Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

Hellotonever wrote: »

BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! How can a children's hospital for the welfare of our kids possibly be a scam? We need the best and most expensive care in the world!
Yes more expensive than every palace! And more expensive than the pentagon!

Dont worry the taxpayer will foot it!

But lets be real here. Its a scam. There is no way to justify paying so much for a three storey hospital. Its not even that specialized. There are more specialized hospitals that have been renovated multiple times and the cost never went past 1.5 billion!

Its corruption at its finest. BAM and certain party members are 100% laughing all the way to the bank. They're doing this in front of you, the taxpayer and your instinctual reaction is probably to defend this right?

After all how can it be a scam if its legal?

Right?

Pal pick up the phone. 2008 is calling.

Which party members were involved - the party in power at the time the decision to go ahead was made? Or the party in power at the time the site was chosen? Or the party in power at the time the contract was awarded? Or the party in power at the time the decision was made to take BAM to the High Court?

How do you reckon that the corrupt party members managed to get dozens of officials to go along with the scam? How did they make sure that no other builder submitted a slightly lower tender?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

Isn't it the location the hospital consultants wanted? The project wouldn't have started if they had not been kept on board.

By the way, ambulances go through busy junctions all the time. I'm sure the paramedics can keep the child's condition stable until they get to the hospital.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

20 years and numerous reports recommended where it is now.

Who do you want to blame?

smellyoldboot wrote: »

The Dublin Children's Hospital. Give it 10 years we'll be building another so that anyone non Dublin based can actually reach the bloody thing in less than 4 hours.

That be nice - the non Dublin one will be open before the Dublin one!

I completely forgot this was a thing btw - never mind a thing that hasn't even been built.

Snotty wrote: »

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

And to make matters worse when the Childrens Hospital is complete the Coastguard wont be able to land their helicopters there, you couldnt make it up.

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.

Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?

Connolly Hospital in Blanch was the other option where they have acres of green space for future expansions and where Coastguard helicopters could have landed which they cant do at the new Childrens Hospital in St James, there isnt the space and the helicopter pad to be installed there cannot hold the weight of them. Meaning children with severe and urgent brain injuries may not get to the hospital on time because the helicopter cannot land there. You would have thought this would be a key requirement on where to locate the hospital but no it wasnt.

That aside from a population perspective around 1.1m people live inside the M50 and 3.8m live outside it. It can take as long to travel from Lucan to the city centre as it does to travel from Lucan to Athlone. Ambulances coming from other areas of the country outside the M50 are going to have a battle to get through traffic at a time when every minute counts.

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Apart from the location, and the limitations caused by the site, the biggest problem is that it won't increase bed capacity in the slightest.
380 beds in individual rooms and 93 day beds.
So about 485 bed spaces, about the same number as will be closed in Crumlin, Temple Street and the Childrens Unit in Tallagh.

Ia there a shortage of beds at the moment?

Of course it's a coc#up by all involved.
There's too much money in the making for it to be a genuine good for the kids/country project.

There appears to be only one construction company in this country. The politicians are a bunch of idiots and as for the consultants. Words fail me.

This is a tribunal waiting to happen.
Yet one more waste if money and keep some should be retired judge in business.

Muahahaha wrote: »

.

That aside from a population perspective around 1.1m people live inside the M50 and 3.8m live outside it. It can take as long to travel from Lucan to the city centre as it does to travel from Lucan to Athlone. Ambulances coming from other areas of the country outside the M50 are going to have a battle to get through traffic at a time when every minute counts.

St James' isn't in the city centre.

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded. That's common enough. Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on.

Does that make you part of it?

tdf7187 wrote: »

. The National Lottery raised about €500m selling price. We are now told that the children's hospital will cost six times that.

Who told us that figure you're quoting for the total cost please?

I wouldn't agree it's a scam but certainly questions need to be asked of vested interests, various hospital management boards and not least how Government goes about the procurement process. Time and time again, Politicians show their ineptitude when comes to negotiating and implementing major construction projects. I can not understand how lessons never learned.

The NTMA has by all accounts managed the states long term finances successfully, WTF can't a competent procurement agency not be in place to deal with major infrastructure projects. If this were a private development does anyone seriously think the contractor would be pulling stunts like those reported widely.

It's a national and financial disgrace and as extreme as it may be at this late stage, it should be stopped immediately and someone competent put in place to sort this debacle out. We've essentially reached an extraordinary situation were costs will continue to spiral with no repercussions, in essence the state is allowing the contractors to charge whatever it likes, knowing full well there's not a single government politician willing to say STOP.

There are obvious issues with the way the project was procured, tendering the ground works and basement first was always going to lead to whoever won that winning the larger contract for the hospital itself. Things weren't helped by it being won by the most confrontational and greedy contractor out there. All contractors will try to ride the client but only BAM put sand in the vaseline. That doesn't mean that the hospital is not in the right location.

