Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01

the kelt · 20-01-2021 09:45AM

I’m not a teacher but at this stage if I was and looking at how the minister is behaving I’d personally be up in arms and digging my heels in.

She needs to go.

All this stems from her continuously promising things without even consulting with anyone, I mean the joke around Leinster house is if the DOE wee running the coronavirus response we would all be dead!

Just replace her at this stage before her ignorance makes the situation any worse.

Get the contract tracing up and running again for schools, get the budget that they cut for ppe before Christmas reinstated and get teachers etc further up than close to the bottom for vaccinations, numbers down and all kids back.

As a parent I want my kids back in school but as a parent I do not trust that woman with the safety of my children, not one bit.

wirelessdude01 · 20-01-2021 09:46AM

km79 wrote: »

Agreed
Her position is untenable now tbh
She has conquered and divided all of the “education partners “ as planned
Only this time it didn’t have the desired outcome. So now we are left with an unholy mess and nobody has any respect for her or believes anything she says.
It’s too serious Norma for her to remain in charge . She has to go

Also from her interview this morning I cannot see how any of the "partners in education" can in good faith(to use a phrase she has now started peddling) sit down at a table across from her and expect open, honest but most importantly direct dialogue. Direct is an important word here as Norma has a petulant streak in her when she doesn't get her own way and has been known to just get up and leave when she hears something that she doesn't like or agree with.

Norma is a major reason why we are where we are. Refusal to properly engage should mean that Michael Martin needs to remove her from the situation as it stands. Doesn't have to be publicly but maybe make up a sickness or something to feed to the media and that she has to standaside for a short while and someone steps in for a short while and sort the mess out.

the kelt · 20-01-2021 09:47AM

jrosen wrote: »

Well how can you not agree with her? We are up **** creek because people in their droves did exactly what they were asked not too. They were asked to still limit contacts and while many did, there was many who didn’t. In fact it was even said don’t meet friend A on Monday and friend B on Tuesday. It couldn’t have been any clearer and people took the piss. Give an inch ect

But no fault on the government for opening up like they did? Ok then!

paddyirish23 · 20-01-2021 09:47AM

the kelt wrote: »

But they are working, just not how you want them to.

It your fault anyway according to Norma this morning, schools didn’t open because we didn’t reduce our contacts like asked according to her.

We are all to blame, apart from government of course!

And unions, let's give them a pass too while we are at it!
Both sides are to blame here let's be clear about that.

the kelt · 20-01-2021 09:48AM

paddyirish23 wrote: »

And unions, let's give them a pass too while we are at it!
Both sides are to blame here let's be clear about that.

No unions are people too, don’t particularly like unions, refused to join one in the last job I had before this one but they’re more tolerant with this woman and her sidekick than I would be.

It’s basically “we all partied all over again”

You say both side are to blame which is correct but you’re only blaming and having a go at one side!

Looking at how the minister is behaving and the debacle she has overseen overall though the majority of the blame lies with her.

am_zarathustra · 20-01-2021 09:49AM

markodaly wrote: »

I don't want to bring this topic off thread, but I agree in essence with your train of thought, we do not get good value for money here in this country, so why are Teacher Unions always fighting for more pay rather than reform?

E.g. Teachers will end up with pensions far far away much better than anything they will have paid into. This is a fact. So, are you really fighting the value for money angle, or just trying to justify high costs of teachers in Ireland by saying, "Look at the children's hospital!!"

Cost of living in a factor also. Given the we are in the top ten most expensive countries in the world it makes sense wages are higher. As a percentage of of tax take we spend way below average and get results, by all accepted international standards, way above average. Give me another department that's true of? We are one of the top spenders in health and our outcomes do not match.

Irish education is incredibly good value to the tax payer as is. Imagine of they even invested the average amount, or brought class size in line with other countries. Given the current results without this we would easily be looking at one of the best education systems in the word despite the DOE actively trying to disimprove it at every term

Ipads aren't an answer either. Devices have a neutral effect on attainment and are detrimental to kids for poorer backgrounds, roughly you get a 7% drop in attainment. You want programmers.....get good maths teachers. I was one and I teach it now, ipads won't get them to understand arrays.

If teaching was such a sweet gig in ireland we wouldn't be crying out for them in urban areas. We had two full time jobs this year with zero applicants. Every school I'm dublin I know is missing at least a couple of teachers in core subjects. We've at least 3 teachers trachng over timetable in these subjects to ensure that the kids are being taught correctly. All of these teachers are on the new pension, a completely different beast to the old one,, which was fantastic but also meant we had brilliant retention of staff leading to stability for learners. How it's a revolving door. This effects kids with additional needs and those with trauma far more than others.

daydorunrun · 20-01-2021 10:01AM

SusanC10 wrote: »

So when do you all think that Schools will reopen for all students now? Feb 22nd after mid-Term?

