Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Munsterlad102 · 09-01-2021 2:23pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yet it contradicts itself in so much as an open critique of public figures and the govt is allowed as constitutional? Possibly is it the way it is expressed.IE if I say Leo Vard a Homosexula who enjoys and performs gay sex? All of which, is a true statement?
Compared to saying he is a raving f...gott who enjoys..getting it... etc "The statement while also true,is expressing to shock and offend the public. So the nuance proably has to be taken into this "hate speech" as well. But then as Cass said;Whats "offensive" to you mightn't be offensive to me at all. Who decides?

More worrisome would be like in the UK liking or agreeing with a FB comment or twitter getting a call from the thought police to "check your thinking!"

Yeah, that's a very good point. Even disputing historical events or their accuracy or commonly held beliefs could be classed as hate speech, like saying 500 years ago that the Earth was not the center of the universe could be classed as hate speech.

Also let's not forget how this law will impact of people's freedom of religion. Most religions have a group of people who are viewed as "reprobate". Would a Christian saying gays are going to hell be hate speech? Would a Muslim saying anyone who eats pork should be killed and is going to hell be hate speech? Would a Jew saying Gentiles are animals and can be treated as such be hate speech? All examples just float an idea, rather than directly threaten anyone.

If the government is going to ban certain speech, then are they going to listen to ordinary people in their own homes and swoop in if they say a no-no word? That's more of a severe, dystopian scenario but possible nonetheless.

Ultimately is restricting people's speech worth it or should we ignore any such notion, I think the latter is the only viable path.

Cass · 09-01-2021 2:33pm

yubabill wrote: »

Been following events in the US and keeping really busy in an effort to stay sane.

Its hard to not get involved but i know what you mean.

Frankly i'm glad Trump is gone, for one reason. Hopefully no more endless news cycles on him. Its tiring.

Looks like a powder keg over there right now and hysteria is setting in.

Could get four years of payback now biden is in office.

And the Twitter ban was a bit much, IMHO.

They have gone to town, banning a lot o conservative pages.

Somebody needs to calm things down - but WHO can?

Well the Dems fake cries for unity didn't last long with the calls for his [Trump] arrest, impeachment, removal from office, etc. Less than two weeks before the inauguration.

So won't come from that side.

As for conservatives, doubt it. They won't want to flame their base any more than they already have.

yubabill · 09-01-2021 3:07pm

Cass wrote: »

They have gone to town, banning a lot o conservative pages.

Twitter has permanently banned Donald Trump, deleted all his tweets and activity. He's also blocked on FB and Instagram.

Trump moved to Parler and Google immediately removed it from their app store for Android phones, apple is threatening to remove Parler from their app store unless they agree to moderate it per Apple (so it'll be gone there soon).

It's being called The Purge, that many were anticipating, Tim Pool reckons he'll be gone from Youtube soon and he's centre-left politically, but supported Trump because of troop withdrawals.

Cass · 09-01-2021 3:30pm

yubabill wrote: »

It's being called The Purge, that many were anticipating, .

They have their Democrat buddies in the white house, congress and now senate to support any action they take. So why not!.

Cass · 09-01-2021 3:32pm

Had to laugh when someone stuck up a picture of the guys that raided capital building and said:

"We [America] spend $750 Billion per year on defense and the capital was taken in two hours by the cast of Duck Dynasty and some guy wearing a Chewbacca onesie".

Grizzly 45 · 09-01-2021 4:12pm

Getting scary over there now. I lived over there thru the Clinton dictatorship and the crime bill of 1994,Waco and Ruby ridge, with trepidation,but at least there was a viable block in Congress on the Republican side

What is happening now over there is starting to fill me with dread,as there really is now ZERO forms of opposition in the system to the Democrats for at least another two years, with both houses Blue and the White house the same and already people are talking about a night of the long knives being pulled on those Republicans who supported Trump, with them being suspended and blocked on social media. Removing Parler from Google and Apple is just showing how much intimidation is going on by big tech
Invoking the 25th will now only aggravate this even further if they insist on removing Trump, and I can really see something kick off if they push this further.

tudderone · 09-01-2021 4:27pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Getting scary over there now. I lived over there thru the Clinton dictatorship and the crime bill of 1994,Waco and Ruby ridge, with trepidation,but at least there was a viable block in Congress on the Republican side

What is happening now over there is starting to fill me with dread,as there really is now ZERO forms of opposition in the system to the Democrats for at least another two years, with both houses Blue and the White house the same and already people are talking about a night of the long knives being pulled on those Republicans who supported Trump, with them being suspended and blocked on social media. Removing Parler from Google and Apple is just showing how much intimidation is going on by big tech
Invoking the 25th will now only aggravate this even further if they insist on removing Trump, and I can really see something kick off if they push this further.

