Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

Guy:Incognito

Eric Cartman wrote: »

by the red cow park and ride or similar would have been nice.

look at the beacon, the hermitage, blanchardstown, Tallaght hospitals, all just off the motorway, easily got to with public transport and loads of parking. building a hospital more than 1km from the M50 should never have been considered for this.

Tallaght is a 4km drive from the ballymount junction and 5 from Spawell going by Google maps

Guy:Incognito

Muahahaha wrote: »

.

That aside from a population perspective around 1.1m people live inside the M50 and 3.8m live outside it. It can take as long to travel from Lucan to the city centre as it does to travel from Lucan to Athlone. Ambulances coming from other areas of the country outside the M50 are going to have a battle to get through traffic at a time when every minute counts.

St James' isn't in the city centre.

crazy 88

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

St James' isn't in the city centre.

city/city centre...does it matter? The area is inaccessible.

Victor

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded. That's common enough. Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on.

Does that make you part of it?

y0ssar1an22

AutoTuning wrote: »

It's an extremely expensive illustration of "Too many cooks."

You can't manage a project like that. It was pulled around by endless political and apolitical lobbies and even moved site.

From what I can see they forgot the core reason for the project: to treat sick children. Instead there were debates about everything else.

Whole thing could have been built simply and quickly on a green field site, perhaps next to one of the suburban hospitals with space, or near by.

Everything about it was a fiasco and white elephant from the start and it's starved other urgent projects from capital funds.

there will prob be an inquiry in a few years,maybe a tribuneral that'll cost millions.

one of the biggest things, that no big party will address, is the gravy train they are on.

they're all as bad. until career politicians are done away with nothing will change.

AndrewJRenko

tdf7187 wrote: »

. The National Lottery raised about €500m selling price. We are now told that the children's hospital will cost six times that.

Who told us that figure you're quoting for the total cost please?

AndrewJRenko

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

It isin't just ambulances though. It is children that need to be driven to appointments. Getting across can be a nightmare

You do know that not everyone drives or has access to a car, right? We need a hospital with great public transport connectivity, as is standard in UK and around the world. The Luas literally runs beside this building.

Dempo1

I wouldn't agree it's a scam but certainly questions need to be asked of vested interests, various hospital management boards and not least how Government goes about the procurement process. Time and time again, Politicians show their ineptitude when comes to negotiating and implementing major construction projects. I can not understand how lessons never learned.

The NTMA has by all accounts managed the states long term finances successfully, WTF can't a competent procurement agency not be in place to deal with major infrastructure projects. If this were a private development does anyone seriously think the contractor would be pulling stunts like those reported widely.

It's a national and financial disgrace and as extreme as it may be at this late stage, it should be stopped immediately and someone competent put in place to sort this debacle out. We've essentially reached an extraordinary situation were costs will continue to spiral with no repercussions, in essence the state is allowing the contractors to charge whatever it likes, knowing full well there's not a single government politician willing to say STOP.

Wanderer78

Hellotonever wrote:

Pal pick up the phone. 2008 is calling.

08 was caused by private debt, nothing to do with public debt, but the hospital shows the skullduggery between governments and major contractors, there's no fcuking way no one knew the orginal quote was gonna work

Pete_Cavan

There are obvious issues with the way the project was procured, tendering the ground works and basement first was always going to lead to whoever won that winning the larger contract for the hospital itself. Things weren't helped by it being won by the most confrontational and greedy contractor out there. All contractors will try to ride the client but only BAM put sand in the vaseline. That doesn't mean that the hospital is not in the right location.

The NCH had to be co-located with a suitably specialised adult hospital so all these on the M50 ideas are not realistic. There is a huge economy of scale aspect to complex, highly specialised healthcare. The necessary equipment and facilities are extremely expensive and have to be well utilised and the staff are very specialised so can't be doing other jobs some of the time. Its too expensive to replicate facilities and having to transfer patients between locations is not efficient. James’s has the widest range of subspecialities and the highest level of clinical complexity of all the adult hospitals in the country and provides a number of national services. You can't replicate most of this elsewhere so having the NCH elsewhere would mean a inferior hospital.