I’d imagine not before mid-term anyway.

From my own experience this school closure has been very different to the first. My daughter’s school has been throughly prepared and fully engaged. The teachers were engaged last time but the nature of a quick lockdown and no chance to prepare showed. Still not a patch on in school learning but a lot better.
Kudos to all the teachers around the country for putting in the effort.

paddyirish23 · 20-01-2021 10:04AM

the kelt wrote: »

No unions are people too, don’t particularly like unions, refused to join one in the last job I had before this one but they’re more tolerant with this woman and her sidekick than I would be.

It’s basically “we all partied all over again”

You say both side are to blame which is correct but you’re only blaming and having a go at one side!

Looking at how the minister is behaving and the debacle she has overseen overall though the majority of the blame lies with her.

She certainly has plenty of blame on her hands, not to mention the fact that she's still insisted on going ahead with the leaving cert. Yet another disregard for pupils!

jrosen · 20-01-2021 10:15AM

the kelt wrote: »

But no fault on the government for opening up like they did? Ok then!

Nepht have the luxury of only thinking about the virus and public health. The government don’t have that luxury. They are trying and often loosing to find a balance. People were up in arms with regular statements being made “give us a Christmas” the government made a decision which wasn’t the right one IMO because it was obvious people would take the piss. Which is Exactly what happens. But let’s not be stupid and lay the blame at the governments door when society played a big roll. The government line did not waver through December. It was still “limit your contacts” yet people didn’t in their droves and here we are. We are all paying for the mistakes of some both society wide and government

PJLimerick · 20-01-2021 10:18AM

Midterm I don't think so. It wouldn't surprise me if it continued to the Easter break at start of April. I think they should try and have the Leaving cert. My son is in junior cert and there is no talk if this is going to happen or not. Leaving cert exams should go ahead and just have school assessments for the junior cert. More room then to spread the kids out for the written exams for the leaving cert.

I am just wondering what is going to happen with the mocks after the article appeared below:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40205102.html

Treppen · 20-01-2021 10:29AM

markodaly wrote: »

I don't want to bring this topic off thread, but I agree in essence with your train of thought, we do not get good value for money here in this country, so why are Teacher Unions always fighting for more pay rather than reform?

E.g. Teachers will end up with pensions far far away much better than anything they will have paid into. This is a fact. So, are you really fighting the value for money angle, or just trying to justify high costs of teachers in Ireland by saying, "Look at the children's hospital!!"

New career average pension ensures you barely get what you put in (if even).
That's a fact.
And you can read the report.

http://www.tridentconsulting.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Trident-report.pdf

...and that's assuming a Teacher enters teaching with a full time Job age 21, lol!

No matter anyway, I don't think there is any wage or pension you would be happy for a teacher to get.

markodaly · 20-01-2021 10:31AM

paddyirish23 wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here, the unions won't put themselves over a barrel for the government on this. They don't have to use an official statement to get it around to their members.
Games are being played here on both sides and my child's needs are completely disregarded!

This.

Let us not pretend the Dept. of Education are the paragons of virtue and transparency but at the same time, let's not pretend that the Unions involved arent trying to push their weight around and are above playing these games and using special needs kids as pawns.

In the middle, trapped.... kids with special needs.

Well done to the Dept. of Education and Teachers. We are all proud of you. :rolleyes:

markodaly · 20-01-2021 10:32AM

Norma sticking the knife in.

She said it is a matter of deep regret that the INTO and Fórsa were not happy to recognise the essential needs of children with additional needs and accept the expert public health advice offered to them, even though, she said, the INTO had said on RTÉ’s Prime Time last week that unions would support a return to school, if public health advice supported the move.

So, are teachers better in the know than NEPHET?

monkeybutter · 20-01-2021 10:36AM

markodaly wrote: »

This.

Let us not pretend the Dept. of Education are the paragons of virtue and transparency but at the same time, let's not pretend that the Unions involved arent trying to push their weight around and are above playing these games and using special needs kids as pawns.

In the middle, trapped.... kids with special needs.

Well done to the Dept. of Education and Teachers. We are all proud of you. :rolleyes:

why don't you jump on morning ireland there and sort the whole thing out for us as you have all the answers

markodaly · 20-01-2021 10:42AM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Cost of living in a factor also. Given the we are in the top ten most expensive countries in the world it makes sense wages are higher. As a percentage of of tax take we spend way below average and get results, by all accepted international standards, way above average. Give me another department that's true of? We are one of the top spenders in health and our outcomes do not match.