I would tend to agree, especially with a lot of people literally armed to the teeth and being told the commies are coming for your guns and money. Both sides have gone to the extremes now the left with BLM and Antifa, and the right storming the white house etc.

Cass · 09-01-2021 8:13pm

yubabill wrote: »

Twitter has permanently banned Donald Trump, ..........

137676736_3713555488725281_3031192716973462234_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=QnwVuPvbJTIAX90PQUV&_nc_ht=scontent-dub4-1.xx&oh=dd2041bc553b295efc2d6a8341e6f6ac&oe=60211CD6

Cass · 09-01-2021 8:45pm

This is more of the same ould shi*e.

The Irish, in their never ending pitch to be seen as Democrats, latch onto any semblance of being an extension of that party. Irish news media are telling the story of an Irish guy who works at CNN and was on scene during the capital incident. The self ingratiating comments make the story about the reporter and not the actual story which most reporters, at least those few with integrity, would have told you is not actual reporting.

The other part of this is his previous experience was fact checking and researching background information, including on social media, for CNN. Might not want to give up the day job son.

Cass · 09-01-2021 8:47pm

On a side note, try search for ANY video, and there were hundreds if not thousands, of when cnn lied, manipulated and edited footage over the past 30 years. All the videos, and i've watched a good many of them over the years, are now gone.

There is a serious "clean up" being done.

tudderone · 09-01-2021 9:01pm

CNN ? Clinton news network/communist news network. The right-on lot here think the Irish-Americans vote exclusively for the dem's, i believe this isn't true anymore and hasn't been for some years.

Grizzly 45 · 09-01-2021 9:12pm

Mellor wrote: »

There are likely a small amount of fraudulent votes in every election.
Since the election Trump has tried to claim he won states that he clearly lost. He has told outright lies. This is not of a democratic leader behaves. (Par for the course for certain parts of the world obviously).

I'm sorry but on that point, we will have to disagree. There is now too much circumstantial,to hardening evidence that there was more than just minor vote tampering going on. Strange for a candidate to improve his vote by double of what he got in his initial election and win 17 of 18 of the Bell weather states as to who will win an election to lose?

Obvious it’s a non-starter. The military is not getting involved.
The fact it was even thrown about as an idea is the insanity.

Brainstorming sessions do bring up weird and wonderful,and the fact that both Trump and Gulliani vetoed it outright.But of course, it is the fact that it was mentioned and used by the MSM is now part of the course.

Funny that the same MSM have downplayed crazy cat lady Pelosi, writing to the JSOC demanding to know that the nuke launch codes are safe from Trump,just in case he decides to touch off Armageddon before leaving office This Thursday last.
The fact that Pelosi is actually the 3rd in line to access the launch code should both POTUS and VP be out of action, and should know how this entire system works is even more alarming. but maybe she forgot, the same way Hillary "misplaced" those said same launch codes during her term as Sec of state?Trivial really.

No he couldn’t. Pence has confirmed that, as have constitutional law experts as Harvard and other law schools. His role is largely ceremonial. No such power exists in the constitution. Nor the Electoral Count Act 1887

.

The electoral count act of 1887 is described as the most incomprehensible act in the entire US law system,and people are still battering their much smarter legal heads about how this one works.Be they Harvard trained or otherwise. It's where this whole thing of the TV drama "designated survivor"in a simplified format comes from.The fact that in certain scenarios the person in charge of the dept of Agriculture could out rank the speaker of the House in a national crisis or times of war speaks for itself:eek:, it's that convoluted. So I think what happened was Pence was trying to be all things to all people,as he said they would listen to the evidence of fraud,but did also have the power to say to refer the counts back to the states in any doubt.

Jefferson didn’t reject any votes. He didn’t have the power then either. In his case an envelope containing votes for Georgia, was not sign as required. Some claimed this made them technically invalid, but Jefferson counted the votes anyway as they were the will of the people.
None of that in anyway gives Pence the power to reject the election.
They would only fly in a dictatorship.

I'll leave that one up to smarter constitutional heads. However, I still maintain there is precedent. If anyone is smarter after reading this and can give an opinion...lets have it.
http://hnn.us/articles/36528.html
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/thomas-jefferson-aaron-burr-and-the-election-of-1800-131082359/

I don’t think Facebook or Twitter is obligated to give anyone a platform. Spreading lies seems to be the fastest way to get kicked off. As Alex Jones found out.

