Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Sofa King Great

Lots of teachers dismissing the comparison to other essential workers on the basis that they didn't sign up to deal with that - which is probably fair enough. What is also probably fair is that most students can learn online for a period of time.

But would it not be the case that SNAs did sign up for exactly what is being proposed i.e. hands on caring for children with special needs in an educational environment? Also lots of these kids just cannot access these services remotely via zoom or whatever

wirelessdude01

Carazy wrote: »

Schools were a safe environment then and are still classified as such

Okay Norma. We heard you the first time.

spaceHopper

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/01/new-coronavirus-variant-scrambles-school-risk-calculations

An outbreak of the new variant at a primary school in the Netherlands has undermined that confidence. Tests of 818 teachers, students, and families revealed 123 people—nearly 15%—were infected, just 1 month after the first case was identified at the school, which did not require teachers or children to wear masks. The new variant was responsible for a large fraction of those cases.

But Çevik still thinks schools will be safer than, for example, large groups of adults. “Before the variant, we know primary schools contributed very little to community spread.”

The new variant, B.1.1.7, first emerged in England, and early reports found the highest rates of infection in children, raising fears that they might be especially susceptible. But more recent analyses show the age distribution of B.1.1.7 infections looks similar to that of earlier variants, with many fewer cases diagnosed in children under age 13 than in teens or adults. (The initial surge in children likely appeared because England had shut many parts of the economy, whereas schools remained open.)

Because the new version is up to 50% more infectious than previous variants, however, “we will see many more clusters” of infection, Çevik says.

In the Netherlands, the first case appeared at the Willibrord school in late November 2020 and apparently spread quickly. Ewout Fanoy, a physician at the regional health department in Rotterdam, says reports of multiple cases at the school, which serves students ages 4 to 12, caught their attention in early December. “We were puzzled that there was such a large outbreak among younger children,” he says. “Normally we saw significant outbreaks only at high schools and universities.”

jimmytwotimes 2013

Sofa King Great wrote: »

But would it not be the case that SNAs did sign up for exactly what is being proposed i.e. hands on caring for children with special needs in an educational environment? Also lots of these kids just cannot access these services remotely via zoom or whatever

Fair point but if their job is hands on and close quarters then they shud be vaccinated and given PPE.

SAMTALK

jrosen wrote: »

Just listened to a woman on the radio who said her son is in a special school and doesnt require any of the above. She said his class has 7 and they are well able to social distance.

That's one parent. There are various degrees of special needs

khalessi

mariaalice wrote: »

Only in the last 3 weeks, its not comparing apples and oranges.

Actually speaking as a nurse and a teacher it is incorrect to compare nurses and teachers as they are two very different jobs.

I can work at home as a teacher but as a nurse the last time I brought a patient home ther was an investigation.:D

jimmytwotimes 2013

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Fair point but if their job is hands on and close quarters then they shud be vaccinated and given PPE.

They have PPE and they will be vaccinated.

KrustyUCC

DraftDodger wrote: »

Foley "Teachers get back in to work, your essential frontline"

Teachers "Great so we'll be getting vaccinated like the other essential front line soon"

Foley " No you are 11th on the list not essential at all"

I'd vaccinate all teachers in the morning if I could

Hell I'd even give my essential worker 1st dose to my nephews teacher and go back in the queue a bit

However the vast majority of teachers can quite successfully work from home and the vaccines are finite at this stage

No way should teachers get vaccines before essential workers who have kept working in front facing roles

Bit of an image problem picking and choosing when it's 'safe' to go to work even for the most vulnerable in society, when other essential workers don't have that luxury yet expecting to be bumped up the vaccine list

My friend is a Cork Councillor and he's got a good few emails since last night from angry parents who want teachers to be put bottom of the list so I think that hope of being bumped up the list might get harder

Then again might be easier to sell if teachers go back earlier than people expect and that expectation is lowering by the day

Sofa King Great

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Fair point but if their job is hands on and close quarters then they shud be vaccinated and given PPE.

