Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

AutoTuning · 05-01-2021 2:37pm

That VAT change has even resulted in a lot of US websites refusing U.K. orders. You have to be very careful that they don’t think Ireland is in the U.K. or you can get refused services on the basis they’re afraid they’ll be caught up in that tax issue.

It’s extremely expensive and cumbersome for small retailers or even larger companies that have only occasional U.K. customers to have the systems in place to collect U.K. VAT. So they’re just losing access to international online retailers.

It’s not Brexit related, but it just coincides with it.

peter kern · 05-01-2021 2:45pm

Dymo wrote: »

I think it's better for Spain if they stay but here are a couple of reasons

Most people that retire to Spain are between 65-80, a lot of them need medical resources on a regular basis that puts the Spanish system under pressure, with the EHIC card that was fine as the UK government paid them back but now that has gone and private health insurance is either a foreign concept or they can't afford it as many just live off their pensions. This could become more of a burden for the Spanish economy.

If UK people sell up and leave the Spanish government they will be able to claim more taxes in property sales as they are now not governed by EU citizens legislation.

ok so they could increase council tax for uk house owner, to balance out the property sales tax loss .

as for medical costs you could easily change in in a way that works. and write it in the terms and conditons of the visa , so if they cant pay for their medical cost their visa is cancelled.

Zubeneschamali · 05-01-2021 3:12pm

dogbert27 wrote: »

It doesn't say anything to amending rules for people to reside or work there but be flexible for tourists.

The point is that the retired Brits have changed from being citizens of an EU country to being citizens of a 3rd country like Russia.

EU countries have always had the power to set their own rules for non EU visitors, like making them Lords in return for a big enough bung.

Dymo · 05-01-2021 3:17pm

Some issues popping up for Ex-pats in Europe now and will probably also have the same effect the opposite way for Irish Business's to the UK

Received today from Sabadell
Having just spoken with Sabadell they sent me this
Good morning,
“Unfortunatelly having UK out of the European Union means transfers between UK and the EU union (and EU to UK) are no longer domestic transfers and therefor go through a different route which involves additional costs, same happens to Switzerland and rest of non EU countries, it is one of the disadvantages that Brexit has for all of us.”

“The departure of the United Kingdom from the European Union, colloquially known as Brexit, implies that from January 1st 2021 and in an automatic way, the tariffs to be applied to customers for the reception/issuance of transfers , in EUR, SEK and RON, with that country, will be modified: For transfers affected by this change, the tariff for countries within the European Economic Area (EEA) will be changed to the tariff for countries outside the EEA.
Outside EEA : Receipt of transfers 0.35% Min 18.00”

Worth checking this from Malaga
“your rental tax will now be 24% with no allowable deductions. I am sure you can appreciate that hotels are the priority and that if you have purchased a property it should be for your sole use but you can rent the above charges apply”

Same rule as always for non Residents who are not from the EU, the UK has just decided to jump ship meaning they now find themselves in a different tax category, there are ways around it just like anything, a good financial advisor will be able to resolve the problem for you.

Renting a property in Spain may be more difficult with the 90 days rules

You need to read up on the Residency requirements as to what best suits your situation, standard residency for non EU citizens is more onerous than before, you may qualify for a Golden Visa if investing for example €500,00o in Spain. Initially if renting without residency you will be restricted to the 90days in 180 day rules. There is no straightforward answer as you have a lot of variables. Maybe first thing to do is read up on CAB Spain and it will have info re renting, residency, visas etc then once you have clearer plans more specific experiences could be asked here...good luck it will become clearer

AutoTuning · 05-01-2021 4:04pm

This article explains the background to the VAT issue fairly well. It’s causing mayhem and was rushed through unopposed before Xmas

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/04/uk-faces-trade-boycott-after-brexit-vat-change/

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is met with more than just people pulling away from trade. It looks like a deliberate attempt to impose a very burdensome protectionist barrier to exclude international online shopping, into what is one of the busiest domestic online markets in the world.

I think assuming it’s just blundering or stupid is a bit naive. Global Britain is rhetoric. They want one way open access to global markets while imposing protectionist policies on anyone trying to sell in their domestic market.

It’s the same with freedom of movement - outrage when Betty from Essex can’t get to Spain, but Yolanda from
Cadiz gets treated to a frosty dose of Hostile Environment ™ if she tries to do the same in Essex.

That’s certainly how it looks from the outside. It looks like old fashioned state backed mercantilism rather than modern trade policies.

yagan · 05-01-2021 4:43pm

AutoTuning wrote: »

That’s certainly how it looks from the outside. It looks like old fashioned state backed mercantilism rather than modern trade policies.