As both claim to be the free market place of ideas, they need to decide whether they are publishers or proponents of freedom of expression? Also,it is a double standard in extremis, if they are censoring the conservatives accounts, but have left people like Maxine walters, Kamela Harris, Nancy Pelosi, Omar Atlib, et all totally alone to incite violence all Summer.As well as now putting pressure on companies like Apple and Google to drop off their app stores apps for Me We and Parler. We have now got to the point that CNN wants Fox news taken off the air!

The pornhub claim sounds like a stretch.
Literally anyone would be able to see it. They wouldn’t need his laptop or to be a Russian spy.

No the fact is that Hunter was sloppy as a crack head with extremely damaging information when his ol man was VP and that the Russians and Chinese have this info to be able to be used as blackmail is the more damaging to the incoming administration.The pornhub acc is Hunter's own stupidity of him having it off with a minor and putting it on the account.

Sounds a little like a re-hash of the “Trump Pee-tape in the hands of the Russians” story.

err...If tHAT story had been true...Dont you think it would have been smeared all over the net and MSM by now?

yubabill · 09-01-2021 9:48pm

Slick Willie lost the nuke codes, Hillary lost the emails.

Grizzly 45 · 09-01-2021 9:52pm

tudderone wrote: »

CNN ? Clinton news network/communist news network. The right-on lot here think the Irish-Americans vote exclusively for the dem's, i believe this isn't true anymore and hasn't been for some years.

Even African Americans were beginning to see sense under Trump, that they were being played for fools and are getting off the Democrat plantation...Wonder how long it will be for us Irish to get over our inferiority complexes, realise the Dem party is NOT the same one JFK belonged to 60 years ago, and that every American plastic paddy that comes along looking for his "Irish roots and family "is playing us for fools back in the American Irish" [mostly Dem] voting block,and has no intention whatsoever to make it easier for our "narrow backs" to get visas and work permits.
Its long past time we Irish get of the Democrat plantation as well:mad:

yubabill · 09-01-2021 9:53pm

Cass wrote: »

On a side note, try search for ANY video, and there were hundreds if not thousands, of when cnn lied, manipulated and edited footage over the past 30 years. All the videos, and i've watched a good many of them over the years, are now gone.

There is a serious "clean up" being done.

The Purge is on, alright - since yesterday I can see thumbnails of new vids on Youtube, but if they're even tangentially "controversial" I can't open them on my TV. It gets locked-up and the only thing I can do is the IT Crowd thing.
Probably only a "mistake" or a software "glitch" or "human error".

Heard that Twitter signed its own death warrant by banning Trump; with 88.7million followers, apparently most activity was either praise or criticism of him and given that Twitter has only ballpark 300million users.......

tudderone · 09-01-2021 10:46pm

Zuckerberg spent something like $400 million during the election to get minority voters out to vote in marginals. He is and was always in the Biden camp.

tudderone · 10-01-2021 12:12am

Mean while back at the eu :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A17H9IoSTr4

Mellor · 10-01-2021 7:22am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'm sorry but on that point, we will have to disagree. There is now too much circumstantial,to hardening evidence that there was more than just minor vote tampering going on. Strange for a candidate to improve his vote by double of what he got in his initial election and win 17 of 18 of the Bell weather states as to who will win an election to lose?

What I initial election? There was only one election.

Prior to the election, Biden was a huge favourite. It’s hardly shocking that a favourite wins battleground states.
He would have been a bigger favourite if it wasn’t for delusional money on trump. People were still betting 100s of millions against Biden for weeks after the election. That’s insane.

Funny that the same MSM have downplayed crazy cat lady Pelosi, writing to the JSOC demanding to know that the nuke launch codes are safe from Trump,just in case he decides to touch off Armageddon before leaving office This Thursday last.
The fact that Pelosi is actually the 3rd in line to access the launch code should both POTUS and VP be out of action, and should know how this entire system works is even more alarming. but maybe she forgot, the same way Hillary "misplaced" those said same launch codes during her term as Sec of state?Trivial really.

This is just more finger pointing in an attempt to deflect. Stupidity on one side doesn’t excuse stupidity on another. This is largely the problem with polarised politics. It’s worse than football fans.

The electoral count act of 1887 is described as the most incomprehensible act in the entire US law system,and people are still battering their much smarter legal heads about how this one works.Be they Harvard trained or otherwise. It's where this whole thing of the TV drama "designated survivor"in a simplified format comes from.The fact that in certain scenarios the person in charge of the dept of Agriculture could out rank the speaker of the House in a national crisis or times of war speaks for itself:eek:, it's that convoluted. So I think what happened was Pence was trying to be all things to all people,as he said they would listen to the evidence of fraud,but did also have the power to say to refer the counts back to the states in any doubt.