The NCH building will house new campus-wide facilities for James's which are currently substandard and would require upgrading/replacement were they not being provided by the NCH. The theatres etc. in the Childrens Hospital are intended to be used by the new maternity hospital (Coombe replacement) which is to be built next to it so that such facilities dont have to be replicated there. Also worth mentioning that there is the new South Dublin Ambulance Station just down the road already in place. The costs of the NCH go beyond the hospital itself.

The thing about traffic here is not as important as some make out. The M50 is already overloaded and adding another major hospital is not going to do it any favours. Not every sick child in the country gets brought straight to the NCH, it is for extremely sick children requiring highly specialist care which is generally planned. The vast majority of children will still be treated elsewhere. The satellite centres are in place which mean outpatient appointments dont have to be in the NCH itself. James's has Luas beside it, Dublin Bus running there it, Heuston station not far away and has a huge population within walking/cycling distance which will at least mean the huge staff that is required to run it don't all have to pile onto the M50 to get there.

sydthebeat

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Think of it more as a monument to incompetence

100%

The people who put together the design and tender process didn't have anything near enough experience for a once in 100 year project such as this.

screamer

Sorry OP but you’re talking about something of which you don’t understand. The reason for the cost overrun is the adversarial tendering process which our government has put in place. The process basically drives for the lowest tender, so contractors have to work to that. However, there are unseens and unknowns and having seen some of the government tender requests myself they are a joke. Hence these have to be claimed for as the job progresses. This is where the contractor actually balances their books, as often the initial contract price is so low, it is not commercially viable, however, if the contractor priced it to take into account all it could envisage being needed, they wouldn’t get a look in at the tender award stage. Then there are punitive clawback claims for the government to force the contractor to deliver on time, not to mention changes to the spec that can come up ad hoc to add to costs. So, blame the process if you must and remember who put that in place.
BTW no other contractor would touch that site if Bam was removed anyways so that’s not a solution either.

facehugger99

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.

And from someone with actual experience of tender processes, I can tell you that's complete bollox.

salmocab

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are obvious issues with the way the project was procured, tendering the ground works and basement first was always going to lead to whoever won that winning the larger contract for the hospital itself. Things weren't helped by it being won by the most confrontational and greedy contractor out there. All contractors will try to ride the client but only BAM put sand in the vaseline. That doesn't mean that the hospital is not in the right location.

The NCH had to be co-located with a suitably specialised adult hospital so all these on the M50 ideas are not realistic. There is a huge economy of scale aspect to complex, highly specialised healthcare. The necessary equipment and facilities are extremely expensive and have to be well utilised and the staff are very specialised so can't be doing other jobs some of the time. Its too expensive to replicate facilities and having to transfer patients between locations is not efficient. James’s has the widest range of subspecialities and the highest level of clinical complexity of all the adult hospitals in the country and provides a number of national services. You can't replicate most of this elsewhere so having the NCH elsewhere would mean a inferior hospital.

The NCH building will house new campus-wide facilities for James's which are currently substandard and would require upgrading/replacement were they not being provided by the NCH. The theatres etc. in the Childrens Hospital are intended to be used by the new maternity hospital (Coombe replacement) which is to be built next to it so that such facilities dont have to be replicated there. Also worth mentioning that there is the new South Dublin Ambulance Station just down the road already in place. The costs of the NCH go beyond the hospital itself.

The thing about traffic here is not as important as some make out. The M50 is already overloaded and adding another major hospital is not going to do it any favours. Not every sick child in the country gets brought straight to the NCH, it is for extremely sick children requiring highly specialist care which is generally planned. The vast majority of children will still be treated elsewhere. The satellite centres are in place which mean outpatient appointments dont have to be in the NCH itself. James's has Luas beside it, Dublin Bus running there it, Heuston station not far away and has a huge population within walking/cycling distance which will at least mean the huge staff that is required to run it don't all have to pile onto the M50 to get there.