I agree, but why is that? Why is there so much waste in the PS and we get bad value for money and bad outcomes?

Because for decades we have not truly reformed how we run the Public Services, that is changing work practices, engaging in more IT and automation, getting rid of deadwood and making people accountable on the ground.

The core reason for this is because by and large the Irish Unions are very very strong and no minister or government wants that headache, so its just business as usual for the Government term and the same old problems fester and fester.

Irish education is incredibly good value to the tax payer as is. Imagine of they even invested the average amount, or brought class size in line with other countries. Given the current results without this we would easily be looking at one of the best education systems in the word despite the DOE actively trying to disimprove it at every term

Not sure about that. Ask the average parent if the education system is good value for money when they have to fork out extras for all kinds of things and for grinds because of bad teachers in schools.
Also class sizes are a bit of a red herring, but I would support the unions every day of the week if they agreed to hire more teachers to reduce class sizes if they dropped their pay demands. They wont do that because the Union is made up of teachers who already have a job, so why agree to something that wont really benefit them? At the end of the day, its all about the few €€€ in the back pocket.

Ipads aren't an answer either. Devices have a neutral effect on attainment and are detrimental to kids for poorer backgrounds, roughly you get a 7% drop in attainment. You want programmers.....get good maths teachers. I was one and I teach it now, ipads won't get them to understand arrays.

That was more of a swipe at how we invest in technology and new methods of teaching. The chickens have come home to roost on that during this pandemic.

If teaching was such a sweet gig in ireland we wouldn't be crying out for them in urban areas. We had two full time jobs this year with zero applicants. Every school I'm dublin I know is missing at least a couple of teachers in core subjects. We've at least 3 teachers trachng over timetable in these subjects to ensure that the kids are being taught correctly. All of these teachers are on the new pension, a completely different beast to the old one,, which was fantastic but also meant we had brilliant retention of staff leading to stability for learners. How it's a revolving door. This effects kids with additional needs and those with trauma far more than others.

What core subjects are these? Are they the usual STEM subjects?
This may be news, but the world has a genuine shortage of people in STEM, not just teachers.
Ireland seems to churn out teachers, especially primary schools teachers like butter.

paddyirish23 · 20-01-2021 10:44AM

monkeybutter wrote: »

why don't you jump on morning ireland there and sort the whole thing out for us as you have all the answers

I will. Send the SE schools back at 50% as proposed. End of. Half an education is better than none at this stage!

wirelessdude01 · 20-01-2021 10:56AM

PJLimerick wrote: »

Midterm I don't think so. It wouldn't surprise me if it continued to the Easter break at start of April. I think they should try and have the Leaving cert. My son is in junior cert and there is no talk if this is going to happen or not. Leaving cert exams should go ahead and just have school assessments for the junior cert. More room then to spread the kids out for the written exams for the leaving cert.

I am just wondering what is going to happen with the mocks after the article appeared below:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40205102.html

My neighbour is a secondary teacher and they had already decided back in November not to hold mock exams this year. Said they knew of others who had made the same decision as wll.

20-01-2021 10:57AM

markodaly wrote: »

I agree, but why is that? Why is there so much waste in the PS and we get bad value for money and bad outcomes?

Not sure about that. Ask the average parent if the education system is good value for money when they have to fork out extras for all kinds of things and for grinds because of bad teachers in schools.
Also class sizes are a bit of a red herring, but I would support the unions every day of the week if they agreed to hire more teachers to reduce class sizes if they dropped their pay demands. They wont do that because the Union is made up of teachers who already have a job, so why agree to something that wont really benefit them? At the end of the day, its all about the few €€€ in the back pocket.

So class sizes are not an issue but 1-to-1 grinds are required, and are given by those same bad teachers.

Stateofyou · 20-01-2021 10:58AM

markodaly wrote: »

It goes some way to explain why we have no existing ICT and kids being taught in prefabs. Look at the data, look at where each overall € of publicly funding spend goes to. As a % we pay far more into the pockets of teachers and pensions than we do things like ancillary support, ICT, infrastructure, capital spending etc..

As I have said many a time, this is not an education only issue, it is rampant across all aspect of Irish publicly funded services and institutions.

Disagree all you want but the data backs me up and indeed in this times of Covid, we should really as a society be looking at different ways of doing things rather then each all having the hand out for a pay rise.

For one, I would much rather more SNA's, more places for special needs kids, better ICT, subsided computers or ipads for the disadvantaged, better sports facilities in schools, more teachers in the school teaching, free schools dinners..... if we got away from the obsession of gifting pay rises to teachers every year.

We can do both. We can pay teachers the salary they're worth AND we should be funding the sector properly.