Regardless of his convoluted it is, it doesn’t give him these powers. Can you point to any source that says it does?
The VP’s role comes from the constitution. Which previously you described as a very clear document in plain English. In simple terms it doesn’t give him these powers. And as far as I know, the VP has never sent it back - open to correct on that, but should be well documented if it happened.

As both claim to be the free market place of ideas, they need to decide whether they are publishers or proponents of freedom of expression?

I don’t think either claims that. They are social media websites, and ultimately private companies.
No different to boards.ie and the fact they choose to disallow certain content.

Freedom of expression means I can write a book on the virtues of grave robbing and voodoo, if I wished. But it doesn’t mean that I can walk into Harper Colins and demand they publish it.

Also,it is a double standard in extremis, if they are censoring the conservatives accounts, but have left people like Maxine walters, Kamela Harris, Nancy Pelosi, Omar Atlib, et all totally alone to incite violence all Summer.As well as now putting pressure on companies like Apple and Google to drop off their app stores apps for Me We and Parler. We have now got to the point that CNN wants Fox news taken off the air!

Of course it’s a double standard. Almost every single opinion is bias. Personal or corporate.
CNN have double standards to the left.
Fox’s have double standards to the right.

I personally try to be centrist. But that increasingly difficult to know the line.

The pornhub acc is Hunter's own stupidity of him having it off with a minor and putting it on the account.

Nobody could be that idiotic.
If that were true, then the link to the video would be all over the net by now. Anyone could view it. He’d not escape a conviction.
And if it is true, should be trivial to link to his account.

err...If tHAT story had been true...Dont you think it would have been smeared all over the net and MSM by now?

How would it?
The story was that the FSB/KGB had the hotel under surveillance. It’s the exact same as the Hunter compromised scenario. IF they have that video, they would have used it to squeeze Trump. Giving it away to the media means they lose that leverage. I shouldn’t have to point that out, everyone gets that’s the implication.

Cass · 10-01-2021 12:48pm

Fixed this for you

Mellor wrote: »

CNN, MSNBC, NBS, CBS, ABC, NBC, Twitter, Facebook Google, Bloomberg, NY Times, Huff Post, TMZ, Time Mag, etc. have double standards to the left.

Fox's have double standards to the right and now the left.

Recent tweet from the director of political affairs for ABC news media;

Rick Klein wrote:

"Even aside from impeachment and 25th Amendment talk, Trump will be an ex-president in 13 days. The fact is that getting rid of Trump is the easy part. Cleansing the movement he commands, or getting rid of what he represents to so many Americans, is going to be something else."

Klein first edited the post then removed it. However he is not the only one to now use the incoming administration as a tool to get their way and speak their mind.

Jeff Zucker, President of CNN, has made calls to have Fox news and Newsmax banned for allowing and reporting on Trump, iow being n opposing voice.

Another side aspect of this is the video Tucker Carlson, of Fox news, made reporting on this (as well as mocking it) cannot be found on Youtube.

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6221445313001?playlist_id=5198073478001#sp=show-clips

So more unity and coming together speak from the tolerant left. :rolleyes:

Cass · 10-01-2021 1:41pm

By the way i'm not getting into a pissing match as to who is more bias because frankly i don't trust any news media with an agenda, and they all have one.

Look at SKY news. Last night they allowed Killary Clinton to go on an unedited rant about how Trump has failed people which included her still moaning and whining about loosing 4 years ago. She focused in on black people and how Trump failed them specifically with his white supremacist attitude/actions. This from a woman that called black youths Superpredators and whos' husband signed the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, which is widely accepted as being responsible for a disproportionate rate of black incarceration.

We have the same with RTE here. They purposely do not report on topics that the Government do not want broadcast. Ranging from racial tensions (the black attacks on white youths last year), to Government actions (denial of bank bailout, waste of taxpayer monies, etc) and of course the best one being the relentless attacks on opposition at a disproportionate rate to the two main parties.

Mellor · 10-01-2021 3:39pm

Cass wrote: »

By the way i'm not getting into a pissing match as to who is more bias because frankly i don't trust any news media with an agenda, and they all have one.

I post wasn’t about the media. I just used CNN and Fox as examples. You list isn’t exhaustive either, but you get into some really dodgy sites when you go far right.

The point was that when people are aligned to a side. Either side. They have bias to that side.
Example being people criticising X. But then giving Y a pass on for the opposite reasoning.

As an aside, I haven’t had Fox News turned on since November. Definitely were not left leaning that week. Has that changed?