I would agree that they should be moved up the queue alright. But that isn't to say they should be able to wait until they are vaccinated to go back. Lots of higher risk professions still working while waiting for vaccines

KrustyUCC

khalessi wrote: »

Actually speaking as a nurse and a teacher it is incorrect to compare nurses and teachers as they are two very different jobs.

I can work at home as a teacher but as a nurse the last time I brought a patient home ther was an investigation.:D

Lol

CapriciousOne

jrosen wrote: »

Just listened to a woman on the radio who said her son is in a special school and doesnt require any of the above. She said his class has 7 and they are well able to social distance.

That's all well and good but it is up to the DE to engage and find solutions for all of these different use-cases, instead of lumping all SEN kids together and then pointing the finger at teachers and SNAs when it hasn't worked out. They haven't bothered.

jimmytwotimes 2013

mariaalice wrote: »

They have PPE and they will be vaccinated.

SEN teachers in mainstream schools don't. When they're vaccinated they can go back.

fits

CapriciousOne wrote: »

Supermarket staff, drivers, etc. don't have to provide intimate care to children who in a lot of cases are unable to wear masks or communicate if they are feeling unwell. This includes helping them to go to the bathroom, to eat, etc.

Find another strawman.

Supermarket staff are exposed to a lot more people throughout the day so the risks have to be much higher. But they also won’t get paid if they don’t turn up for work.

khalessi

fits wrote: »

Supermarket staff are exposed to a lot more people throughout the day so the risks have to be much higher. But they also won’t get paid if they don’t turn up for work.

High celings, big spaces, limited numbers, ppe , screens, social distancing, stop go systems in some of them

fits

khalessi wrote: »

High celings, big spaces, limited numbers, ppe , screens, social distancing, stop go systems in some of them

So which would you choose for covid risk?
Care of 1-2 students or full day in supermarket?

Icyseanfitz

Birdy wrote: »

Josepha just said that SNA's cannot work remotely.

I better stop working so

CapriciousOne

fits wrote: »

Supermarket staff are exposed to a lot more people throughout the day so the risks have to be much higher. But they also won’t get paid if they don’t turn up for work.

Not when social distancing and mask wearing is adhered to, which it should be. At the risk of beating a dead horse - social distancing is impossible in a lot of SEN schools.

Regarding your snipe about pay - again, the vast majority of SEN schools are working as we speak; remotely.

SAMTALK

fits wrote: »

So which would you choose for covid risk?
Care of 1-2 students or full day in supermarket?

Providing customers didnt hug me, hold my hand, ask to be taken to the toilet, spit at me when they get frustrated I'd go with supermarket for the day

MacDanger

Is there a list of demands/requirements that the teaching unions have for going back to work for special needs kids?

wirelessdude01

khalessi wrote: »

High celings, big spaces, limited numbers, ppe , screens, social distancing, stop go systems in some of them

Limited capacity. I can't remember the last time I didn't have to queue to enter either Tesco or Aldi.

Tpcl20

MacDanger wrote: »

Is there a list of demands/requirements that the teaching unions have for going back to work for special needs kids?

From the response to the statement by the Department of Education, worth a read and located here:
https://wordpress.com/read/feeds/112368584/posts/3136638092

(Department) In this context it is considered that schools could reopen for priority groups such as special needs children who are unable to engage in remote teaching, as school closures has significant impacts on children with special educational needs. While the general advice is that people stay at home, this does not apply to essential workers providing an essential service.

(Response) This is a very admirable sentiment. As of today, January 20th, (since before the New Year) the Irish contact tracing system is still over-stretched and unable to test close contacts of confirmed cases. As such, reopening even some schools, and even with limited numbers, would be creating a new major avenue of transmission of Covid 19 which we do not have the means to contain. The day-to-day reality in special needs classrooms requires that individuals be physically proximal. Children with special needs can be unpredictable in their behaviour and it is an almost impossible task to keep the required infection prevention and control measures in place.


Despite the clear public health advice

To stay at home? To socially distance? To ensure hands are clean and not to touch your face? That the level of transmission in September was low? That the contact tracing system failed several times during the previous terms? That schools are safe places? There is so much revealing public health advice to choose from. It seems that the likes of Philip Nolan could extrapolate anything he wants from the data. After all, “children in school usually only come into contact with five or six other children each day”.

and the measures put in place by the Department

Childcare. Check. A webinar about how schools were safe in September. Check.