The NCH had to be co-located with a suitably specialised adult hospital so all these on the M50 ideas are not realistic. There is a huge economy of scale aspect to complex, highly specialised healthcare. The necessary equipment and facilities are extremely expensive and have to be well utilised and the staff are very specialised so can't be doing other jobs some of the time. Its too expensive to replicate facilities and having to transfer patients between locations is not efficient. James’s has the widest range of subspecialities and the highest level of clinical complexity of all the adult hospitals in the country and provides a number of national services. You can't replicate most of this elsewhere so having the NCH elsewhere would mean a inferior hospital.

The NCH building will house new campus-wide facilities for James's which are currently substandard and would require upgrading/replacement were they not being provided by the NCH. The theatres etc. in the Childrens Hospital are intended to be used by the new maternity hospital (Coombe replacement) which is to be built next to it so that such facilities dont have to be replicated there. Also worth mentioning that there is the new South Dublin Ambulance Station just down the road already in place. The costs of the NCH go beyond the hospital itself.

The thing about traffic here is not as important as some make out. The M50 is already overloaded and adding another major hospital is not going to do it any favours. Not every sick child in the country gets brought straight to the NCH, it is for extremely sick children requiring highly specialist care which is generally planned. The vast majority of children will still be treated elsewhere. The satellite centres are in place which mean outpatient appointments dont have to be in the NCH itself. James's has Luas beside it, Dublin Bus running there it, Heuston station not far away and has a huge population within walking/cycling distance which will at least mean the huge staff that is required to run it don't all have to pile onto the M50 to get there.

Sorry OP but you’re talking about something of which you don’t understand. The reason for the cost overrun is the adversarial tendering process which our government has put in place. The process basically drives for the lowest tender, so contractors have to work to that. However, there are unseens and unknowns and having seen some of the government tender requests myself they are a joke. Hence these have to be claimed for as the job progresses. This is where the contractor actually balances their books, as often the initial contract price is so low, it is not commercially viable, however, if the contractor priced it to take into account all it could envisage being needed, they wouldn’t get a look in at the tender award stage. Then there are punitive clawback claims for the government to force the contractor to deliver on time, not to mention changes to the spec that can come up ad hoc to add to costs. So, blame the process if you must and remember who put that in place.
BTW no other contractor would touch that site if Bam was removed anyways so that’s not a solution either.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are obvious issues with the way the project was procured, tendering the ground works and basement first was always going to lead to whoever won that winning the larger contract for the hospital itself. Things weren't helped by it being won by the most confrontational and greedy contractor out there. All contractors will try to ride the client but only BAM put sand in the vaseline. That doesn't mean that the hospital is not in the right location.

The NCH had to be co-located with a suitably specialised adult hospital so all these on the M50 ideas are not realistic. There is a huge economy of scale aspect to complex, highly specialised healthcare. The necessary equipment and facilities are extremely expensive and have to be well utilised and the staff are very specialised so can't be doing other jobs some of the time. Its too expensive to replicate facilities and having to transfer patients between locations is not efficient. James’s has the widest range of subspecialities and the highest level of clinical complexity of all the adult hospitals in the country and provides a number of national services. You can't replicate most of this elsewhere so having the NCH elsewhere would mean a inferior hospital.

The NCH building will house new campus-wide facilities for James's which are currently substandard and would require upgrading/replacement were they not being provided by the NCH. The theatres etc. in the Childrens Hospital are intended to be used by the new maternity hospital (Coombe replacement) which is to be built next to it so that such facilities dont have to be replicated there. Also worth mentioning that there is the new South Dublin Ambulance Station just down the road already in place. The costs of the NCH go beyond the hospital itself.

The thing about traffic here is not as important as some make out. The M50 is already overloaded and adding another major hospital is not going to do it any favours. Not every sick child in the country gets brought straight to the NCH, it is for extremely sick children requiring highly specialist care which is generally planned. The vast majority of children will still be treated elsewhere. The satellite centres are in place which mean outpatient appointments dont have to be in the NCH itself. James's has Luas beside it, Dublin Bus running there it, Heuston station not far away and has a huge population within walking/cycling distance which will at least mean the huge staff that is required to run it don't all have to pile onto the M50 to get there.

I agree about the medical end but I said at the time that for a long term project moving out to say the irfu land at new lands would have allowed James’s to follow out and the Coombe which was part of the tri-location plan. Parts of James’s are quite old and buildings like these have life spans. A long term plan to move all 3 whilst costly would have freed up both the Coombe and James’s site for housing and money to help offset the cost.
I understand it would have cost more in the long run but I think the payoff would have been worth it.
Rialto is no place for a hospital, a site with room for expansion and grounds for walking or just getting some air in should have been part of the equation.