I understand better now why they'd think "Let's Go WTO" because when they say they want trade deals what they mean is they just want to trade simply, like selling arms to Saudi Arabia for cash.

To them trade is transactional, whereas businesses and industries think in supply chains and decades, timeframes far exceeding election cycles.

prawnsambo · 05-01-2021 4:47pm

AutoTuning wrote: »

This article explains the background to the VAT issue fairly well. It’s causing mayhem and was rushed through unopposed before Xmas

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/04/uk-faces-trade-boycott-after-brexit-vat-change/

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is met with more than just people pulling away from trade. It looks like a deliberate attempt to impose a very burdensome protectionist barrier to exclude international online shopping, into what is one of the busiest domestic online markets in the world.

I think assuming it’s just blundering or stupid is a bit naive. Global Britain is rhetoric. They want one way open access to global markets while imposing protectionist policies on anyone trying to sell in their domestic market.

It’s the same with freedom of movement - outrage when Betty from Essex can’t get to Spain, but Yolanda from
Cadiz gets treated to a frosty dose of Hostile Environment ™ if she tries to do the same in Essex.

That’s certainly how it looks from the outside. It looks like old fashioned state backed mercantilism rather than modern trade policies.

You're most probably right. I know small businesses are just not bothering to go through the hoops and knocking the UK off their selling destinations lists, but what's actually stopping them just completely ignoring the requirement and taking the Chinese approach of marking everything as "commercial sample" with no value on it?

CelticRambler · 05-01-2021 4:57pm

This change won't kill off those sales to the UK market completely, but for the customer it will reduce choice and cost more. The major online platforms (eBay, Amazon, etsy, AliExpress, etc.) will do the VAT collection and remittance on behalf of their traders, but they'll charge for the privilege. If someone is already using only eBay or etsy as their shopfront, there'll be no difference at either end; but if a company sells via their own website, or deals with direct queries through long-standing connections and word of mouth, they will no longer be able to offer that service without jumping through these new hoops.

listermint · 05-01-2021 5:55pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

You're most probably right. I know small businesses are just not bothering to go through the hoops and knocking the UK off their selling destinations lists, but what's actually stopping them just completely ignoring the requirement and taking the Chinese approach of marking everything as "commercial sample" with no value on it?

And in doing so knock of Ireland too. Because many of these have been lumping us in with the UK due to both lack of knowledge and convenience or both.

I've a couch bought from a Dutch company with services out of England and couch stored in Spain . Stuck there since early Dec. They can't ship as the UK has been excluded from sales now and they've lumped Ireland in with that too.

This may take months or years to build back to EU companies routes to this country as they are lazing out of it now.

I think our own government need to go on a failte Ireland style mission to small and med EU businesses so refirm options to them.

Ogham · 05-01-2021 6:04pm

AutoTuning wrote: »

That VAT change has even resulted in a lot of US websites refusing U.K. orders. You have to be very careful that they don’t think Ireland is in the U.K. or you can get refused services on the basis they’re afraid they’ll be caught up in that tax issue.

It’s extremely expensive and cumbersome for small retailers or even larger companies that have only occasional U.K. customers to have the systems in place to collect U.K. VAT. So they’re just losing access to international online retailers.

It’s not Brexit related, but it just coincides with it.

The EU are bringing in almost identical (it looks like) VAT changes in JUly.
They were going to do it on Jan 1st - but delayed it because of Covid.
So Irish customers will get similar problems from non EU websites in July.

It will just result in more small online sellers using Amazon who will take care of VAT for them.

L1011 · 05-01-2021 6:07pm

The difference is the UK is now stuck with that for everyone outside the UK - we'll only have issues with retailers outside the customs union, which gives us rather a lot more choices.

Quite a number of the large Chinese retailers already have some form of EU base in preparation for that.

AutoTuning · 05-01-2021 6:08pm

Most of it is covered by a handful of logistics operators, not the companies themselves. The Irish government should be communicating with them very clearly so there isn’t a lumping of Ireland into a non EU market.

The EU needs to do likewise, even if it means a significant communications campaign. They have a duty of care to the operation of the EU internal market. This stuff is a serious distortion of that market.

prawnsambo · 05-01-2021 6:10pm

Ogham wrote: »

The EU are bringing in almost identical (it looks like) VAT changes in JUly.
They were going to do it on Jan 1st - but delayed it because of Covid.
So Irish customers will get similar problems from non EU websites in July.

It will just result in more small online sellers using Amazon who will take care of VAT for them.