Why do people always do this to each other. Instead of fighting over the scraps the government gives we should unite and demand better for our citizens and our children. After all, education is an *essential* service, we should be treating it like one. Instead we have crumbling buildings, budget shortfalls often made up from pta fundraising and from teachers own pockets, lack of upgraded equipment/books/ any playgrounds, and among the largest class sizes in Europe which numerous studies have shown the best outcomes for all students would involve much smaller ratios.

Stop criticising teachers salaries and look to hold those in charge accountable for their neglect. And from what I've read here, don't even get me started on special needs services.

deiseindublin · 20-01-2021 10:59AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

If you knew what I know about what form those negotiations took and the behaviour and attitude of the two ladies, especially this morning then you'd be laughing.

Why don't unions press this, put it in public domain? (Curiosity killing me too).

lulublue22 · 20-01-2021 11:00AM

paddyirish23 wrote: »

I will. Send the SE schools back at 50% as proposed. End of. Half an education is better than none at this stage!

So you are happy for your child to be prioritised but other children with SN/ AN who don’t attend special schools shouldn’t be / don’t need to be accommodated .
Everyone views things from their own perspective and highlights / prioritises their own needs based on individual circumstances however there is a much broader picture. Special schools are one aspect of the SE area.

Stateofyou · 20-01-2021 11:00AM

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

This is key for me. HSE have confirmed they’ll resume close contact tracing once daily cases are less than 2,000 which we are now at - so assume this will resume this week.

We are well on course to have daily cases less than 1,000 by 1 Feb so assuming we do will teachers come back? We were at that level last October/November with no issues.

Why don’t union just confirm daily cases that they will return ie average that we had sept-dec when schools open with no issues.

WRONG.

Dempo1 · 20-01-2021 11:02AM

Minister Foley surprisingly vocal this morning , normally she's adept at hiding, she's really not helping her cause, Teaching unions don't accept public health advice? and the real ouch comment, they don't see special needs education as essential?

This is not going to end well, I'm just amazed she's lasted this length of time.

Stateofyou · 20-01-2021 11:06AM

Jayden Full Cricket wrote: »

I doubt teachers will go back until September. I think the unions were always looking for a good reason to close the schools and the huge rise in cases since Christmas is it.

Do you have kids in school?

Tpcl20 · 20-01-2021 11:08AM

The division that the department wanted to sow between staff and parents has not worked and it's good to see people looking at the spin for what it really is. I read this article this morning which goes through each of the tactics used to undermine staff:

https://wordpress.com/read/feeds/112368584/posts/3136638092

You would wonder why Norma Foley would go to all these lengths but not actually do the things taht might actually make the schools safer places so that they can reopen.

It reminds me of the episode of Fr Ted where the Eurovision is rigged so that the terrible act gets through to the final because it's costing too much to host. Except it's not funny at all.

Carazy · 20-01-2021 11:09AM

Why are the Unions ignoring and not accepting the Public Health advice and not returning to school?
Are teachers now more knowledgeable than the experts on this virus from all those weeks at home?

the corpo · 20-01-2021 11:09AM

Was shocked by the disdain and contempt dripping from Miriam O'Callaghan last night on this, and I think even Stephen Donnelly was too, he stumbled over himself to say the unions and teachers do actually have concerns that need to be listened to.

I think the unions need to really swiftly lay out the timelines of engagement and what exactly happened in those meetings. Niall Collins was stating over and over again that the level of engagement has been unprecedented (he knows because the Minister told him) but if this is factually not the case, it needs to be loudly demonstrated to the public. Because the mainstream narrative is very swiftly portraying the unions and teachers as evil vultures and will very quickly do serious damage to teacher/family relations.

Stateofyou · 20-01-2021 11:10AM

paddyirish23 wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here, the unions won't put themselves over a barrel for the government on this. They don't have to use an official statement to get it around to their members.
Games are being played here on both sides and my child's needs are completely disregarded!

Your Childs needs have been disregarded by consecutive governments going decades back. And by this current Cabinet/DES in that they have not worked on ANY remote/contingency plans for Irelands school children SN's or not since last March. It's a DISGRACE.

CapriciousOne · 20-01-2021 11:11AM

Carazy wrote: »

Why are the Unions ignoring and not accepting the Public Health advice and not returning to school?
Are teachers now more knowledgeable than the experts on this virus from all those weeks at home?

Bit hypocritical that.

Government to ignore Nphet advice and allow gastro-pubs and restaurants reopen

20-01-2021 11:13AM

How are special schools in NI open

Teachers and SNA want special schools want to get back, in the main they usually know the children and families very well.

So it must be the unions? or what is going on.

Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01