Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

Hellotonever

BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! How can a children's hospital for the welfare of our kids possibly be a scam? We need the best and most expensive care in the world!
Yes more expensive than every palace! And more expensive than the pentagon!

Dont worry the taxpayer will foot it!

But lets be real here. Its a scam. There is no way to justify paying so much for a three storey hospital. Its not even that specialized. There are more specialized hospitals that have been renovated multiple times and the cost never went past 1.5 billion!

Its corruption at its finest. BAM and certain party members are 100% laughing all the way to the bank. They're doing this in front of you, the taxpayer and your instinctual reaction is probably to defend this right?

After all how can it be a scam if its legal?

Right?

Pal pick up the phone. 2008 is calling.

JeffKenna

I forgot about this.

ExMachina1000

Think of it more as a monument to incompetence

rob316

You can add the cork events centre to this too. Keeps going over budget before a brick is laid.

AndrewJRenko

Hellotonever wrote: »

BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! How can a children's hospital for the welfare of our kids possibly be a scam? We need the best and most expensive care in the world!
Yes more expensive than every palace! And more expensive than the pentagon!

Dont worry the taxpayer will foot it!

But lets be real here. Its a scam. There is no way to justify paying so much for a three storey hospital. Its not even that specialized. There are more specialized hospitals that have been renovated multiple times and the cost never went past 1.5 billion!

Its corruption at its finest. BAM and certain party members are 100% laughing all the way to the bank. They're doing this in front of you, the taxpayer and your instinctual reaction is probably to defend this right?

After all how can it be a scam if its legal?

Right?

Pal pick up the phone. 2008 is calling.

Which party members were involved - the party in power at the time the decision to go ahead was made? Or the party in power at the time the site was chosen? Or the party in power at the time the contract was awarded? Or the party in power at the time the decision was made to take BAM to the High Court?

How do you reckon that the corrupt party members managed to get dozens of officials to go along with the scam? How did they make sure that no other builder submitted a slightly lower tender?

Eric Cartman

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

ExMachina1000

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Which party members were involved - the party in power at the time the decision to go ahead was made? Or the party in power at the time the site was chosen? Or the party in power at the time the contract was awarded? Or the party in power at the time the decision was made to take BAM to the High Court?

How do you reckon that the corrupt party members managed to get dozens of officials to go along with the scam? How did they make sure that no other builder submitted a slightly lower tender?

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.

AndrewJRenko

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.

How much experience do you have with public sector tendering?

It's fairly trivial to prevent this by not submitting your tender until the last minute.

Afaik, the eTenders system works on a lockbox basis, so no details of any submitted tenders can be viewed until the expiry date has passed.

This isn't their first rodeo.

political analyst

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

Isn't it the location the hospital consultants wanted? The project wouldn't have started if they had not been kept on board.

By the way, ambulances go through busy junctions all the time. I'm sure the paramedics can keep the child's condition stable until they get to the hospital.

tdf7187

It is, clearly and obviously, a massive, monstrous can of worms. Think about it - the National Lottery, which had never had a single issue in public ownership, was privatised with undue haste in 2014. We were told the public finances needed the money and that the funds raised would go to the children's hospital. The National Lottery raised about €500m selling price. We are now told that the children's hospital will cost six times that.

Jinglejangle69

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

20 years and numerous reports recommended where it is now.

Who do you want to blame?

Fuascailteoir

political analyst wrote: »

Isn't it the location the hospital consultants wanted? The project wouldn't have started if they had not been kept on board.

By the way, ambulances go through busy junctions all the time. I'm sure the paramedics can keep the child's condition stable until they get to the hospital.

It isin't just ambulances though. It is children that need to be driven to appointments. Getting across can be a nightmare

ExMachina1000

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How much experience do you have with public sector tendering?

It's fairly trivial to prevent this by not submitting your tender until the last minute.

Afaik, the eTenders system works on a lockbox basis, so no details of any submitted tenders can be viewed until the expiry date has passed.

This isn't their first rodeo.

No public. Only private.