The EU version has a floor of something like €10k. Could even be more, but it won't affect consumers anyway. The UK has no minimum, so even a 1p widget would attract VAT.

Nope €10k Lol

listermint · 05-01-2021 6:51pm

AutoTuning wrote: »

Most of it is covered by a handful of logistics operators, not the companies themselves. The Irish government should be communicating with them very clearly so there isn’t a lumping of Ireland into a non EU market.

The EU needs to do likewise, even if it means a significant communications campaign. They have a duty of care to the operation of the EU internal market. This stuff is a serious distortion of that market.

Where do we start on something like this because for me the government or our MEPs should be making some noise on it. If they are doing it advertise it. If they aren't they should and I suppose people should be writing to them about experiences like mine.

An Ciarraioch · 05-01-2021 7:07pm

Our old friend Rockall has become topical again:

https://twitter.com/vincekearney/status/1346508472129564674

Patser · 05-01-2021 7:18pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Our old friend Rockall has become topical again:

https://twitter.com/vincekearney/status/1346508472129564674

Yep, more detail here

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0105/1187865-rockall-fishing/

They seemed to have tried to keep it from escalating by offering a temporary fishing licence, so they could still try and exert control without having a stand up row with the skipper.

I thought the Brexit deal allowed for fishing to remain fairly normal over the next 5 years.

Strazdas · 05-01-2021 7:21pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

The EU version has a floor of something like €10k. Could even be more, but it won't affect consumers anyway. The UK has no minimum, so even a 1p widget would attract VAT.

Nope €10k Lol

Interestingly, you can buy an item from GB to Ireland without any extra charges if it is valued at €22 or below.

Brexit UK has gone for broke and is charging VAT on everything, even something worth only a fiver.

listermint · 05-01-2021 7:21pm

Patser wrote: »

Yep, more detail here

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0105/1187865-rockall-fishing/

They seemed to have tried to keep it from escalating by offering a temporary fishing licence, so they could still try and exert control without having a stand up row with the skipper.

I thought the Brexit deal allowed for fishing to remain fairly normal over the next 5 years.

Would be quite the idea for Scotland to stand down from these sorts of actions. It's disputed land and should they want EU membership and support at some point nonsense like this disputed rock will come up for resolution.

A Dub in Glasgo · 05-01-2021 7:28pm

A bit of background to the fishing dispute

https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/rockall-limits-row/

Interestingly, it contains the following which surprised me

Legal experts: ‘Scotland right, Ireland wrong’

Two Irish international maritime law experts have said that Scotland is within its legal rights to place a 12-mile territorial limit around Rockall, reports Lorna Siggins.

Professor Clive Symmons, a maritime law expert at Trinity College Dublin, said that statements made by Irish government ministers over the past week have been ‘incorrect’, as Rockall is entitled to a 12-mile territorial sea.

Ireland also agreed to Rockall being included in Britain’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ) in March 2013.

Scotland is ‘within its rights’ to threaten enforcement, and Ireland ‘hasn’t a leg to stand on’ within Rockall’s 12-mile limit, Professor Symmons says.

Professor Ronán Long, who is the ocean governance and law of the sea chair at the World Maritime University, agrees with Professor Symmons. He says that rocks can generate 12-mile territorial sea limits under UN Law of the Sea convention rules.

The Scottish govt is between a rock(all) and a hard place with this as the UK determines UK boundaries but fishing is devolved therefore the Scottish govt implement UK policy. The fishing community is a key battleground between the SNP and the Tories and it looks like the SNP are flexing some muscles to win over that vote for the election in May

Imreoir2 · 05-01-2021 7:33pm

listermint wrote: »

Would be quite the idea for Scotland to stand down from these sorts of actions. It's disputed land and should they want EU membership and support at some point nonsense like this disputed rock will come up for resolution.

That might be the idea, store up a bargening chip for later.

yagan · 05-01-2021 7:38pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

A bit of background to the fishing dispute

https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/rockall-limits-row/

Interestingly, it contains the following which surprised me

The Scottish govt is between a rock(all) and a hard place with this as the UK determines UK boundaries but fishing is devolved therefore the Scottish govt implement UK policy. The fishing community is a key battleground between the SNP and the Tories and it looks like the SNP are flexing some muscles to win over that vote for the election in May

Well we'll always fight our corner but it would be gracious conceding to legal rights if it elevated Scottish independence.

CelticRambler · 05-01-2021 8:12pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Interestingly, you can buy an item from GB to Ireland without any extra charges if it is valued at €22 or below.

Only until June. Then it's EU VAT applied at the point of sale from 1ct upwards.

