945, and of the whole continent since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

For Ireland it's probably the biggest economic realignment ever, the insularity of the GB economic drift being in direct proportion of Ireland's increased trade growth beyond our neighbour.

This is going to have a huge societal impact as we get more direct exposure to the continent while lessening our Irish Sea ties.

Observing that drift and checking off the predictions is not an exercise in self righteousness. What Irish businesses eschewed preparing for Brexit lest they thought they'd be seen as glouting?

But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

Arguably Suez was a much greater crisis for both the UK and France geopolitically than Brexit. The three day week was a greater crisis for the UK, if you want to contextualize it more domestically.

listermint · 25-01-2021 1:53pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

Arguably Suez was a much greater crisis for both the UK and France geopolitically than Brexit. The three day week was a greater crisis for the UK, if you want to contextualize it more domestically.

Attempts are being made on and off this thread to rewrite the narrative as sure we knew X would happen, it's fine. Or it's X fault for this outcome , or its X's fault for not believing enough, or its X's fault for not letting us have what we want we're special.

Suez pales in comparison to this. We are less than a month in and it's splitting already.

I don't think posts to rewrite the narrative as to who owns it are glib tbh. Own it.

mrunsure · 25-01-2021 1:53pm

sondagefaux wrote: »

Ther's this for starters; non-lucrative visa first, then apply for permanent residency:

You can continue from there if you like.

That is what I said yesterday. For the non-lucrative visa you need to prove income and get health insurance. The first time you apply the visa is for one year. Then you can renew it for a further two years, and then again for another two years. So you need to have the proof of income and health insurance for the first five years. Then you can apply for permanent residency, and at that point I believe you no longer need to prove income and you can use the Spanish public health system.

I spent a lot of time researching this in 2016 when I was in despair, trying to find a way of getting around Brexit. The advantage of this visa is that you don't need to spend the whole year in Spain and you can spend a lot of time in other parts of the Schengen Area as long as you spend half the year in Spain. There is some debate whether you are allowed to remote work using this visa. I was considering getting this visa in the future but I'm now thinking more along the lines of moving to Ireland and getting naturalised after five years. As I said in an earlier post, I would have left in 2016 but my partner wants to continue doing her job in England until retirement.

yagan · 25-01-2021 2:03pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

Arguably Suez was a much greater crisis for both the UK and France geopolitically than Brexit. The three day week was a greater crisis for the UK, if you want to contextualize it more domestically.

Suez was the fag butt end of empires extending far beyond Europe, but Brexit is the biggest geopolitical event to affect Europe since the fall of the Berlin wall and we're not even a month in!

Blue passports is part and parcel of a massive regression by a nation imploding.

sondagefaux · 25-01-2021 2:32pm

mrunsure wrote: »

That is what I said yesterday. For the non-lucrative visa you need to prove income and get health insurance. The first time you apply the visa is for one year. Then you can renew it for a further two years, and then again for another two years. So you need to have the proof of income and health insurance for the first five years. Then you can apply for permanent residency, and at that point I believe you no longer need to prove income and you can use the Spanish public health system.

I spent a lot of time researching this in 2016 when I was in despair, trying to find a way of getting around Brexit. The advantage of this visa is that you don't need to spend the whole year in Spain and you can spend a lot of time in other parts of the Schengen Area as long as you spend half the year in Spain. There is some debate whether you are allowed to remote work using this visa. I was considering getting this visa in the future but I'm now thinking more along the lines of moving to Ireland and getting naturalised after five years. As I said in an earlier post, I would have left in 2016 but my partner wants to continue doing her job in England until retirement.

Naturalised Irish citizenship can be revoked if you live outside Ireland for 7 years or more. You need to confirm you intend to keep it to prevent that from happening.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html#l09afb

kowloon · 25-01-2021 2:43pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

But yeah, blue passports, says absolutely nothing about the impact on business or society generally. It's a glib, self righteous remark with its only intention to show that the author was right.

It does say something when you take into account the EU not forcing them to have burgundy passports.

ancapailldorcha · 25-01-2021 2:47pm

kowloon wrote: »

It does say something when you take into account the EU not forcing them to have burgundy passports.

Croatiains enjoy blue passports. David Cameron didn't even ask for them in his negotiation with the EU.

ArmaniJeanss · 25-01-2021 2:55pm

listermint wrote: »

Attempts are being made on and off this thread to rewrite the narrative as sure we knew X would happen, it's fine. Or it's X fault for this outcome , or its X's fault for not believing enough, or its X's fault for not letting us have what we want we're special.

I love the take by the Express on the idea of the likes of cheese manufacturers setting up a distribution hub in Benelux.