Fair enough

smellyoldboot

The Dublin Children's Hospital. Give it 10 years we'll be building another so that anyone non Dublin based can actually reach the bloody thing in less than 4 hours.

km991148

smellyoldboot wrote: »

The Dublin Children's Hospital. Give it 10 years we'll be building another so that anyone non Dublin based can actually reach the bloody thing in less than 4 hours.

That be nice - the non Dublin one will be open before the Dublin one!

I completely forgot this was a thing btw - never mind a thing that hasn't even been built.

Snotty

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

smellyoldboot

Snotty wrote: »

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

Sure aren't you up from the sticks like. You should be happy to park out out at the Red Cow or the likes and ride the junkie cart into town with your family. Maybe your car will even still be there when you get back.

bigroad

I worked with this building company before and I will say two things about them ,they are handy at getting government contracts and they are the greatest shower of scumbags I have ever m..
...

Muahahaha

Snotty wrote: »

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

And to make matters worse when the Childrens Hospital is complete the Coastguard wont be able to land their helicopters there, you couldnt make it up.

Fuascailteoir

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

It isin't just ambulances though. It is children that need to be driven to appointments. Getting across can be a nightmare

Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.

Snotty wrote: »

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?

Eric Cartman

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.



Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?

by the red cow park and ride or similar would have been nice.

look at the beacon, the hermitage, blanchardstown, Tallaght hospitals, all just off the motorway, easily got to with public transport and loads of parking. building a hospital more than 1km from the M50 should never have been considered for this.

y0ssar1an22

bigroad wrote: »

I worked with this building company before and I will say two things about them ,they are handy at getting government contracts and they are the greatest shower of scumbags I have ever m..
...

if they are who i am thinking about (Hg), the same goes for any government contract.

when you know the tab is on the government (the tax payer), you make hay while the sun is shining. the government need to negotiate better contracts. like negotiate into the contract the price of labour and steel so Pascal and the boys can hedge.

just seems nonsensical to me how it can be so over budget. have at a minimum a fixed priced contract.

whats the reason for the massive over spend?

Muahahaha

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.

Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?

Connolly Hospital in Blanch was the other option where they have acres of green space for future expansions and where Coastguard helicopters could have landed which they cant do at the new Childrens Hospital in St James, there isnt the space and the helicopter pad to be installed there cannot hold the weight of them. Meaning children with severe and urgent brain injuries may not get to the hospital on time because the helicopter cannot land there. You would have thought this would be a key requirement on where to locate the hospital but no it wasnt.

That aside from a population perspective around 1.1m people live inside the M50 and 3.8m live outside it. It can take as long to travel from Lucan to the city centre as it does to travel from Lucan to Athlone. Ambulances coming from other areas of the country outside the M50 are going to have a battle to get through traffic at a time when every minute counts.

Nekarsulm

Apart from the location, and the limitations caused by the site, the biggest problem is that it won't increase bed capacity in the slightest.
380 beds in individual rooms and 93 day beds.
So about 485 bed spaces, about the same number as will be closed in Crumlin, Temple Street and the Childrens Unit in Tallagh.

Jinglejangle69

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Apart from the location, and the limitations caused by the site, the biggest problem is that it won't increase bed capacity in the slightest.
380 beds in individual rooms and 93 day beds.
So about 485 bed spaces, about the same number as will be closed in Crumlin, Temple Street and the Childrens Unit in Tallagh.

Ia there a shortage of beds at the moment?

Larbre34

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.

Annnnnnnd bullshyt. Take it from someone with actual experience with tenders.

Mr_Muffin

Is it to late to down tools are stop pumping money into this scam?

Personally, I feel it should have been built on one of the green sites around this general area:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3638795,-6.4278286,1588m/data=!3m1!1e3

(I'm not overly clued into dublin, but from Google maps that area looks unused)


Buy all the green space, and start putting in plans to turn the area into a 'medical quarter' of sorts. Stick the Children's Hospital in, and draw up the plans for multiple more buildings to be built around it, as and when the time comes. Then when we need to build any new public health buildings, for whatever uses, they have space beside the Children's Hospital to do it. The population is growing and growing again, so there'll be need to build more hospital and medical/care facilities in the coming decades. Having a plan to bunch them all together, along with an ambulance base, large car park, etc. just makes sense to me.