I agree about the medical end but I said at the time that for a long term project moving out to say the irfu land at new lands would have allowed James’s to follow out and the Coombe which was part of the tri-location plan. Parts of James’s are quite old and buildings like these have life spans. A long term plan to move all 3 whilst costly would have freed up both the Coombe and James’s site for housing and money to help offset the cost.
I understand it would have cost more in the long run but I think the payoff would have been worth it.
Rialto is no place for a hospital, a site with room for expansion and grounds for walking or just getting some air in should have been part of the equation.

Ash.J.Williams

Snotty wrote: »

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

and that is nowhere near the city

Yuser.

sydthebeat wrote: »

100%

The people who put together the design and tender process didn't have anything near enough experience for a once in 100 year project such as this.

It's not that big of deal

It's just a children's hospital

Pete_Cavan

salmocab wrote: »

I agree about the medical end but I said at the time that for a long term project moving out to say the irfu land at new lands would have allowed James’s to follow out and the Coombe which was part of the tri-location plan. Parts of James’s are quite old and buildings like these have life spans. A long term plan to move all 3 whilst costly would have freed up both the Coombe and James’s site for housing and money to help offset the cost.
I understand it would have cost more in the long run but I think the payoff would have been worth it.
Rialto is no place for a hospital, a site with room for expansion and grounds for walking or just getting some air in should have been part of the equation.

Moving James's would take decades and cost way more. It's not just building cost, medical equipment is extremely expensive, nevermind the high end specialist equipment and systems used in James's which you'd have to buy all new for the new location and both continuing to operate both for a period for a managed switch over, creating duplication and huge extra costs. Just imagine the cost of building the NCH plus a new most specialised hospital in the country and a new maternity hospital all at the same time! The risks associated with it would be unacceptable, any delay would have enormous cost and health care implications.

Talking about selling the James's site isnt that simple. There are a number of heritage buildings there and newer buildings, particularly the recently completed MISA building, would have to remain in use, otherwise you piss away tens of millions of euro already invested. You'd have to incur the significant cost of demolishing and clearing what you are selling, or else it would be accounted for in any bids. It would be better to sell the green site on the M50 which would be much more attractive to developers!

On a 650million project, to come in 100million less than the nearest competitors with their track record should have caused arched eyebrows in the appraisal team.

The whole farce is a monument to poor project management from day1

ILoveYourVibes

Imagine if it falls down.

I mean it feels like fate.

ExMachina1000

Larbre34 wrote: »

Annnnnnnd bullshyt. Take it from someone with actual experience with tenders.

Definitely not bullshyt. Perhaps we are talking about projects or contracts of a different scale.
From someone with experience in the tendering process

The whole "I didn't experience it so it does exist" angle

Eric Cartman

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Tallaght is a 4km drive from the ballymount junction and 5 from Spawell going by Google maps

True, and its the furthest one but if you take the N81 exit and go up cookstown way, its dual carraigeway 99% of the way there, youd get from any exit of the m50 to tallaght hospital faster than you would from any exit to the new NCH site,

screamer

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

On a 650million project, to come in 100million less than the nearest competitors with their track record should have caused arched eyebrows in the appraisal team.

The whole farce is a monument to poor project management from day1

No, it’s a master class on how to beat the government with their own crappy tendering process that’s what it is.

Ger Roe

political analyst wrote: »

Isn't it the location the hospital consultants wanted? The project wouldn't have started if they had not been kept on board.

By the way, ambulances go through busy junctions all the time. I'm sure the paramedics can keep the child's condition stable until they get to the hospital.

The vast majority of hospital admissions are not emergency based. The obvious inconvenience and frustrations associated with this hospital will affect far more patients and visitors than the blue light cases.

