Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

Hellotonever · 21-12-2020 12:30am #1

BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! How can a children's hospital for the welfare of our kids possibly be a scam? We need the best and most expensive care in the world!
Yes more expensive than every palace! And more expensive than the pentagon!

Dont worry the taxpayer will foot it!

But lets be real here. Its a scam. There is no way to justify paying so much for a three storey hospital. Its not even that specialized. There are more specialized hospitals that have been renovated multiple times and the cost never went past 1.5 billion!

Its corruption at its finest. BAM and certain party members are 100% laughing all the way to the bank. They're doing this in front of you, the taxpayer and your instinctual reaction is probably to defend this right?

After all how can it be a scam if its legal?

Right?

Pal pick up the phone. 2008 is calling.

JeffKenna · 21-12-2020 12:31am

I forgot about this.

ExMachina1000 · 21-12-2020 12:31am

Think of it more as a monument to incompetence

rob316 · 21-12-2020 12:33am

You can add the cork events centre to this too. Keeps going over budget before a brick is laid.

AndrewJRenko · 21-12-2020 12:37am

Hellotonever wrote: »

BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN! How can a children's hospital for the welfare of our kids possibly be a scam? We need the best and most expensive care in the world!
Yes more expensive than every palace! And more expensive than the pentagon!

Dont worry the taxpayer will foot it!

But lets be real here. Its a scam. There is no way to justify paying so much for a three storey hospital. Its not even that specialized. There are more specialized hospitals that have been renovated multiple times and the cost never went past 1.5 billion!

Its corruption at its finest. BAM and certain party members are 100% laughing all the way to the bank. They're doing this in front of you, the taxpayer and your instinctual reaction is probably to defend this right?

After all how can it be a scam if its legal?

Right?

Pal pick up the phone. 2008 is calling.

Which party members were involved - the party in power at the time the decision to go ahead was made? Or the party in power at the time the site was chosen? Or the party in power at the time the contract was awarded? Or the party in power at the time the decision was made to take BAM to the High Court?

How do you reckon that the corrupt party members managed to get dozens of officials to go along with the scam? How did they make sure that no other builder submitted a slightly lower tender?

Eric Cartman · 21-12-2020 12:40am

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

ExMachina1000 · 21-12-2020 12:41am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Which party members were involved - the party in power at the time the decision to go ahead was made? Or the party in power at the time the site was chosen? Or the party in power at the time the contract was awarded? Or the party in power at the time the decision was made to take BAM to the High Court?

How do you reckon that the corrupt party members managed to get dozens of officials to go along with the scam? How did they make sure that no other builder submitted a slightly lower tender?

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.

AndrewJRenko · 21-12-2020 12:49am

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.

How much experience do you have with public sector tendering?

It's fairly trivial to prevent this by not submitting your tender until the last minute.

Afaik, the eTenders system works on a lockbox basis, so no details of any submitted tenders can be viewed until the expiry date has passed.

This isn't their first rodeo.

political analyst · 21-12-2020 12:54am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

Isn't it the location the hospital consultants wanted? The project wouldn't have started if they had not been kept on board.

By the way, ambulances go through busy junctions all the time. I'm sure the paramedics can keep the child's condition stable until they get to the hospital.

tdf7187 · 21-12-2020 12:57am

It is, clearly and obviously, a massive, monstrous can of worms. Think about it - the National Lottery, which had never had a single issue in public ownership, was privatised with undue haste in 2014. We were told the public finances needed the money and that the funds raised would go to the children's hospital. The National Lottery raised about €500m selling price. We are now told that the children's hospital will cost six times that.

Jinglejangle69 · 21-12-2020 1:00am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think the hospital itself is a scam, but its location definitely is. In years to come there will almost certainly be a tribunal that will expose that somebody strongarmed that decision for their own gain and that the children in need of a hospital will have to suffer because it isn't correctly placed beside the M50 where it should always have been.

20 years and numerous reports recommended where it is now.

Who do you want to blame?