It's also right beside the M50 and M4.

Journey time from to there from..
Dublin Port: 20mins
Drogheda: 40mins
Athlone: 1hr 15mins
Galway: 2hr 5mins
Cork: 2hr 45mins

Almost every journey would be 90% motorway, no parking issues, no queues of traffic, no pedestrians, and close enough to large parts of Dublin that that sticking it on a couple of bus routes wouldn't be disruptive.

But sure, I'm no expert.

Rubberchikken

Of course it's a coc#up by all involved.
There's too much money in the making for it to be a genuine good for the kids/country project.

There appears to be only one construction company in this country. The politicians are a bunch of idiots and as for the consultants. Words fail me.

This is a tribunal waiting to happen.
Yet one more waste if money and keep some should be retired judge in business.

AutoTuning

It's an extremely expensive illustration of "Too many cooks."

You can't manage a project like that. It was pulled around by endless political and apolitical lobbies and even moved site.

From what I can see they forgot the core reason for the project: to treat sick children. Instead there were debates about everything else.

Whole thing could have been built simply and quickly on a green field site, perhaps next to one of the suburban hospitals with space, or near by.

Everything about it was a fiasco and white elephant from the start and it's starved other urgent projects from capital funds.

crazy 88

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.



Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?

Is that you Mr. Donnelly?

The central area you reference is surrounded by soul crushing gridlock all day, not just rush hour. I know as I live near St James's hospital. There's no justification for locating it where it is. And no one will be bringing a sick child on a bus or the Luas to get there.

Guy:Incognito

Eric Cartman wrote: »

by the red cow park and ride or similar would have been nice.

look at the beacon, the hermitage, blanchardstown, Tallaght hospitals, all just off the motorway, easily got to with public transport and loads of parking. building a hospital more than 1km from the M50 should never have been considered for this.

Tallaght is a 4km drive from the ballymount junction and 5 from Spawell going by Google maps

Guy:Incognito

Muahahaha wrote: »

.

That aside from a population perspective around 1.1m people live inside the M50 and 3.8m live outside it. It can take as long to travel from Lucan to the city centre as it does to travel from Lucan to Athlone. Ambulances coming from other areas of the country outside the M50 are going to have a battle to get through traffic at a time when every minute counts.

St James' isn't in the city centre.

crazy 88

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

St James' isn't in the city centre.

city/city centre...does it matter? The area is inaccessible.

Victor

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded. That's common enough. Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on.

Does that make you part of it?

y0ssar1an22

AutoTuning wrote: »

It's an extremely expensive illustration of "Too many cooks."

You can't manage a project like that. It was pulled around by endless political and apolitical lobbies and even moved site.

From what I can see they forgot the core reason for the project: to treat sick children. Instead there were debates about everything else.

Whole thing could have been built simply and quickly on a green field site, perhaps next to one of the suburban hospitals with space, or near by.

Everything about it was a fiasco and white elephant from the start and it's starved other urgent projects from capital funds.

there will prob be an inquiry in a few years,maybe a tribuneral that'll cost millions.

one of the biggest things, that no big party will address, is the gravy train they are on.

they're all as bad. until career politicians are done away with nothing will change.

AndrewJRenko

tdf7187 wrote: »

. The National Lottery raised about €500m selling price. We are now told that the children's hospital will cost six times that.

Who told us that figure you're quoting for the total cost please?

AndrewJRenko

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

It isin't just ambulances though. It is children that need to be driven to appointments. Getting across can be a nightmare

You do know that not everyone drives or has access to a car, right? We need a hospital with great public transport connectivity, as is standard in UK and around the world. The Luas literally runs beside this building.

Dempo1

I wouldn't agree it's a scam but certainly questions need to be asked of vested interests, various hospital management boards and not least how Government goes about the procurement process. Time and time again, Politicians show their ineptitude when comes to negotiating and implementing major construction projects. I can not understand how lessons never learned.

The NTMA has by all accounts managed the states long term finances successfully, WTF can't a competent procurement agency not be in place to deal with major infrastructure projects. If this were a private development does anyone seriously think the contractor would be pulling stunts like those reported widely.