Cass · 10-01-2021 4:36pm

Mellor wrote: »

I post wasn’t about the media.

I seen the "personal or corporate" comment but as i cannot quote or substantiate every single persons bias, nor would i attempt to, i can only direct my response towards media.

I just used CNN and Fox as examples. You list isn’t exhaustive either, but you get into some really dodgy sites when you go far right.

No its not, but i'm focusing on so called main stream media, although Huff Post and TMZ may not fall into that category precisely, my point was out of the 6 major news corporations 5 of them, and all the channels/companies they control, are biased towards left leaning/Democratic party values and opinions.

IOW even the bias is biased.

The point was that when people are aligned to a side. Either side. They have bias to that side.

Of course.

Example being people criticizing X. But then giving Y a pass on for the opposite reasoning.

I don't follow. Perhaps i'm missing the context here. Criticizing X but giving Y a pass for the opposite reasoning. Do you mean criticizing X but giving Y a pass for the same reasoning? If it were the opposite reasoning then its fair to criticize X and not Y as the two situations are not the same.

If you mean the same reasoning then yes i agree its a double standard and one that is all too common in modern day, so called, reporting.

As an aside, I haven’t had Fox News turned on since November. Definitely were not left leaning that week. Has that changed?

Leaning, albeit barely just, but leaning none the less. So much so ratings have dropped significantly and people are turning to more conservative channels that are "truer" to their values.

I used to watch Fox, granted infrequently, as they tried to hold true to the values of reporting and letting the viewer decide. Their fact based reporting made them seem cold, and it did not have the same moral outrage/virtue signaling appeal of other channels. Some hosts had a bias but i ignore them as quick as those on the "other side".

Mellor · 11-01-2021 12:57am

Cass wrote: »

I seen the "personal or corporate" comment but as i cannot quote or substantiate every single persons bias, nor would i attempt to, i can only direct my response towards media.

I wouldn't attempt to substantiate every single persons bias. As I don't read or interact with every single person.
But it's quite easy to identify bias in those posts that we do interact with.

Media is one issue. But with so much content published these days being user driven, I think personal bias is becoming a bigger one. It's quite easy for people to constructed an echo chamber that reinforces whatever view they want to confirm.
I think it's health to have those views challenged by being exposed to a cross section of views.

No its not, but i'm focusing on so called main stream media, although Huff Post and TMZ may not fall into that category precisely, my point was out of the 6 major news corporations 5 of them, and all the channels/companies they control, are biased towards left leaning/Democratic party values and opinions.

I'm not TMZ counts as "news". I would have thought they were more tabloid/reality TV based. Gutter journalism, populist and flip with the wind. So they are right a few years ago, lect now and will be right mid-term.
NYP and the WSJ would be the other major right media.

Statistically neutral is the most under represented. Which I think sums up the issues in a neat bundle.

I don't follow. Perhaps i'm missing the context here. Criticizing X but giving Y a pass for the opposite reasoning. Do you mean criticizing X but giving Y a pass for the same reasoning? If it were the opposite reasoning then its fair to criticize X and not Y as the two situations are not the same.

Reasoning is what the observer uses to justify or condemn an action.
Using one reasoning to justify an action by one person, then using conflicting or opposite reasoning to condemn the same action by another person is a huge double standard. And is extremely common.

Cass · 11-01-2021 2:06am

Mellor wrote: »

Media is one issue.

Media is the main issue. What is that old saying, "Never argue with someone that buys ink by the barrel". A little outdated but the concept, and meaning, is still valid.

But with so much content published these days being user driven, I think personal bias is becoming a bigger one. It's quite easy for people to constructed an echo chamber that reinforces whatever view they want to confirm.

Individual bias can form in a number of ways including, but not limited to, upbringing, family, religious beliefs, learned behaviour/belief, friends, social circles, but the biggest factor in everyone's day is the media.

I've never seen a time when people have access to so much information but are so ignorant. That stems back to what you were saying about confirmation bias, but when you have (and its happening right now) the bulk of the media (including social media) trying and, successfully, silencing any opposing opinions, refusing to debate (instead opting for screaming) and essentially sticking their fingers in their ears to any opposing argument then you will surround yourself with similar views all the time and reinforce those beliefs, however right or wrong they are.

That is what media, and again i'm referring to all media including social, is doing right now.

I think it's health to have those views challenged by being exposed to a cross section of views.

But that is not happening.

Today Irish youtuber Dave Cullen had his channel, 500,000 subscribers and 100 million views, shut down. Gone. He is a right leaning conservative who dared to question the effectiveness and science behind the continued lockdowns. Youtube gave him the usual "goes against community standards" spiel and that was that.