Fuascailteoir · 21-12-2020 1:04am

political analyst wrote: »

Isn't it the location the hospital consultants wanted? The project wouldn't have started if they had not been kept on board.

By the way, ambulances go through busy junctions all the time. I'm sure the paramedics can keep the child's condition stable until they get to the hospital.

It isin't just ambulances though. It is children that need to be driven to appointments. Getting across can be a nightmare

ExMachina1000 · 21-12-2020 1:05am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How much experience do you have with public sector tendering?

It's fairly trivial to prevent this by not submitting your tender until the last minute.

Afaik, the eTenders system works on a lockbox basis, so no details of any submitted tenders can be viewed until the expiry date has passed.

This isn't their first rodeo.

No public. Only private.

Fair enough

smellyoldboot · 21-12-2020 1:10am

The Dublin Children's Hospital. Give it 10 years we'll be building another so that anyone non Dublin based can actually reach the bloody thing in less than 4 hours.

km991148 · 21-12-2020 1:14am

smellyoldboot wrote: »

The Dublin Children's Hospital. Give it 10 years we'll be building another so that anyone non Dublin based can actually reach the bloody thing in less than 4 hours.

That be nice - the non Dublin one will be open before the Dublin one!

I completely forgot this was a thing btw - never mind a thing that hasn't even been built.

Snotty · 21-12-2020 1:19am

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

smellyoldboot · 21-12-2020 1:23am

Snotty wrote: »

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

Sure aren't you up from the sticks like. You should be happy to park out out at the Red Cow or the likes and ride the junkie cart into town with your family. Maybe your car will even still be there when you get back.

bigroad · 21-12-2020 1:26am

I worked with this building company before and I will say two things about them ,they are handy at getting government contracts and they are the greatest shower of scumbags I have ever m..
...

Muahahaha · 21-12-2020 1:28am

Snotty wrote: »

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

And to make matters worse when the Childrens Hospital is complete the Coastguard wont be able to land their helicopters there, you couldnt make it up.

[Deleted User] · 21-12-2020 1:34am

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

It isin't just ambulances though. It is children that need to be driven to appointments. Getting across can be a nightmare

Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.

Snotty wrote: »

I cannot tell you the anxiety I feel driving my daughter to Crumlin childrens hospital , getting into the city, fighting traffic, getting parked was truly painful, it was an unneeded worry when we had larger things to worry about, the new hospital will be worse.

Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?

Eric Cartman · 21-12-2020 1:39am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.

Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?

by the red cow park and ride or similar would have been nice.

look at the beacon, the hermitage, blanchardstown, Tallaght hospitals, all just off the motorway, easily got to with public transport and loads of parking. building a hospital more than 1km from the M50 should never have been considered for this.

y0ssar1an22 · 21-12-2020 1:41am

bigroad wrote: »

I worked with this building company before and I will say two things about them ,they are handy at getting government contracts and they are the greatest shower of scumbags I have ever m..
...

if they are who i am thinking about (Hg), the same goes for any government contract.

when you know the tab is on the government (the tax payer), you make hay while the sun is shining. the government need to negotiate better contracts. like negotiate into the contract the price of labour and steel so Pascal and the boys can hedge.

just seems nonsensical to me how it can be so over budget. have at a minimum a fixed priced contract.

whats the reason for the massive over spend?

Muahahaha · 21-12-2020 1:55am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.

Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?

Connolly Hospital in Blanch was the other option where they have acres of green space for future expansions and where Coastguard helicopters could have landed which they cant do at the new Childrens Hospital in St James, there isnt the space and the helicopter pad to be installed there cannot hold the weight of them. Meaning children with severe and urgent brain injuries may not get to the hospital on time because the helicopter cannot land there. You would have thought this would be a key requirement on where to locate the hospital but no it wasnt.

That aside from a population perspective around 1.1m people live inside the M50 and 3.8m live outside it. It can take as long to travel from Lucan to the city centre as it does to travel from Lucan to Athlone. Ambulances coming from other areas of the country outside the M50 are going to have a battle to get through traffic at a time when every minute counts.