It's a national and financial disgrace and as extreme as it may be at this late stage, it should be stopped immediately and someone competent put in place to sort this debacle out. We've essentially reached an extraordinary situation were costs will continue to spiral with no repercussions, in essence the state is allowing the contractors to charge whatever it likes, knowing full well there's not a single government politician willing to say STOP.

Wanderer78

Hellotonever wrote:

Pal pick up the phone. 2008 is calling.

08 was caused by private debt, nothing to do with public debt, but the hospital shows the skullduggery between governments and major contractors, there's no fcuking way no one knew the orginal quote was gonna work

Pete_Cavan

There are obvious issues with the way the project was procured, tendering the ground works and basement first was always going to lead to whoever won that winning the larger contract for the hospital itself. Things weren't helped by it being won by the most confrontational and greedy contractor out there. All contractors will try to ride the client but only BAM put sand in the vaseline. That doesn't mean that the hospital is not in the right location.

The NCH had to be co-located with a suitably specialised adult hospital so all these on the M50 ideas are not realistic. There is a huge economy of scale aspect to complex, highly specialised healthcare. The necessary equipment and facilities are extremely expensive and have to be well utilised and the staff are very specialised so can't be doing other jobs some of the time. Its too expensive to replicate facilities and having to transfer patients between locations is not efficient. James’s has the widest range of subspecialities and the highest level of clinical complexity of all the adult hospitals in the country and provides a number of national services. You can't replicate most of this elsewhere so having the NCH elsewhere would mean a inferior hospital.

The NCH building will house new campus-wide facilities for James's which are currently substandard and would require upgrading/replacement were they not being provided by the NCH. The theatres etc. in the Childrens Hospital are intended to be used by the new maternity hospital (Coombe replacement) which is to be built next to it so that such facilities dont have to be replicated there. Also worth mentioning that there is the new South Dublin Ambulance Station just down the road already in place. The costs of the NCH go beyond the hospital itself.

The thing about traffic here is not as important as some make out. The M50 is already overloaded and adding another major hospital is not going to do it any favours. Not every sick child in the country gets brought straight to the NCH, it is for extremely sick children requiring highly specialist care which is generally planned. The vast majority of children will still be treated elsewhere. The satellite centres are in place which mean outpatient appointments dont have to be in the NCH itself. James's has Luas beside it, Dublin Bus running there it, Heuston station not far away and has a huge population within walking/cycling distance which will at least mean the huge staff that is required to run it don't all have to pile onto the M50 to get there.

sydthebeat

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Think of it more as a monument to incompetence

100%

The people who put together the design and tender process didn't have anything near enough experience for a once in 100 year project such as this.

screamer

Sorry OP but you’re talking about something of which you don’t understand. The reason for the cost overrun is the adversarial tendering process which our government has put in place. The process basically drives for the lowest tender, so contractors have to work to that. However, there are unseens and unknowns and having seen some of the government tender requests myself they are a joke. Hence these have to be claimed for as the job progresses. This is where the contractor actually balances their books, as often the initial contract price is so low, it is not commercially viable, however, if the contractor priced it to take into account all it could envisage being needed, they wouldn’t get a look in at the tender award stage. Then there are punitive clawback claims for the government to force the contractor to deliver on time, not to mention changes to the spec that can come up ad hoc to add to costs. So, blame the process if you must and remember who put that in place.
BTW no other contractor would touch that site if Bam was removed anyways so that’s not a solution either.

facehugger99

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.

And from someone with actual experience of tender processes, I can tell you that's complete bollox.

salmocab

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are obvious issues with the way the project was procured, tendering the ground works and basement first was always going to lead to whoever won that winning the larger contract for the hospital itself. Things weren't helped by it being won by the most confrontational and greedy contractor out there. All contractors will try to ride the client but only BAM put sand in the vaseline. That doesn't mean that the hospital is not in the right location.