Dolores Cahill. A lady with a degree in Molecular Genetics from Trinity College and a PhD in Immunology had videos taken down from Youtube and other social media becuase she dared to challenge the main stream narrative on the disease, the effectiveness of the attempts to combat it and for her opinions which differed again from the main narrative.

You don't have to like or agree with these opinions, but like the hate speech laws we were speaking about earlier in this thread this is not fair and impartial discussion or debate, its outright censorship of any opposing arguments by those that control the medium through which such opinions can be dispersed.

Now here is the kicker. You tell enough people, for long enough, that something is going to happen (in any facet of life) and those that believed it already will become entrenched, those in the middle will start to lean towards that view point, and those opposed will be labelled fascists, bigots, deniers, conspiracy nuts, etc, etc.

Statistically neutral is the most under represented. Which I think sums up the issues in a neat bundle.

Those that would consider themselves neutral are not really, but even if they were they cannot be seen to be by either side, right or left. So they become the silent section of society. Afraid to rock the boat or voice their opinions for fear of being mocked, lectured or worse.

Look at the abortion referendum in 2018. I spoke to friends, family, and some people in general for a few weeks after that referendum and I cannot tell you how many people i spoke to that fell into three categories:

Didn't vote because they thought it was not their business (mostly men for some stupid fecking reason)
Didn't vote because they were afraid it would become known they chose to vote against it
Did vote for it but said afterwards they really wanted to vote against it but were "pressured" into it

If you break the voting numbers down it looks like this. 3.5 million registered voters. 61% turnout (roughly 2.5 million), and 64% voted to murder babies (1.36 million). As a percentage of the registered voters it comes to 39%. IOW less than a majority. As a percentage of the entire population, not that its really relevant to those that cannot vote, but its 28%.

What has all this to do with the topic at hand? Pressure and manipulation through edited and targeted media (again including social). Abortion was sold as this last gasp, only in emergencies, procedure when in fact it has turned out to be quite the opposite with a reported 6,500+ babies killed in 2019. Even those that voted for it and were quite set in their convictions have said (to me in conversation) that they are now not so sure or have completely changed their minds.

And is extremely common.

Yup, on both sides too, and is happening right now, again.

Mellor · 11-01-2021 2:53am

Cass wrote: »

Media is the main issue. What is that old saying, "Never argue with someone that buys ink by the barrel". A little outdated but the concept, and meaning, is still valid.

Never heard that, but I like it.

I've never seen a time when people have access to so much information but are so ignorant. That stems back to what you were saying about confirmation bias, but when you have (and its happening right now) the bulk of the media (including social media) trying and, successfully, silencing any opposing opinions, refusing to debate (instead opting for screaming) and essentially sticking their fingers in their ears to any opposing argument then you will surround yourself with similar views all the time and reinforce those beliefs, however right or wrong they are.

I agree with include social media. A far bigger contributor to ignorance than mainstream media right now. And the biggest issue is not censorship. It's that all sorts of crap can be posted. Some real, some fake, some ignorant, and some intentionally misleading.

Someone can make up a lie, make it into a flashy meme or graphic, and it goes viral very quickly if it fits a world-view that people want to believe. People are doing this for fun these days. Remember chain letters and emails in the early 2000s. Send this to 10 people or a loved one dies. The same thing is happening in social media. Individuals make up fake stats/news/whatever. I don't know what kicks they get out of it. But it's incredibly damaging.

The amount of nonsense I've heard people quoting as "fact" in the last year is shocking. Stuff that takes 2 seconds to fact check or disprove. But people don't want to check if it fits the agenda, and checking can only take away the juicy gossip.

You don't have to like or agree with these opinions, but like the hate speech laws we were speaking about earlier in this thread this is not fair and impartial discussion or debate, its outright censorship of any opposing arguments by those that control the medium through which such opinions can be dispersed.

Just to be clear, I'm not ok with censorship. Opposing views are healthy. People are entitled to a view or opinion. I think deliberate misinformation is not the same as opinion. Opinion should not be stifled.

Notwithstanding, I don't think it's ok for a head of state/government to intentionally lie to the public, in any circumstances. In that situation it's not simply about freedom of expression. There is duty to the office and to the people.

Those that would consider themselves neutral are not really, but even if they were they cannot be seen to be by either side, right or left. So they become the silent section of society. Afraid to rock the boat or voice their opinions for fear of being mocked, lectured or worse.

Why should they be afraid?

The right are afraid to be lectured by the left.
The left aren't afraid to be lectured by the right.
Why should the centre be afraid to be lectured by either.