Of course an emergency ambulance will get to a hospital quickly - wherever its located, with this hospital everyone else will be paying the ongoing price whenever/if it is ever finished.

Then you have to question the design - not a flat window in the building - all curved and additionally expensive, with curved rooms and corridors etc, future maintenance will always be a matter of ordering repeat bespoke designs.

The whole thing was a political and medical vanity project from the start. We didn't have to invent a whole new concept, we are not capable of being that groundbreaking .... as the whole fiasco has shown, and it's not over yet.

The children deserve far better, far quicker and the tax payer deserves some value for money and a building/service that they can be proud of.

Pete_Cavan

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Definitely not bullshyt. Perhaps we are dealing with projects of a different scale.
From someone with experience in the tendering process

The whole "I didn't experience it so it does exist" angle

There is zero chance details of the other tenders as they come in. Massive tenders like this get submitted very close to the submission deadline. The work that goes into them is enormous and they are working on them as long as they can. The pricing in particular is under consideration right up to the end as they are weighing up being low enough to win the tender against the commercial risks involved. Even if someone got details of another tender several hours before the deadline, it wouldn't be enough time to adjust your own tender and get it in in time.

All tenders are opened at the same time, not individual tenders opened as they are received. Multiple people will be in the room for opening tenders and the process is recorded and signed off. Electronic tendering means that digital records are available for when all tenders are opened.

If you think tenders are opened by some lad alone well in advance of the deadline and info sent to other tenders, you clearly have no experience of tendering whatsoever.

salmocab

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Moving James's would take decades and cost way more. It's not just building cost, medical equipment is extremely expensive, nevermind the high end specialist equipment and systems used in James's which you'd have to buy all new for the new location and both continuing to operate both for a period for a managed switch over, creating duplication and huge extra costs. Just imagine the cost of building the NCH plus a new most specialised hospital in the country and a new maternity hospital all at the same time! The risks associated with it would be unacceptable, any delay would have enormous cost and health care implications.

Talking about selling the James's site isnt that simple. There are a number of heritage buildings there and newer buildings, particularly the recently completed MISA building, would have to remain in use, otherwise you piss away tens of millions of euro already invested. You'd have to incur the significant cost of demolishing and clearing what you are selling, or else it would be accounted for in any bids. It would be better to sell the green site on the M50 which would be much more attractive to developers!

I wasn’t suggesting they build them at the same time, more that they build the NCH then the maternity hospital that’s planned anyway. Both at a cheaper price than jamming them onto James’s hospital. These along with proper infrastructure and planning for access, parking and an energy Center etc would allow for a modern hospital to be built in the future. We’re talking about something that will be around for a century, I’d rather wait 30 years for the tri location than try to force it all into a site too small and inaccessible. I’ve brought my son to crumlin and an extra worry doing that is always parking. I can drive to crumlin in 20 minutes but PT would take me at about 90. Rialto will be worse for parking.

gctest50

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Talking about selling the James's site isnt that simple. There are a number of heritage buildings there

All the more reason not to build there

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

........

otherwise you piss away tens of millions of euro already invested.

James' site would sell for quite a few million

Anyway the NCH sh**show will end up at more than €1.43 billion

The rest of that post is just FUD

vicwatson

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

Gov offered a free site too. Turned it down

Smee_Again

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.

This is not my experience of working on national HSE tenders, and we’ve been winning them.

Besides what good is information about other tenders received? It’s too late at that point to have any impact. Any skullduggery will be long before that when the specs are being written.

I can usually tell to within a few points what our score will be on the quality aspect of the tender before submission. Post submission I can reverse engineer our financial score versus the competition, so if anything is suspicious it’ll show up.

ted1

vicwatson wrote: »

Gov offered a free site too. Turned it down

It’s about co location. And having the specialists available, at the “free” site they didn’t have access to the specialist

Geuze

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

One reason for the location is that the consultants live in South Dublin, and will not travel to northwest Dublin.

Never underestimate the effects of powerful vested interests.