On the face of it, it's such a slam-dunk negative of Brexit that surely no-one could twist it any other way?
But the Express swings it into positive territory with "Brexit: UK creates clever ploy to help British businesses avoid crippling EU red tape"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1387936/Brexit-live-updates-EU-trade-deal-latest-Michael-Gove-House-of-Lords-fishing-row-Macron

Eric Cartman · 25-01-2021 2:59pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the problems in the 1970s UK was a bit more complex than that. A few decades of under investment in the UK manufacturing, plus a poor education system, creeping automation, and a very deep division between the two political parties, plus a huge national debt resulting from the WW II costs not being forgiven, or paid off. As well as that, huge errors in managing the economy led to the UK auto industry making cars nobody wanted, the coal industry running out of coal, the shipbuilding being uncompetitive, etc.

In fact, uncompetitive sums up the whole scene in 70s Britain. No Gov could solve the problems without swingeing austerity. Thatcher delivered that, and basically shut down most of GB north of Watford. Of course, her friends in the City had huge tax cuts to keep them onside.

The unions throwing the weight around definitely accelerated the manufacturing decline and basically marked Britains card as a country where primary activity delivery could never be cost competitive ever again,

but to return to the posters original point, I don't think the 70s was a dark period for workers rights, nor one we're likely to see return under Brexit as they claimed.

listermint · 25-01-2021 3:02pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The unions throwing the weight around definitely accelerated the manufacturing decline and basically marked Britains card as a country where primary activity delivery could never be cost competitive ever again,

but to return to the posters original point, I don't think the 70s was a dark period for workers rights, nor one we're likely to see return under Brexit as they claimed.

Why. We've only seen rollbacks on rights three weeks in.

Example. Working time directive, driving hours.

What specific positives is it that you've have seen to make such a statement and name them.

breezy1985 · 25-01-2021 3:11pm

listermint wrote: »

Why. We've only seen rollbacks on rights three weeks in.

Example. Working time directive, driving hours.

What specific positives is it that you've have seen to make such a statement and name them.

Have they already messed with the working time directive ?

Eric Cartman · 25-01-2021 3:27pm

listermint wrote: »

Why. We've only seen rollbacks on rights three weeks in.

Example. Working time directive, driving hours.

What specific positives is it that you've have seen to make such a statement and name them.

what has change about those in the last 3 weeks ? Im not saying there are positives to Brexit, but don't believe the workers rights and chlorinated chicken apocalypse is coming either.

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 3:35pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

what has change about those in the last 3 weeks ? Im not saying there are positives to Brexit, but don't believe the workers rights and chlorinated chicken apocalypse is coming either.

Yet.

listermint · 25-01-2021 3:40pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Have they already messed with the working time directive ?

Was done and then withdrawn few weeks later. Assuming large backslash from logistics and police.

Eric Cartman · 25-01-2021 3:45pm

listermint wrote: »

Was done and then withdrawn few weeks later. Assuming large backslash from logistics and police.

so we haven't seen a rollback of workers rights in the last 3 weeks....

listermint · 25-01-2021 4:04pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so we haven't seen a rollback of workers rights in the last 3 weeks....

No your wrong. We did it was in place it was splashed across the papers and now withdrawn.

More to come.

I'm waiting for your positive news stories on all the additional rights workers now have and will get. Shoot.

Liberalbrehon · 25-01-2021 4:15pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so we haven't seen a rollback of workers rights in the last 3 weeks....

In fairness it would take longer than 3 weeks but it's in the Tories sights

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/12-unions-warn-boris-johnson-23381319?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

They never liked the 48hr cap.

ancapailldorcha · 25-01-2021 4:18pm

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

In fairness it would take longer than 3 weeks but it's in the Tories sights

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/12-unions-warn-boris-johnson-23381319?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

They never liked the 48hr cap.

They do seem keen to dismantle that alright. No surprise that Kwasi Kwarteng is involved. He's a co-author of Britannia Unchained, a diatribe about how lazy British people are penned by people who were born into privilege.

Professor Moriarty · 25-01-2021 4:27pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They do seem keen to dismantle that alright. No surprise that Kwasi Kwarteng is involved. He's a co-author of Britannia Unchained, a diatribe about how lazy British people are penned by people who were born into privilege.

Co-written by Raab, Patel, Truss, Skidmore and our friend Kwarteng. From Britannia Unchained:

"If we are to take advantage of these opportunities, we must get on the side of the responsible, the hardworking and the brave."

"We must stop bailing out the reckless, avoiding all risk and rewarding laziness."

"Once they enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor."

Igotadose · 25-01-2021 4:27pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so we haven't seen a rollback of workers rights in the last 3 weeks....

Do you seriously think this clownshower of a government would have had the legislation in place on 1/1/2021? They can barely string a sentence together.

Be patient. It will happen. They'll be sly about it, like most governments, but it'll happen.

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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