Extreme view are rarely right or optimal. I'd go as far to say never.

Look at the abortion referendum in 2018. I spoke to friends, family, and some people in general for a few weeks after that referendum and I cannot tell you how many people i spoke to that fell into three categories:
Didn't vote because they thought it was not their business (mostly men for some stupid fecking reason)

Didn't vote because they were afraid it would become known they chose to vote against it

Did vote for it but said afterwards they really wanted to vote against it but were "pressured" into it

If you break the voting numbers down it looks like this. 3.5 million registered voters. 61% turnout (roughly 2.5 million), and 64% voted to murder babies (1.36 million). As a percentage of the registered voters it comes to 39%. IOW less than a majority. As a percentage of the entire population, not that its really relevant to those that cannot vote, but its 28%.

What has all this to do with the topic at hand? Pressure and manipulation through edited and targeted media (again including social). Abortion was sold as this last gasp, only in emergencies, procedure when in fact it has turned out to be quite the opposite with a reported 6,500+ babies killed in 2019. Even those that voted for it and were quite set in their convictions have said (to me in conversation) that they are now not so sure or have completely changed their minds.

The abortion thing has been done to death on boards.ie. The are permanent threads about it, I don't think Shooting is the place. I think your thoughts are clear based on the above and I don't there's anything to be achieved.

As an aside, Yes the "For" side ended up only being c.40% of the total registered voters. But sure, the against side ended up being c.20%. That analysis goes both ways.

Silly Gilly · 11-01-2021 5:39am

Cass wrote: »

Media is the main issue. What is that old saying, "Never argue with someone that buys ink by the barrel". A little outdated but the concept, and meaning, is still valid.

Individual bias can form in a number of ways including, but not limited to, upbringing, family, religious beliefs, learned behaviour/belief, friends, social circles, but the biggest factor in everyone's day is the media.

I've never seen a time when people have access to so much information but are so ignorant. That stems back to what you were saying about confirmation bias, but when you have (and its happening right now) the bulk of the media (including social media) trying and, successfully, silencing any opposing opinions, refusing to debate (instead opting for screaming) and essentially sticking their fingers in their ears to any opposing argument then you will surround yourself with similar views all the time and reinforce those beliefs, however right or wrong they are.

That is what media, and again i'm referring to all media including social, is doing right now.

But that is not happening.

Today Irish youtuber Dave Cullen had his channel, 500,000 subscribers and 100 million views, shut down. Gone. He is a right leaning conservative who dared to question the effectiveness and science behind the continued lockdowns. Youtube gave him the usual "goes against community standards" spiel and that was that.

Dolores Cahill. A lady with a degree in Molecular Genetics from Trinity College and a PhD in Immunology had videos taken down from Youtube and other social media becuase she dared to challenge the main stream narrative on the disease, the effectiveness of the attempts to combat it and for her opinions which differed again from the main narrative.

You don't have to like or agree with these opinions, but like the hate speech laws we were speaking about earlier in this thread this is not fair and impartial discussion or debate, its outright censorship of any opposing arguments by those that control the medium through which such opinions can be dispersed.

Now here is the kicker. You tell enough people, for long enough, that something is going to happen (in any facet of life) and those that believed it already will become entrenched, those in the middle will start to lean towards that view point, and those opposed will be labelled fascists, bigots, deniers, conspiracy nuts, etc, etc.

Those that would consider themselves neutral are not really, but even if they were they cannot be seen to be by either side, right or left. So they become the silent section of society. Afraid to rock the boat or voice their opinions for fear of being mocked, lectured or worse.

Look at the abortion referendum in 2018. I spoke to friends, family, and some people in general for a few weeks after that referendum and I cannot tell you how many people i spoke to that fell into three categories:
Didn't vote because they thought it was not their business (mostly men for some stupid fecking reason)

Didn't vote because they were afraid it would become known they chose to vote against it

Did vote for it but said afterwards they really wanted to vote against it but were "pressured" into it

If you break the voting numbers down it looks like this. 3.5 million registered voters. 61% turnout (roughly 2.5 million), and 64% voted to murder babies (1.36 million). As a percentage of the registered voters it comes to 39%. IOW less than a majority. As a percentage of the entire population, not that its really relevant to those that cannot vote, but its 28%.

What has all this to do with the topic at hand? Pressure and manipulation through edited and targeted media (again including social). Abortion was sold as this last gasp, only in emergencies, procedure when in fact it has turned out to be quite the opposite with a reported 6,500+ babies killed in 2019. Even those that voted for it and were quite set in their convictions have said (to me in conversation) that they are now not so sure or have completely changed their minds.