Nekarsulm · 21-12-2020 1:56am

Apart from the location, and the limitations caused by the site, the biggest problem is that it won't increase bed capacity in the slightest.
380 beds in individual rooms and 93 day beds.
So about 485 bed spaces, about the same number as will be closed in Crumlin, Temple Street and the Childrens Unit in Tallagh.

Jinglejangle69 · 21-12-2020 1:59am

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Apart from the location, and the limitations caused by the site, the biggest problem is that it won't increase bed capacity in the slightest.
380 beds in individual rooms and 93 day beds.
So about 485 bed spaces, about the same number as will be closed in Crumlin, Temple Street and the Childrens Unit in Tallagh.

Ia there a shortage of beds at the moment?

Larbre34 · 21-12-2020 2:00am

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

From experience with tenders I can tell you that it's not uncommon for one party to be given the details of the other tenders as they come in. All done as a favour of course with a reward if the contract is awarded.
That's common enough.
Not saying that's what happened here obviously but it definitely goes on. Cronyism built this country my friend.

Annnnnnnd bullshyt. Take it from someone with actual experience with tenders.

Mr_Muffin · 21-12-2020 2:05am

Is it to late to down tools are stop pumping money into this scam?

[Deleted User] · 21-12-2020 2:08am

Personally, I feel it should have been built on one of the green sites around this general area:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3638795,-6.4278286,1588m/data=!3m1!1e3

(I'm not overly clued into dublin, but from Google maps that area looks unused)

Buy all the green space, and start putting in plans to turn the area into a 'medical quarter' of sorts. Stick the Children's Hospital in, and draw up the plans for multiple more buildings to be built around it, as and when the time comes. Then when we need to build any new public health buildings, for whatever uses, they have space beside the Children's Hospital to do it. The population is growing and growing again, so there'll be need to build more hospital and medical/care facilities in the coming decades. Having a plan to bunch them all together, along with an ambulance base, large car park, etc. just makes sense to me.

It's also right beside the M50 and M4.

Journey time from to there from..
Dublin Port: 20mins
Drogheda: 40mins
Athlone: 1hr 15mins
Galway: 2hr 5mins
Cork: 2hr 45mins

Almost every journey would be 90% motorway, no parking issues, no queues of traffic, no pedestrians, and close enough to large parts of Dublin that that sticking it on a couple of bus routes wouldn't be disruptive.

But sure, I'm no expert.

Rubberchikken · 21-12-2020 2:11am

Of course it's a coc#up by all involved.
There's too much money in the making for it to be a genuine good for the kids/country project.

There appears to be only one construction company in this country. The politicians are a bunch of idiots and as for the consultants. Words fail me.

This is a tribunal waiting to happen.
Yet one more waste if money and keep some should be retired judge in business.

AutoTuning · 21-12-2020 2:12am

It's an extremely expensive illustration of "Too many cooks."

You can't manage a project like that. It was pulled around by endless political and apolitical lobbies and even moved site.

From what I can see they forgot the core reason for the project: to treat sick children. Instead there were debates about everything else.

Whole thing could have been built simply and quickly on a green field site, perhaps next to one of the suburban hospitals with space, or near by.

Everything about it was a fiasco and white elephant from the start and it's starved other urgent projects from capital funds.

crazy 88 · 21-12-2020 2:22am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Its central for a reason. No person needs to travel the entire lenght of the county and the closer to the city, the higher the population density. Possible smaller centres dotted around the outskirts could have worked but that wasnt on the table.

Its 3km from the red cow junction. where exactly would you like it placed?

Is that you Mr. Donnelly?

The central area you reference is surrounded by soul crushing gridlock all day, not just rush hour. I know as I live near St James's hospital. There's no justification for locating it where it is. And no one will be bringing a sick child on a bus or the Luas to get there.

Lets be real here: The Children's Hospital is a scam

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