The NCH had to be co-located with a suitably specialised adult hospital so all these on the M50 ideas are not realistic. There is a huge economy of scale aspect to complex, highly specialised healthcare. The necessary equipment and facilities are extremely expensive and have to be well utilised and the staff are very specialised so can't be doing other jobs some of the time. Its too expensive to replicate facilities and having to transfer patients between locations is not efficient. James’s has the widest range of subspecialities and the highest level of clinical complexity of all the adult hospitals in the country and provides a number of national services. You can't replicate most of this elsewhere so having the NCH elsewhere would mean a inferior hospital.

The NCH building will house new campus-wide facilities for James's which are currently substandard and would require upgrading/replacement were they not being provided by the NCH. The theatres etc. in the Childrens Hospital are intended to be used by the new maternity hospital (Coombe replacement) which is to be built next to it so that such facilities dont have to be replicated there. Also worth mentioning that there is the new South Dublin Ambulance Station just down the road already in place. The costs of the NCH go beyond the hospital itself.

The thing about traffic here is not as important as some make out. The M50 is already overloaded and adding another major hospital is not going to do it any favours. Not every sick child in the country gets brought straight to the NCH, it is for extremely sick children requiring highly specialist care which is generally planned. The vast majority of children will still be treated elsewhere. The satellite centres are in place which mean outpatient appointments dont have to be in the NCH itself. James's has Luas beside it, Dublin Bus running there it, Heuston station not far away and has a huge population within walking/cycling distance which will at least mean the huge staff that is required to run it don't all have to pile onto the M50 to get there.

I agree about the medical end but I said at the time that for a long term project moving out to say the irfu land at new lands would have allowed James’s to follow out and the Coombe which was part of the tri-location plan. Parts of James’s are quite old and buildings like these have life spans. A long term plan to move all 3 whilst costly would have freed up both the Coombe and James’s site for housing and money to help offset the cost.
I understand it would have cost more in the long run but I think the payoff would have been worth it.
Rialto is no place for a hospital, a site with room for expansion and grounds for walking or just getting some air in should have been part of the equation.

Ash.J.Williams

Snotty wrote: »

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

and that is nowhere near the city

Yuser.

sydthebeat wrote: »

100%

The people who put together the design and tender process didn't have anything near enough experience for a once in 100 year project such as this.

It's not that big of deal

It's just a children's hospital

Pete_Cavan

salmocab wrote: »

I agree about the medical end but I said at the time that for a long term project moving out to say the irfu land at new lands would have allowed James’s to follow out and the Coombe which was part of the tri-location plan. Parts of James’s are quite old and buildings like these have life spans. A long term plan to move all 3 whilst costly would have freed up both the Coombe and James’s site for housing and money to help offset the cost.
I understand it would have cost more in the long run but I think the payoff would have been worth it.
Rialto is no place for a hospital, a site with room for expansion and grounds for walking or just getting some air in should have been part of the equation.

Moving James's would take decades and cost way more. It's not just building cost, medical equipment is extremely expensive, nevermind the high end specialist equipment and systems used in James's which you'd have to buy all new for the new location and both continuing to operate both for a period for a managed switch over, creating duplication and huge extra costs. Just imagine the cost of building the NCH plus a new most specialised hospital in the country and a new maternity hospital all at the same time! The risks associated with it would be unacceptable, any delay would have enormous cost and health care implications.

Talking about selling the James's site isnt that simple. There are a number of heritage buildings there and newer buildings, particularly the recently completed MISA building, would have to remain in use, otherwise you piss away tens of millions of euro already invested. You'd have to incur the significant cost of demolishing and clearing what you are selling, or else it would be accounted for in any bids. It would be better to sell the green site on the M50 which would be much more attractive to developers!

On a 650million project, to come in 100million less than the nearest competitors with their track record should have caused arched eyebrows in the appraisal team.

The whole farce is a monument to poor project management from day1

ILoveYourVibes

Imagine if it falls down.

I mean it feels like fate.

ExMachina1000

Larbre34 wrote: »

Annnnnnnd bullshyt. Take it from someone with actual experience with tenders.

Definitely not bullshyt. Perhaps we are talking about projects or contracts of a different scale.
From someone with experience in the tendering process

The whole "I didn't experience it so it does exist" angle