Yup, on both sides too, and is happening right now, again.

LOL, Dave Cullen, Dolores Cahill and murdering babies in one post! What is it about shooting wildlife that attracts absolute right-wing headbangers?

The world is changing and leaving dinosaurs like you, Cass, behind. Get used to it.

Cass · 11-01-2021 11:22am

Silly Gilly wrote: »

LOL, Dave Cullen, Dolores Cahill and murdering babies in one post! What is it about shooting wildlife that attracts absolute right-wing headbangers?

The world is changing and leaving dinosaurs like you, Cass, behind. Get used to it.

There you go Mellor, a prime example of what i was referring to above about the left and their inability to discuss or debate something instead relying on insult, abuse and screaming.

Cass · 11-01-2021 11:41am

Mellor wrote: »

I agree with include social media. A far bigger contributor to ignorance than mainstream media right now. And the biggest issue is not censorship. It's that all sorts of crap can be posted. Some real, some fake, some ignorant, and some intentionally misleading.

No doubt individuals are purposely doing this, but the majority then spread it without verifying. That is the ignorance i was speaking about.

Someone can make up a lie, make it into a flashy meme or graphic, and it goes viral very quickly if it fits a world-view that people want to believe.

This is what i was referring to when i said about personal ignorance.

The amount of nonsense I've heard people quoting as "fact" in the last year is shocking. Stuff that takes 2 seconds to fact check or disprove. But people don't want to check if it fits the agenda, and checking can only take away the juicy gossip.

Most people can find out if something is true with only a few clicks on the interweb. Most people, hopefully, know to take what they read on social media with a pinch of salt although the recent survey on where people get all their news and "facts" is worrying, but if you see it on the main stream media i'd bet that figure would jump significantly as the source is more trusted.

Just to be clear, I'm not ok with censorship. Opposing views are healthy. People are entitled to a view or opinion. I think deliberate misinformation is not the same as opinion. Opinion should not be stifled.

But it is happening. On social media, the MSM, etc. Opposing view points being ignored or removed and the discussion that should accompany a news cycle is becoming more biased. Then you have hate speech laws gaining traction which would eliminate some/a lot of the rebuttal. IOW we don't like it so we'll make it illegal to discuss.

Notwithstanding, I don't think it's ok for a head of state/government to intentionally lie to the public, in any circumstances. In that situation it's not simply about freedom of expression. There is duty to the office and to the people.

Without doubt. I've said before, and i assume you're talking about Trump, that i wouldn't defend him on a personal level and i don't think i ever have (although i am guilty of highlighting other wrong doing on "the left" to somehow justify the wrong doing being done "on the right" which is not helpful)

Why should they be afraid?

They didn't want to be known as opposed to so called progression, to go against the most vocal opinion, etc.

The abortion thing has been done to death on boards.ie. The are permanent threads about it, I don't think Shooting is the place. I think your thoughts are clear based on the above and I don't there's anything to be achieved.

Not on this forum and as this thread is the Off Topic thread its designed specifically for all non shooting chat hence the back and forth between you and i on censorship, hate speech, etc.

As an aside, Yes the "For" side ended up only being c.40% of the total registered voters. But sure, the against side ended up being c.20%. That analysis goes both ways.

It wasn't my point about percentages for and against, it was more aimed at the fact that not close to a majority voted on it for the above reasons. My thinking is what would the final result have been had all, or at least a much larger, percentage of voters, voted.

I don't know why i brought up the abortion issue for this example. Its a tentative link but i was watching a program on the subject earlier yesterday and its something i feel very strongly about (obviously against) so perhaps there was a better comparative topic and you're right, its done so perhaps best to leave it done as it'll only cause a conflict and disharmony as well as to distract from the topic we're currently discussing.

Mellor · 11-01-2021 1:06pm

Cass wrote: »

Not on this forum and as this thread is the Off Topic thread its designed specifically for all non shooting chat hence the back and forth between you and i on censorship, hate speech, etc.

I’m aware this is the off topic, are any subject is fair game. I just mean my the subject has been done to death on boards.ie and I’m personally not interested in discussing it. Not suggesting anybody else shouldn’t get discuss it here. Just meant it’s not for me.

tudderone · 11-01-2021 2:54pm

Silly Gilly wrote: »

LOL, Dave Cullen, Dolores Cahill and murdering babies in one post! What is it about shooting wildlife that attracts absolute right-wing headbangers?

The world is changing and leaving dinosaurs like you, Cass, behind. Get used to it.

Something, anything can change, does not mean its improving or getting better. I can throw a gallon of paint stripper over a brand new Merc, i've changed it, but not made it better.

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