Strazdas · 05-01-2021 8:16pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Only until June. Then it's EU VAT applied at the point of sale from 1ct upwards.

Really? I wasn't aware of that. I see An Post has some sort of arrangement with UK sellers on eBay that they automatically add in the VAT charge to the sales price listed.

CelticRambler · 05-01-2021 8:28pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Really? I wasn't aware of that. I see An Post has some sort of arrangement with UK sellers on eBay that they automatically add in the VAT charge to the sales price listed.

This new GB system is the EU system (that they helped design) which should have come into effect right as GB left the Single Market. Only while the UK government rushed the legislation to enact their version of the same system, the EU decided that a small amount of VAT wasn't worth worrying over when there was a global pandemic to deal with, so they pushed back the date of operation to give short-staffed businesses extra time to sort their registrations out.

The slight difference for non-EU businesses is that on our side of the Channel/Irish Sea, one registration gives them access to 450m customers spread across 27 countries; on the GB side, they're limited to 60m with one corner of the Kingdom in a bit of a no-man's land.

ancapailldorcha · 05-01-2021 8:49pm

Mod: Please do not dump tweets here. A post has been removed.

Capt'n Midnight · 06-01-2021 2:51am

CelticRambler wrote: »

This new GB system is the EU system (that they helped design)

Brexit is the gift that just keeps giving.

Dig deep enough on any of the big ticket items of Brexit and you'll see UK fingerprints everywhere.

Who wrote Article 50 ? , Who planned the Common Market ? , Who set the timetable and who refused extensions ? Who insisted that Galileo couldn't be used by third parties ?

Anyway EU share trading flees London on first day after full Brexit

“It’s been an extraordinary day. Shifting liquidity is one of the hardest things to do. It’s not ‘Big Bang’ — it’s ‘Bang and It’s Gone’. The City has lost its European share business,” said Alasdair Haynes, chief executive of Aquis Exchange.

€6 Bn headed east.
So far it's gone like clock work since the trading links were all setup beforehand..

peter kern · 06-01-2021 9:42am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Brexit is the gift that just keeps giving.

Dig deep enough on any of the big ticket items of Brexit and you'll see UK fingerprints everywhere.

Who wrote Article 50 ? , Who planned the Common Market ? , Who set the timetable and who refused extensions ? Who insisted that Galileo couldn't be used by third parties ?

Anyway EU share trading flees London on first day after full Brexit

€6 Bn headed east.
So far it's gone like clock work since the trading links were all setup beforehand..

here is i guess the full article

https://thewashingtoncitytimes.com/2021/01/04/eu-stock-trading-flees-london-on-day-one-after-full-brexit/

what is interesting is that this news is not widely reported either in uk or germany. but then reporting is also poor , it would be interesting to now how much in tax income this is likely to bring to eu countries mainly france germany netherlands.

CelticRambler · 06-01-2021 9:52am

Looks like the currency traders have been reading boards.ie during their Christmas holidays! :pac: From an article on Bloomberg this morning:

“We are now stuck in the reality that Brexit is in fact bad for the U.K., and the thin type of deal that we have particularly so,” said Kacper Brzezniak, who manages $8.6 billion at Allianz Global. “There is a very high probability that Scotland will leave the U.K. and that Northern Ireland will rejoin Ireland.”

Brzezniak expects the euro to gain about 5% against the pound in the medium term to 0.95 pence, while BlueBay’s Dowding sees the common currency hitting 0.93 pence over the next month, its highest since March. It was trading at around 0.902 pence in London on Tuesday.

Igotadose · 06-01-2021 9:53am

peter kern wrote: »

here is i guess the full article

https://thewashingtoncitytimes.com/2021/01/04/eu-stock-trading-flees-london-on-day-one-after-full-brexit/

what is interesting is that this news is not widely reported either in uk or germany. but then reporting is also poor , it would be interesting to now how much in tax income this is likely to bring to eu countries mainly france germany netherlands.

Unfortunately both links are paywalled. From the quote, yes 6bn sterling is a lot of money but doesn't sound like a huge percentage, it'd barely be noticed in the US.

Dymo · 06-01-2021 10:09am

peter kern wrote: »

here is i guess the full article

https://thewashingtoncitytimes.com/2021/01/04/eu-stock-trading-flees-london-on-day-one-after-full-brexit/

what is interesting is that this news is not widely reported either in uk or germany. but then reporting is also poor , it would be interesting to now how much in tax income this is likely to bring to eu countries mainly france germany netherlands.

It's because it's not effecting people on the ground, the money and shares might have moved but it's the same people trading from the same offices in the UK.

Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

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