Increased budget for cleaning and heating? Improved systems of ventilation? Vaccination prioritisation for school staff? Reliable contact tracing? Transparent data around transmission in schools? No, none of those things.

to support schools in maintaining a safe return for this cohort of students and the public support from the unions to a shared ambition to return

Provided the above-mentioned safeguarding measures be fulfilled, which they have not been.

there is still no commitment from the primary teacher and SNA trade unions INTO and FORSA to advise their members to commence the limited return of in-person learning for children with special educational needs.

Due to the failure of the Department of Education to meet their requirements.

Some of the requests, as outlined by the unions:



This is in the context of the Department seeking to support in school provision for just over 23,000 children with SEN (or just 4% of those who would attend during a full re-opening). These children are those who experience the greatest difficulty benefiting from remote learning.

Wouldn’t it have been nice if they had an education system which facilitated their safe return instead of stymieing any attempt and failing to make the required safety improvements.

Honestly so many people are asking what they think are smart questions and everything is answered in that article.

jimmytwotimes 2013

fits wrote: »

So which would you choose for covid risk?
Care of 1-2 students or full day in supermarket?

These 1 or 2 students might need assistance getting out of wheelchairs, need help eating, might need physical interaction, might bite etc?

Is there a choice?

fits

SAMTALK wrote: »

Providing customers didnt hug me, hold my hand, ask to be taken to the toilet, spit at me when they get frustrated I'd go with supermarket for the day

The chances of any one student having covid at any time is minimal. It doesn’t matter whether intimate care is required or not if in the same space and I find bringing this into the argument which is hardly representative of all students by the way a pretty nasty and repulsive attitude.

khalessi

fits wrote: »

The chances of any one student having covid at any time is minimal. It doesn’t matter whether intimate care is required or not if in the same space and I find bringing this into the argument which is hardly representative of all students by the way a pretty nasty and repulsive attitude.

THat is incorrect, a school had 1 positive case in a class whole class tested 7 other children positive and asymptomatic

Wombatman

A clear, detailed and current statement from NPHET, specifically addressing the schools issue, is vital here. It would put a stop to much of the wrangling. NPHET have been deliberately evasive on the issue, most likely because the inevitable advice will be at odds with government objectives.

fits

khalessi wrote: »

THat is incorrect, a school had 1 positive case in a class whole class tested 7 other children positive and asymptomatic

We aren’t talking about full classes here.

the corpo

mariaalice wrote: »

Fair enough if SNA and teachers have issues.

But anyone or any organisation who is using this as a power play or who would use this issue to get at the department is the lowest of the low.

But that literally isn't happening. INTO and FORSA are saying their SNA members believe they will not be safe, and the Department isn't successfully alleviating those fears.

INTO and FORSA are clearly, for once maybe, acting on behalf of those members concerns.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Wombatman wrote: »

A clear, detailed and current statement from NPHET, specifically addressing the schools issue, is vital here. It would put a stop to much of the wrangling. NPHET have been deliberately evasive on the issue, most likely because the inevitable advice will be at odds with government objectives.

I'd be thinking the same. Norma keeps saying schools are safe. If Tony said it with the same veracity, then people might listen, but he hasn't.

Icyseanfitz

Sofa King Great wrote: »

Lots of teachers dismissing the comparison to other essential workers on the basis that they didn't sign up to deal with that - which is probably fair enough. What is also probably fair is that most students can learn online for a period of time.

But would it not be the case that SNAs did sign up for exactly what is being proposed i.e. hands on caring for children with special needs in an educational environment? Also lots of these kids just cannot access these services remotely via zoom or whatever

We are not in a medical nor viral role, we address care needs and assist with educational needs. We have zero training in contagion measures.

CapriciousOne

fits wrote: »

The chances of any one student having covid at any time is minimal. It doesn’t matter whether intimate care is required or not if in the same space and I find bringing this into the argument which is hardly representative of all students by the way a pretty nasty and repulsive attitude.

Source?

Covid-19 cases reported in all NI special schools